The NFL channel had a special on this. I understand the top 3 were-
1) the 80s Saints
2) Pittsburg's Steel curtain of the 70s
3) The Giants with LT, Banks, Carson and Reasons
Maybe I am a homer, but I think that the Giants group is the best in history. LT is the greatest LB, ever to play the game, and adding Carson and Banks makes them unbeatable.
I watched the show but missed the saints. The steel curtain was probably the best. then LT and the boys.
The funniest thing on that show was the guy who said hamm was a better LB than LT. HE had to be smoking something. He said that LT was "only a pass rusher" Apparently he didn't watch many Giants games in the 80's.
Quote from: GiantJay on July 05, 2007, 02:02:22 PM
I watched the show but missed the saints. The steel curtain was probably the best. then LT and the boys.
The funniest thing on that show was the guy who said hamm was a better LB than LT. HE had to be smoking something. He said that LT was "only a pass rusher" Apparently he didn't watch many Giants games in the 80's.
Jay,
My guess is he only watched the highlight reels so he missed the many other aspects of his game. I would rate them
1) Giants
2) Pittsburg (I would not quibble with those that feel these need to be reversed)
3) Saints
Had to reread the post. You obviously mean the era of the 80's for the Saints not the 1980 season itself where the Saints staggered to a 1W - 15L record.
And don't forget Pepper Johnson to go with LT, Banks, Reasons, and Carson.
Pepper was one of my personal favorites, so that makes me a homer too!
Wow. IMO, the Steelers. Russell, Ham, Lambert. The greatest group in terms of dominance as a unit. The Steelers simply couldn't be scored upon with that group for the most part and won 4 Supes with the enormous help of Joe Greene, LC Greenwood, Dwight Holmes, etc.
Quote from: dasher on July 05, 2007, 02:08:19 PM
Had to reread the post. You obviously mean the era of the 80's for the Saints not the 1980 season itself where the Saints staggered to a 1W - 15L record.
And don't forget Pepper Johnson to go with LT, Banks, Reasons, and Carson.
Pepper was one of my personal favorites, so that makes me a homer too!
Yeah that's right Dasher. The Saints group would be-
Mills, Swilling, Jackson and Johnson
It's never entirely fair to compare one unit of a defense to another while ignoring the influence of the other seven or eight players such as in the case of the Giants and Saints four man LB corps, or pre-Cowher Steelers' 3 man.
However, while I think that it could be a toss up between those Giants and Steelers units, I can pick the Giants without any hint of embarassment. However, as much as I appreciate the talent of that Saints unit, I have to consider that they never quite got it done. Perhaps, it's unfair to them, but that's the way diddly poo crumbles, sometimes.
The problem inherent in all such comparisons is that in elevating one, it can't help but appear to slightly diminish the others. Of course, the purpose is to engender a bit of harmless controversy, not to trigger some long forgotten bonus clause in those player's contracts.
Cheers!
Don't forget Bell-Lanier-Lynch of Henry Stram's Chiefs. 2 of those guys are HOFers and Golden Domer Lynch was quite good as well.
Robinson-Nitschke-Caffey Packers of Lombardi. Same Deal. 2 HOFers.
Leroy Caffey a bit of a drop but still formidable.
In the era of the 4-3, the middle linebackers tended to be the glamour guys. While in the 3-4, the pluggers were undervalued.
Harry Carson was a guy who made the transition from 4-3 to 3-4 fairly quickly, but it did take him some time. When the Steelers went to it, Jack Lambert wanted to retire.
painter,
No slight, of course, to the Jints. No surprise to me when he got to NY. I was there watching the amazing LT at UNC in the late fall of 80 sacking QB Tol Avery, a option mess under Monte Kiffin, then a fun alternative since Bo Rein took his recruiting trip to the next world. LT reset pass protection. The game, of course, but the Steelers are the greatest group. Stats are on their side.
Those comparisons are funny.
It doesn't take into consideration that the steelers had one of, if not the best front 4.
The Giants had a good front 3.
I think the Giants had the best LB crew hands down. Even if it was Banks, Carson and LT with some 4 man Dline.
Nobody does it better.......
Although I watched football in the 1970's I was too young to understand anything more than first downs and touchdowns. So, I only have the historians (including many here) and my uncle from Pittsburgh when referencing the great Steelers teams of that era. So, I guess I can't truly say in my opinion if that group was as good as the Saints and Giants of a decade later.
The Saints corps might be considered better if they had actually won anything after the 16 game season ended. But, unlike the Giants and Steelers, they had very little help from their secondary, their Defensive line and even less from their offense.
"The Field Mouse" Sam Mills a Long Branch and Mount Clare State graduate, is with out a doubt one of the best linebackers both on the field and off the NFL has ever seen.
Anyone can look back at stats and totaly miss the reasons why the Giants were the best; with the game on the line one of these four guys almost always came up with a big play when the Giants needed it most e.g. LT stripping Rodger Craig to set up the winning field goal when the 49res already had their bags packed for Tampa.
We could start a thread just recounting these moments.
here are two teams that no one will mention, for many of us forget how good these units were.
1. la rams - jack pardee, marion potios, and I am sorry I can't
remember his name, but this uint backup the fame fearsome foursome, who could do their thing due to these fine lbs.
2. the packers - nitzske, dave robinson, and leroy caffey.
The fearsome foursome was the rams DLINE. Deacon Jones, Merlon Olsen, NY GIANT Rosie Grier and Someone named lundy.
I would rate the steel curtain above the 86 Gmen. Harry Carson was great but without LT the Giants were no where near as good as the steel curtain without any one of their LBS. The Giants are a close second. I thought the Raiders with Millen and Hendrix were pretty mean too.
But to say Ham is even in LT's class is simply ignorant. The only guy to ever come close to being as good as LT is Ray lewis and in my opinion he does not beat out LT.
The top 5 were (if I remember correctly):
1) The 80's Saints - Mills, Swilling, Jackson, Johnson
2) The 70's Steelers - Ham, Lambert, Russell
3) The 80's Giants - Banks, Reasons, Carson, Taylor (honestly, how many of you heard Pat Summerall's voice right now when you read it?)
4) The late 60's Chiefs - Bell, Lynch, and Lanier
5) The 80's Bears - Marshall, Singletary and Wilson
In my opinion, you could rank any one of these units #1 and make a strong case for it. I personally thought they (NFL Network) would go with the Bears #1, the Steelers #2, and the Giants #3. I was a little surprised to see the Saints corps listed that high, but they made a compelling case for them.
How about Brad Van Pelt, Harry Carson and Brian Kelly.
Now that was a good group of linebackers who will NEVER get their due.
The Giants LB corps was what the Saints aspired to be. This really irritates me that they are ahead of the Giants.
My vote goes to LT, Harry, Reasons, and Banks. That said, recognition should go to the Kansas City Chiefs terrific trio from the 60s/70s: Jim Lynch, Willie Lanier, and Bobby Bell. Both Lanier and Bell are Hall of Fame members.
Jim Lynch
(http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos/Lynch,Jim1.jpg)
Willie Lanier
(http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos4/Lanier,Willie1.jpg)
Bobby Bell
(http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos3/Bell,Bobby1.jpg)
BigHitter
No slight to the Steel Curtain. But the linebacking trio of Andy Russell, Jack Lambert, and Jam Ham only played together as a unit for two seasons. Lambert was a rookie in 1974, the Steelers first Super Bowl win, a 16-6 victory over the Vikings. Russell retired after the 1975 Super Bowl, a 21-17 victory over the Cowboys. Fourth year player Loren Toews took over Russell's WILL position in 1976. The Steelers added rookie OLB Dennis Winston in 1977. Toews and Winston split time at the WILL position during the Steelers '78 and '79 Super Bowl seasons.
Remember also that the Steeler defense featured HOFers defensive tackle Joe Greene and cornerback Mel Blount. Strong arguments for the Hall could also be made for DE L.C. Greenwood and DBs Donnie Shell and Mike Wagner. Although the Giant DL was certainly outstanding during the 1980s (in my mind, Leonard Marshall and George Martin were at least as good as Greenwood), none have ever been mentioned for HOF selection. And although the Giants did have some very solid players in the secondary (Mark Collins was a terrific player), none matched the HOF caliber play of Blount, Shell, Wagner, etal.
Andy Russell
(http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos5/Russell,Andy4.jpg)
Jack Lambert
(http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos/Lambert,Jack5.jpg)
Jack Ham
(http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos4/Ham,Jack3.jpg)
BigHitter.
For a couple of years including their title year,
the Bear trio of Singletary,Marshall.and Wilson,were just about as close to being perfect that a linebacking unit could get.
The Giant group may have had a longer tenure playing together at a high level.
Kiwi,Pierce, and Mitchell,will make us forget those units,and set the standard for excellence this year, and I'll believe that even if my intervention sessions succeed.
Slick,
You hit the nail on the head. The Bear trio of Marshall, Singletary, and Wilson played together as a unit for only three years: '85-'87. Note that this includes the strike-shortened 1987 season. Marshall signed with the Redskins in 1988. Wilson's career effectively ended with an injury in 1987. He sat out the entire 1988 season and, after a one game stint with the Raiders in '89, retired.
TheBigHitter
I think that Bear trio of 85 benefited by scheme more than any other crew mentioned. Marshall went to the Redskins. In a different defense. I never saw him make a play against the Giants. He must have done something against them, I know, but I can't remember it. Wilson is remembered in Syracuse as a guy who transfered out on Maloney.
I think when you look at Carson's career, you have to respect how he made the transition from 4-3 Mike to 3-4 plugger. It wasn't easy playing that position for Parcells. You had to take the guards straight on. Singletary could have never done it for the Giants. Lambert essentially retired because of the Steelers switching to a 3-4. He lost all the juice for playing and went up into the hills surrounding Pittsburgh to live.
Big Hitter: I had the Packer trio listed above. I think you have to include them as well. 2 HOFers and multiple league championships. I really can't say how good Leroy Caffey was other than remembering that he kept Tommy Joe Crutcher on the bench. But I don't he was that big a drop off from the other two.
Bobby Bell and Dave Robinson were the prototypes of the size-speed-hit OLB position. They were excellent athletes who presaged the age of guys like LT. Put Ted Hendricks in there as well, though he was always freakish because of his height.
The Bears were ranked number 5. They had one admitted weakness. They couldn't play pass coverage. One of the KC LB Corps (I think the 70s) was number 4.
I got to watch the show last night in detail. Here is the reasoning I think went into the rankings.
80s Saints- I think this was part pity ranking. I think the show's producers felt bad that such a great group never won a play off game, much less a championship and that wasn't there fault. Plus one year all 4 of their LBs went to the pro bowl (something that has never happened before or after).
The Steel Curtain- I think they were impressed with the domination of the Steelers in the 70s and that is what pushed them ahead of the Giants.
And taken as an entire unit, MG, the Steel Curtain was probably the defense that dominated over the longest length of time. The Saints defense is probably an idiosyncratic selection based on sentiment, as you suggest. They were excellent. But they didn't win anything. And a further insult to that group will be that pro football's HOF is historically not kind to players who didn't play in championship-type games. Nothing like football or basketball. I think that will change in the ensuing years. I can't even think of the fourth guy: Swilling, Jackson, Mills and who?
Johnson was the 4th.
Steve,
Ricky Jackson, Vaughn Johnson, Sam Mills, and Pat Swilling.
Thanks fellas. I remember him now.
Quote from: Iamboo on July 05, 2007, 10:31:13 PM
The top 5 were (if I remember correctly):
3) The 80's Giants - Banks, Reasons, Carson, Taylor (honestly, how many of you heard Pat Summerall's voice right now when you read it?)
I can, no doubt. :)
From 1974 to 1990, I think the Giants had the most consistent LB unit in football. Start with Brad Van Pelt (All-Pro player for years), Brian Kelly and eventual HOF in Harry Carson. Then LT, the greatest OLB ever into the mix. Then also add capable role players like Andy Headen and Byron Hunt in the early 80's. Plus in the mid 80's, Carl Banks, Gary Reasons, Pepper Johnson, Steve DeOssie, etc. Truly a dependable and outstanding unit.
This is excluding Jesse Armstead, too.
Once again a thread which has meandered far from its subject and intent. But no harm done, I suppose.
Cheers!
I don't get that channel over here but read the thread with great interest as LB is the position I love to watch the most.
The fact that some struggled to remember Vaughan Johnson as the 'other' backer for the famed 'Dome Patrol' was something I found interesting.
At times in the late 80's watching the Saints LB corps play was like watching the Giants LB corps play but with Johnson in Banks' role as far as fans of other teams were concerned i.e. he was the best LB on his team in many games but because of who also played that position - in VJ's case paired on the inside with Sam Mills, Banks of course paired with LT on the outside - it seems that he never found himself in the glare of the media spotlight.
And this was a guy who made the Pro Bowl 4 straight years because the players and coaches sure as hell knew who he was!
One thing I noted missing from this entire thread was the mention of a single LB corps in the discussion from teams in the 1990's and particularly from the new millennium.
Is this because of the prevalence of the 4-3 system from the 1990's onwards? The use of more 3 WR sets which take an LB off the field about 1/3rd of first downs nowadays? Or is it simply because the LB's of today greatest trait is speed rather than intimidatory power?
To be honest only the Ravens of 2000 (Lewis, Boulware and Sharper) even came close to the sort of dominance seen from the Giants, Bears and Saints corps of the 80's.
Thoughts?
Ceri: It's one half about frequently seeing the strong-side backer get pulled in the substitution packages, and one half about there not being any dominate foursomes or threesomes in the 90s. The Cowboys were the dominate team in the league until the mid-nineties. I don't think their linebackers would rate on the all-time list. The Ravens group that you mentioned was excellent.
In the 00s the most dominant, creative defense has been Little Bill's. He's had many versatile talents in his linebacking units over the years. But with the possible exception of Willie McGinest, there isn't the hint of stardom among the group. Underrated, solid, steady, tough. But nothing like having three potential Hall of Famers in the unit like the Giants did.
Ceri,
The Ravens LB corp came in number 10. I believe around 7 or 8 there was the Pittsburg LB corp of the 90s from the Blitzburg defenses of that era.
one group not mentioned on that program or in here.
1963 Bears - Joe Fortunato, Bill George, Larry Morris
This is easy, The Crunch Bunch! Van Pelt, Kelley, Carson and LT. Van Pelt was their best player of the 70's, LT, their best player of the 80's and Carson, who was never the best linebacker on any Giants team, but good enough for the HOF. Kelley wasn't too shabby either.
Quote from: Giant Jim on May 07, 2021, 07:52:30 PM
This is easy, The Crunch Bunch! Van Pelt, Kelley, Carson and LT. Van Pelt was their best player of the 70's, LT, their best player of the 80's and Carson, who was never the best linebacker on any Giants team, but good enough for the HOF. Kelley wasn't too shabby either.
I'll second Giant Jim. this one is number 1