I am not really looking to start any sort of heated debate here or make this a political thread. So please don't turn this into that. It is more just that I felt compelled to express my dismay about this event on a purely human level. There is major tragedy and human suffering on both sides here. I don't know what the solution is or if there ever will be one, but this latest flare-up has been particularly ugly, with many civilian deaths. It is truly tragic, and I wish it would stop.
Apologies - I meant to put this in the front porch. It won't let me move it or remove it.
I've spent a lot of time over there the past three years. There is so much to love about it. Tel Aviv may have the best food scene in the world. All the people I've met from all sides have been wonderful. There is an energy there that makes you feel alive. It is horrible what is going on, however, there are so many dynamics at play there that it is a very complicated problem with no easy solution in sight. Also, it is much more than a Jewish vs. Palestinean problem.
I hope peace comes to all there soon.
I was curious how this particular crisis got started. I had to look it up. In case you're like me, here is a good primer
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/explainer-how-did-latest-israeli-palestinian-crisis-emerge-n1267399
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 16, 2021, 10:25:51 AM
I was curious how this particular crisis got started. I had to look it up. In case you're like me, here is a good primer
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/explainer-how-did-latest-israeli-palestinian-crisis-emerge-n1267399
Yep. Seems to have been both the mosque confrontation as well as the evictions of the families. Given the intensity level that is already in place though, the bar for an outbreak of violence is sadly not very high.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 16, 2021, 10:25:51 AM
I was curious how this particular crisis got started. I had to look it up. In case you're like me, here is a good primer
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/explainer-how-did-latest-israeli-palestinian-crisis-emerge-n1267399
It started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior ot Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall. Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it.
Quote from: Philosophers on May 16, 2021, 11:10:43 PM
It started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior ot Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall. Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it.
I have to wonder how much this time we are seeing the tail wag the dog. Netanyahu has had all sorts of corruption scandals and he can't put together a coalition government. Nothing like war to unite a nation and make them forget about things.
While there has always been, and still is a strong element of antisemitism in our, anything but generous and fair-minded, Country, it is the Christian Right which somehow sees Israel, Jerusalem in particular, as central in their origins as bogus as that is. What truly is common in that regard is the hypocrisy and corruption shared by Netanyahu and Trump and their sycophants and stooges, both here and their. Unfortunately, as we have enough racists, xenophobes, and religious bigots, not to mention delusionals, influencing our politics, the current Administration is squeezed between left and right, the Dome of the Rock and the Hadith, Al-Aqsa Mosque.
Israel has tried to make peace with anyone who wishes that to happen. Israelis would jump for joy if all the mid-east countries would opt for peace instead of their mantra of wiping Israel off the face of the earth. As long as that is their belief, then Israel has every right to defend itself.
We see pix of all these weeping Palestinian civilians yet we don't see how they are the front people for all the militants who use these civilians as shields. You don't see Israel putting up children to shied any terrorist movements.
Hamas IS a terrorist group and anyone who doesn't see that isn't looking very hard. Terrorists are just that terrorists and they can try and make it any way they want but bottom line they are still terrorists hiding behind civilians.
Lenn, I have a few questions based on your last post and I admit I've not watched this closely in the news.
I wasn't aware of civilian shields with this latest flare up. Can you share a link to that news article?
I don't recall other Middle East countries commenting recently about wiping Israel off the face of the earth in regards to the recent events. Please share that link as well.
Hamas is a terrorist group but not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. Are you aware of the many Palestinian Christians living in Palestine?
What is your feeling on Jewish settlements in Palestine? Have those settlements expanded in recent years?
Quote from: Philosophers on May 16, 2021, 11:10:43 PM
It started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior ot Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall. Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it.
Okay...I wasn't going to get into this, but I cannot keep quiet. I will not get political, I promise.
To start with, my sister and her family live in Israel and have for many years. Therefore, I visit the country often. I haven't been over there in a couple years, but I am in constant contact with my sister. She has two kids who are currently serving in the IDF and are waist deep in the muck going on. Just as a note, I am not Jewish. My paternal and maternal surnames are both easily recognized as German and I am a mutt made up primarily of English, Dutch, German, French, Irish, and even a little Native American. My sister converted to Judaism and she is the only one in my family. Her husband is 100% Jewish, born in Jerusalem and a remnant of the survivors from the Holocaust (his grandfather the only survivor of his 9 siblings).
In order to understand how the current mess started, you have to understand the layout of the Temple Mount within the "Old City" of Jerusalem as well as some modern history and the current practices of the people.
The history: After the Six-Day War, Israel handed administration of the site back to the Waqf under Jordanian custodianship, while maintaining Israeli security control. The Waqf simply means that those who practice Islam have rights to practice their religion without general concern. This agreement has been upheld for many years.
The current practices: Islamic towers throughout Israel have powerful speakers that broadcast "calls to prayer" five times a day (dawn, noon, midafternoon, sunset, and nightfall). These calls to prayer amount to a male singing prayers in Arabic that usually last about ten minutes, but can last as long as a half hour. They are both beautiful and a bit eerie to those not used to it. They are very loud and if you are in Old Jerusalem and try to have a conversation during the prayers, it's like trying to have a conversation at a nightclub or a concert. As an example of how loud the prayers are, my parents had tickets to Israel from JFK on 9/11/2001. They did not make the flight! But as soon as air travel was lifted they were on the first flight over there. My mother was sitting in the back yard with my sister drinking coffee the following morning in Zichron Yaakov discussing the 9/11 tragedy when the calls to prayer were being sung (from about 10 miles away) and she wondered how something so pretty can also be attached to the horror going on in America. Anyway, the Islamic calls to prayer are part of everyday life in Israel. Not so much in Tel Aviv, but all around the rest of the country in every major city.
The layout of the Temple Mount ("where Gods collide"): There are three main areas that are all connected:
1: The Dome of the Rock (which is the most holy spot on the planet for Jews) is not a mosque or a temple, it is a "shrine" built in 1692 by Islamic powers after seizing Jerusalem from the Byzantine Empire. It was purposely constructed over the ruins of Solomon's Temple. It's called the Dome of the Rock because it is literally built over the rock where Abraham was going to sacrifice his son Isaac several thousand years ago. It is also where the original Jewish temple (Solomon's Temple) was built and where the Ark of the Covenant resided.
2. Across from the Dome of the Rock is the Al Aqsa Mosque roughly a 100 yards away. Tourists are not allowed to enter the mosque and it's a hot bed of ill feelings. When I went up to the Dome of the Rock a couple of years ago, soldiers asked me not to because of the current temperature of emotions. I went anyway, but I didn't bother to get too close to the mosque where soldiers with machine guns patrolled.
3. The Western (Wailing) Wall is directly below the area where the Dome of the Rock is located. If you climbed the roughly 40' wall, you'd be standing on the grounds that house the Dome of the Rock. It is common for hostile people to antagonize those praying at the wall from above. The last time I was there a Bar Mitzvah was taking place at the wall. I went up to the Dome of the Rock and there were a group of people yelling "Allahu Akbar" in unison trying to disrupt the celebration below and I saw one person throw some food over the wall to irritate those below. I expected soldiers to get involved, but they didn't. The whole thing made me cringe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTq8HD33/78668853-temple-mount-624.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVFJq1j0/DSCI0414.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I took this picture of the Dome of the Rock standing in front of the Al Aqsa Mosque
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsB8xhr7/DSCI0420.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I took this picture of the Al Aqsa mosque standing on the steps leading up to the Dome of the Rock
(https://i.postimg.cc/fy04grVL/DSCI0424.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This is a picture of the Bar Mitzvah taking place at the Western Wall. The troublemakers were directly above them at the top of the wall.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q78xQXBT/IMG-6866.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This is my sister and I grabbing a bite to eat
Okay, now that the slide show and history lesson is over, here is my opinion:
First off - people must understand the tension that exists in the air in Old Jerusalem. Tension so thick at times you wonder if all hell is about to break loose. Sometimes it does.
Secondly, I do not know what the purpose of Netanyahu's speech at the Western Wall was all about, but I am not surprised that it was requested that the call to prayers be held off to not disrupt a speech given by the prime minister of Israel. It would be the equivalent of Biden given an important speech at Arlington Cemetery and requesting no church bells or horns be blasted while the President was speaking.
I am sure a sincere request was made by the government to hold off on the calls to prayer during the prime minister's speech. And of course, the calls to prayer are not set in stone, i.e., an exact time of the day and is subject to the whims of those in control of the prayers. I suspect (but do not know) that it is likely that Netanyahu was denied a respectful silence during his speech and in fact, there was a plan to blast a long prayer during his speech, most likely one of those half hour prayers. I imagine the soldiers who attempted to keep the prayers off the loud speakers were rebuffed and were met with scorn and very ill feelings. It probably escalated and the electricity to the mosque was ebentually cut off. This led to hostility and once again, off to the races and let a war begin.
As far as the event spilling over into Gaza goes, it was probably incited by Iran using their puppets (Hamas) to turn the "minor" scuffle into a reason to start a new war with Israel. It also probably had a something to do with the turnover of a new President in the U.S. that has yet to be tested, to get a feel for which side of the aisle he is going to stand.
In short, this has been going on for years and is nothing new. The conflict between Jews and Arabs goes back thousands of years. It is the stated goal of Iran that they seek the total destruction of Israel and of foreign influence on Arab countries. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., are merely arms of Iranian terrorism. The "Palestinians" are merely pawns of the terrorists whom they govern over. All that is needed to start a fire is a spark and Iran is always looking for a spark and will fan the flames until it's a hugely destructive fire. This time, it was about a request that the calls to prayer hold off during the speech of the Prime Minister. That was the spark and Hamas responded with hundreds of missiles lobbed into Israel. And Israel (whose residents say, "never again" ever since the holocaust) will fight to the death to survive instead of rolling over like they did in the 1940's. It's a sad situation.
For those who have never heard a call to prayer, here's a short example. Turn you speakers all the way up if you want the full gist of what it sounds like if walking in the streets of Jerusalem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYzAcS3G0MM
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 18, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
I am sure a sincere request was made by the government to hold off on the calls to prayer during the prime minister's speech. And of course, the calls to prayer are not set in stone, i.e., an exact time of the day and is subject to the whims of those in control of the prayers.
JBG,
I had to correct this
QuoteThe five daily prayers include: Fajr (sunrise prayer), Dhuhr (noon prayer), Asr (afternoon prayer), Maghrib (sunset prayer), and Isha (night prayer). Each prayer has a specific window of time in which it must be completed. These timings are based upon the sun.
https://www.ben.edu/faculty-staff/ctle/fac_resources/muslim-prayer-times.cfm#:~:text=The%20five%20daily%20prayers%20include,are%20based%20upon%20the%20sun.
Quote from: umassgrad on May 18, 2021, 06:54:43 AM
Lenn, I have a few questions based on your last post and I admit I've not watched this closely in the news.
I wasn't aware of civilian shields with this latest flare up. Can you share a link to that news article?
I don't recall other Middle East countries commenting recently about wiping Israel off the face of the earth in regards to the recent events. Please share that link as well.
Hamas is a terrorist group but not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. Are you aware of the many Palestinian Christians living in Palestine?
What is your feeling on Jewish settlements in Palestine? Have those settlements expanded in recent years?
First. I don't have a direct link as to why many of the mid-east countries want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, but it is a well know fact and many have expressed that thought ever since Israel has gained their independence. As of now, Iran openly expresses that belief and it is generally understood that Hamas is working under Iranian support. If you want, just google wipe Israel off the face of the earth and many articles will come up to say that and why.
Also, as far as Hamas using civilians and journalists as shields to conduct operations, again, google it and several, like this one, will come up
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/middle-east/hamas-committing-war-crimes-by-hiding-behind-civilians-israel-security-experts.html
Israel has made countless concessions to try and achieve peace in the middle east. Some have proven fruit worthy, like with Egypt and now Jordan. They have conceded land to try and appease certain people and have tried to live in peace with the Palestinians. Yes, it is a huge problem as all claim to have priority over certain aspects of the area. Obviously, I am pro Israel and with that said, I do view Israel as only fighting for what they really want--peace. I won't agree with all their policies, like kicking people off the land just to expand but again, Israel did cede land back to other countries that they had won just to keep peace and Israel has bent over backward many times to try and achieve that lasting peace, only to have to keep fighting as certain factions will never accept Israel as a country in that region.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2021, 10:41:23 AM
JBG,
I had to correct this
T
https://www.ben.edu/faculty-staff/ctle/fac_resources/muslim-prayer-times.cfm#:~:text=The%20five%20daily%20prayers%20include,are%20based%20upon%20the%20sun.
You are correct. However, I doubt there are sophisticated measuring instruments to track the sun to the second, or even the minute. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me that it's much more freelance than that. This is a situation where religious zealots can force the leader of their own government to conform to their rules while telling the government to go pound salt. Having walked through the streets of Old Jerusalem (which is made up mostly of Arabs and tourists) or Nazareth or whichever city I happen to be in, this is a fact: nary a soul (Arabs or anyone else) pay attention to the calls to prayer in the streets. They go on with business as usual as though nothing is going on. The prayers being sung inside the mosques are only paid attention to by those worshipers who are already inside the mosques. Hence the reason the group inside the mosques can be heard singing along with the muezzin through the speakers blasted throughout the community. Those who actually care are already inside the mosques, not outside in the streets eating lunch or buying goods.
Secondly, yes...the call to prayer is the second Pillar of Islam. It was initially done to call worshipers to the mosques. It was not an entire prayer, but a call to go to the mosque for prayer. Also, there were no loud speakers when this rule was written in the 6th century. The call was done by a muezzin while standing in public to get the attention of worshipers who didn't have a watch to know what time it was. Now that electricity is widely available as well as amplifiers with thousands of watts of power, the call can be broadcast for many miles...hardly the original intention of the pillar of Islam when a single male cupped his hands and called men to come pray at the mosque. Many countries allow Islamic calls to prayer, but do not allow loud speakers to be used. Also, people who complain that it is too loud have ended up in prison. In 2018, a woman in Indonesia complained of the volume of her local mosque's speakers and was given an 18-month prison sentence for blasphemy, and mobs then burned 14 Buddhist temples to the ground in retaliation following the news of her complaint against the loudspeakers.
A mosque in Hamtramk, Michigan began broadcasting calls to prayer that upset the community that is largely Catholic and Polish. Their main complaint was that the community had already implemented laws limiting the noise of church bells and church chimes in the area. It didn't seem right that the mostly Catholic community was restricted, yet the mosque was allowed to send out their call to prayer that could be heard over 10 miles away. The community eventually set a sound limit on the mosque the same as the many churches in the area.
Thirdly, the volume is at the discretion of the muezzin. In a world already concerned with noise pollution, it is just one more thing that gets on residents' nerves. In Israel (especially Jerusalem) where both Jews and Arabs live side by side, the excess volume is sometimes a "goad" more than calling people to come to the mosques to pray when those who are most religious are already at the mosque or heading there. In Jerusalem it has become more like a call to arms as many of the civilians want to ban the loudspeakers altogether.
There is room for both sides to compromise. However, Arabs in Jerusalem will never compromise and the more complaints they get about the volume, the bigger amplifiers the purchase and the louder they turn up the volume. It's kind of "kicking the bees nest". A lot of people are fed up with it, especially where society is modernized.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 18, 2021, 11:41:45 AM
You are correct. However, I doubt there are sophisticated measuring instruments to track the sun to the second, or even the minute. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me that it's much more freelance than that.
Sometimes I feel like there is an effort (not by people here on this board) to portray Muslims as primitive and in a less than positive light. JBG's comments show how little so many people in our Country know about them and how assumptions tend to paint them in a less than flattering light
Here are the prayer times for Jerusalem
May 18 3:06 AM 4:40 AM 11:36 AM 3:16 PM 6:31 PM 7:59 PM
https://www.edarabia.com/prayer-times-jerusalem/
For more information, you might want to read this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world#:~:text=The%20first%20major%20Muslim%20work,Ptolemaic%20concepts%20into%20Islamic%20sciences.
I found this rather despressing
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-airstrikes-wrecked-gaza-only-coronavirus-testing-lab-reports-2021-5?utm_source=reddit.com
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2021, 11:51:04 AM
Sometimes I feel like there is an effort (not by people here on this board) to portray Muslims as primitive and in a less than positive light. JBG's comments show how little so many people in our Country know about them and how assumptions tend to paint them in a less than flattering light
Here are the prayer times for Jerusalem
May 18 3:06 AM 4:40 AM 11:36 AM 3:16 PM 6:31 PM 7:59 PM
https://www.edarabia.com/prayer-times-jerusalem/
For more information, you might want to read this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world#:~:text=The%20first%20major%20Muslim%20work,Ptolemaic%20concepts%20into%20Islamic%20sciences.
Again, I try to shed some light on this subject. The original intent of the call to prayer was to remind worshipers that it's time to come to prayer. It was made a rule when there was no way for the common man to know what time it was. The entire prayer was not "called" like it is done today nor was there 15,000 watt amplifiers to blast it many miles away. The original intent was simply a reminder to men that it was time to go to prayer.
The nuances are less important than the grievances of non-religious and modern people forced to sit in on other peoples' prayers. I don't think you would particularly appreciate it in your neighborhood if evangelicals prayed on loudspeakers that forced you to hear their prayers five times a day. In fact, I know you would get sick of it and most likely complain. It has nothing to do with the Islamic religion as much as it has to do with noise pollution in a modern society in which not everyone is of the same religion or even has any use for religion. It is quite impressive that Israel allows mosques in their cities and country to blast their prayers over loud speakers. I don't think it is too far fetched to think it would have been a decent gesture by the Al Aqsa mosque to refrain from blasting their prayers while the leader of their country gave a short speech nearby. But that is just me. Those outside of Israel who hate Bibi probably have no problem with it and probably think Israel deserved to be ruthlessly attacked.
It's not a slight on Islam or what they practice, but pointing out that their "calls to prayer" is a nuisance to those who do not share their beliefs, even though those same people have put up with it as a courtesy for years. It is certainly not worthy of going to war and killing dozens of people, but that is what is happening thanks to Hamas using it as an excuse to bombard cities in Israel. The haters of Israel (Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) do not need a reason to try and destroy Israel, they just need an excuse to start it and subsequently claim to the world that they started it. And if you haven't noticed, when Israel is attacked, they will retaliate with extreme force. For Israel, it's a matter of survival.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 18, 2021, 12:24:05 PM
Again, I try to shed some light on this subject.
JBG,
Are you asserting I was wrong when I corrected you both about the fact that there are specific times for the call to prayers and that Muslims are more than capable of identifying the point in the solar cycle for a given day?
I am not sure I need to have light "shed on me".
I mean you basically accused the Muslims of deliberately scheduling their daily prayer for right in the middle of Netanyahu's speech when the truth was he deliberately scheduled his speech for the middle of one of the calls for prayer and then as Philosopher pointed out
QuoteIt started literally with the cutting of an electrical cord so the loudspeaker for Muslim prayer prior to Ramadan could not be broadcast over Netanyahu's speech at the nearby Western Wall. Police just walked into Al Aksa Mosque and cut it.
Seems to me like Netanyahu engaged in a calculated deliberate act of provocation. Provocation for a conflict that seems to serve his desire (at least I would think it was his desire) to distract from his scandals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu#:~:text=Police%20recommended%20indictments%20against%20Netanyahu,portfolios%20other%20than%20prime%20minister.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2021, 12:48:00 PM
JBG,
Are you asserting I was wrong when I corrected you both about the fact that there are specific times for the call to prayers and that Muslims are more than capable of identifying the point in the solar cycle for a given day?
I am not sure I need to have light "shed on me".
I conceded that you are right that there are exact times. What I said that probably ruffled your feathers is that modern society which is made up of both religious and non-religious people should not be subjected to someone else's religious prayers blasted through loud speakers that drown out your television or a meeting you are sitting in. A lot has changed since the early 600's AD when there was no electricity, no amplifiers, no loud speakers, and virtually everyone in a community shared exact same religious beliefs. It's pretty lucky for Muslims in a non-Islamic countries to share their prayers with everyone simply because they say it's how they practice their religion. It's a sticky subject and like I said, I doubt you'd want to hear the prayers of evangelicals blasted into your home five times a day because 1400 years ago, an evangelical said there'd be a call to prayer five times a day.
QuoteI mean you basically accused the Muslims of deliberately scheduling their daily prayer for right in the middle of Netanyahu's speech when the truth was he deliberately scheduled his speech for the middle of one of the calls for prayer and then as Philosopher pointed out
Seems to me like Netanyahu engaged in a calculated deliberate act of provocation. Provocation for a conflict that seems to serve his desire (at least I would think it was his desire) to distract from his scandals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu#:~:text=Police%20recommended%20indictments%20against%20Netanyahu,portfolios%20other%20than%20prime%20minister.
I don't know if the speech was "deliberately scheduled" or not during the mosque's call to prayer, but I am sure that the overwhelmingly anti-Semitic press from around the world has said such as they jump to conclusions and use any excuse to incite hatred towards Jews. I have no doubt the mosque was asked to not interfere with the prime minister's speech. Whether or not you agree or I agree is irrelevant. The entire point is that it (simple as it was) was all it took for an anxious terrorist group looking for an excuse to start launching more than 3000 missiles into another country's civilian population. And now shocked that they fought back. I have a hard time believing that even you believe the attacks on Israel were justified. But who knows, there are an awful lot of people who simply hate Jews, especially among the hard left in this country and among American academia. Makes no sense to me, but such is the world we live in.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 18, 2021, 01:20:23 PM
I conceded that you are right that there are exact times. What I said that probably ruffled your feathers is that modern society which is made up of both religious and non-religious people should not be subjected to someone else's religious prayers blasted through loud speakers that drown out your television or a meeting you are sitting in. A lot has changed since the early 600's AD when there was no electricity, no amplifiers, no loud speakers, and virtually everyone in a community shared exact same religious beliefs. It's pretty lucky for Muslims in a non-Islamic countries to share their prayers with everyone simply because they say it's how they practice their religion. It's a sticky subject and like I said, I doubt you'd want to hear the prayers of evangelicals blasted into your home five times a day because 1400 years ago, an evangelical said there'd be a call to prayer five times a day.
I don't know if the speech was "deliberately scheduled" or not during the mosque's call to prayer, but I am sure that the overwhelmingly anti-Semitic press from around the world has said such as they jump to conclusions and use any excuse to incite hatred towards Jews. I have no doubt the mosque was asked to not interfere with the prime minister's speech. Whether or not you agree or I agree is irrelevant. The entire point is that it (simple as it was) was all it took for an anxious terrorist group looking for an excuse to start launching more than 3000 missiles into another country's civilian population. And now shocked that they fought back. I have a hard time believing that even you believe the attacks on Israel were justified. But who knows, there are an awful lot of people who simply hate Jews, especially among the hard left in this country and among American academia. Makes no sense to me, but such is the world we live in.
JBG,
I have seen just as much hatred for Muslims/Arabs as I have seen hatred for Jews. I find it odd that you only address one side of the hatred thing. Why do you pretend that only one side is the subject of hatred, bigotry, and prejudice?
I worked in Egypt for 5 years and in Morocco for 4. I always enjoyed the call to prayer and never found it intrusive.
It was kind of like hearing the church bells ringing in my hometown. They would ring every hour and were loud but I enjoyed those as well.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2021, 01:34:11 PM
JBG,
I have seen just as much hatred for Muslims/Arabs as I have seen hatred for Jews. I find it odd that you only address one side of the hatred thing. Why do you pretend that only one side is the subject of hatred, bigotry, and prejudice?
I've not witnessed any hatred for Muslims. I suppose it is out there, but I've never witnessed it. I have witnessed college campuses standing up for Muslims and our government (both sides of the aisle) standing up for Muslims; yet have witnessed many campuses condemning Jews and have heard our own politicians like Rep. Ilhan Omar openly trash Israel. Believe or not, anti-Semitism is very, very high - not just in this country, but all over the world. As far as I am aware, there is no religion or constitution that requires its adherents to hate and kill Muslims. However, there is both a religion (more than 2 billion strong) and constitutions of countries that require the total annihilation of Jews. It's a sad fact. And tiny Israel is surrounded by Islamic countries, many who have sworn that their solemn duty is to destroy Israel and of course, the Qur'an and "holy'" writings command adherents of the religion to kill Jews (Sahih al-Bukhari 2926; Book 56, Hadith 139
The Hour will not be established until you fight the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
I know of no religion in which it's writings are required to kill Muslims. They may be subjected to bigotry the way many minorities in this country are, but there is no religious command to kill them. Anti-Semitism has been around for a long time, long before Hitler made it popular. If you study American history and the KKK, blacks were not the only target of violence and hangings, they likewise also went after Jews. An ugly part of our past.
Take a look at what Israel is up against. The red spot in the middle of the sea of green is Israel. The green have religious zealots who believe Jews must be killed and that Israel does not have the right to exist. Kind of makes you understand the paranoia of Jews in Israel since the holocaust.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zxw4N9g/Dh2p-Cj-JXc-AIRwyf.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2021, 02:57:18 PM
seriously?
Maybe I live in a sheltered world, but everyone I've been around insists on treating Muslims fairly. I'm sure there are rednecks throughout the U.S. who hate Muslims, but I don't hang out with those types. They tend to hate other groups as well - not people I want to be around. I do witness a lot of campuses on TV and in other forms of media where it is a regular thing to boldly condemn Israel while loudly supporting Palestinians. Jew-bashing on campuses in California is almost a sport anymore.
Regardless, I don't hate anyone. Life is too short. I don't hang out with people who hate. Life is too short. I do get involved with the right for Israel to exist and that seems to make a lot of people - especially those on the political left - pretty angry. I think they should spend some time in Israel and discover for themselves what's going on rather than listen to bigoted politicians and biased media trying to sway opinions of people who see Israel as nothing more a distant land that is the cause of trouble in the middle east, yet have never been there. But for whatever reason (probably political) feel they must get involved in picking sides and trashing the side they decide to oppose, be it a knee jerk reaction or politically swayed by professional propagandists.
I don't think most people who have an opinion (even a strong opinion) on matters in Israel are even aware of the large Arab/Muslim population that live in Israel and love Israel and hate the conflict. Unless people are directly effected by the situation there, they should not take strong stands unless they actually spend time there - both in Israel and the West Bank (Gaza is a little freaky). Most people are not even aware that the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt right up until 1967 after the 6-Day War. Israel didn't want to take Gaza as part of Israel, but Egypt wouldn't take it back so Israel gave Gaza its total sovereignty. It's all very complicated and people need to understand that those who live in Gaza have no say whatsoever what the Hamas government does and like I tried to point out, Hamas takes all it's orders from Iran and their religious heads. Hamas makes no decisions on their own - they are puppets of the Iranian regime. The more you understand Iran and their tentacles in controlling terrorism around the world, the wiser you become.
JBG,
Just so you can say you have witnessed hatred for Arabs/Muslims
[html]
If you ever fall into the black hole of trying to unwind a play-by-play analysis of "who started it" when it comes to a conflict involving Israel, you will find yourself on a journey in time going past the crusades and into pre-Roman history. Unless you plan to get a Ph.D. in history, there's no way to comprehend all the back-and-forth violence on this issue that's been pretty much non-stop for a century.
Quote from: bldevil on May 18, 2021, 04:34:38 PM
If you ever fall into the black hole of trying to unwind a play-by-play analysis of "who started it" when it comes to a conflict involving Israel, you will find yourself on a journey in time going past the crusades and into pre-Roman history. Unless you plan to get a Ph.D. in history, there's no way to comprehend all the back-and-forth violence on this issue that's been pretty much non-stop for a century.
Good point. It actually started about 2150 BCE when Abraham bestowed his blessings on his son Isaac (patriarch of the Jewish Israelites) instead of Ishmael (patriarch of the Arabs). The Jews and the Arabs are cousins and they make the Hatfields and McCoys look like child's play in comparison.
Quote from: bldevil on May 18, 2021, 04:34:38 PM
If you ever fall into the black hole of trying to unwind a play-by-play analysis of "who started it" when it comes to a conflict involving Israel, you will find yourself on a journey in time going past the crusades and into pre-Roman history. Unless you plan to get a Ph.D. in history, there's no way to comprehend all the back-and-forth violence on this issue that's been pretty much non-stop for a century.
Nothing can be done to solve a problem that has gone on for centuries, don't even try to figure it out as the Palestinians are slowly wiped off the face of the earth.
This type of behavior is not something new. Thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust were turned away from many countries because it was politically unpopular and a line on admitting refugees had to be drawn somewhere. Both reasonable arguments to a very complex problem back then but it didn't help those who had to return to Nazi Germany to be murdered.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 18, 2021, 07:12:48 PM
Good point. It actually started about 2150 BCE when Abraham bestowed his blessings on his son Isaac (patriarch of the Jewish Israelites) instead of Ishmael (patriarch of the Arabs). The Jews and the Arabs are cousins and they make the Hatfields and McCoys look like child's play in comparison.
I often find the citation to the Bible for land claims to be less than ideal. Imagine you get a knock on your door. You answer and the person on the other side say, "get out of my house and off my land". You say, "How is this yours? My family has lived on this home and on this land for generations?". They say, "well you're wrong, it is written that I own this land". Your response, "written where?". They respond "right here MY bible"
Factually and legally speaking no one knows who wrote the bible, who changed the bible, and what is actually true in the bible. Factually large numbers of humans don't even believe the bible is the exact word of divine beings. So how can it be the definitive document to settle a land dispute?
Both Bibi and Hamas want to cling to power. The way to do that is to keep dividing. We saw that here not too long ago. Both are deterrents to peace. I feel bad for the citizens of both sides. They are innocent bystanders in a power grab.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 18, 2021, 03:46:10 PM
Just so you can say you have witnessed hatred for Arabs/Muslims
Rich: Yes, every country has a collection of left-wing and right-wing morons.
But the vast majority of people everywhere are good people who just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace.
IMO, especially in countries that hate US, the morons seem to have congregated in the government AND those governments are generally totalitarian (i.e., too much power ensconced in too few people).
Bob
Quote from: umassgrad on May 19, 2021, 11:55:22 AM
Nothing can be done to solve a problem that has gone on for centuries, don't even try to figure it out as the Palestinians are slowly wiped off the face of the earth.
This type of behavior is not something new. Thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust were turned away from many countries because it was politically unpopular and a line on admitting refugees had to be drawn somewhere. Both reasonable arguments to a very complex problem back then but it didn't help those who had to return to Nazi Germany to be murdered.
umass: Your post is dead-on correct, IMO. It may interest (or utterly dismay) you to hear that all sorts of people share that view. In fact, one of them who spoke about it often was the late Rush Limbaugh. Bob
Let's not make this a history lesson, but there are no other people who ever inhabited this earth that has been picked on more than the Jews. They were slaves for 400 HUNDRED years and seek no money from Egypt for that, they have been blamed for killing Christ, they have had more Pogroms against them for more years than we can count, and then the ultimate condition, basically being annihilated off the face of the earth by Hitler and the Nazis, yet they have endured. In all that time, except for a few instances, they never fought back. it was always, we've been around for so long, we will overcome all of this and still survive. Bit no more. Since Israel was formed, they all say NO MORE. They will not be the doormats for one and all, and anyone who thinks they can just walk over them finds they are in for a huge fight, yet Israel is always looked on as the aggressor and pity the poor whomever who dared to go against them.
All over the world today there is more hatred and dislike for Jews than any other sect of people. Countries are denying the Holocaust, Jews are still blamed for every wrong that they can find. Even in this country, how many attacks have we seen against Mosques or even Palestinians, yet Kill the Jews can be heard every time we get these right-wing rallies. In the south Jews are despised a whole lot more than blacks. They are #1 on the KKK list and just about every other right-wing group as the #1 threat to this country. Sorry but I don't see many Muslims or Palestinians on these lists, so stop with the pity for the poor Palestinians.
Look as ever part of life, what Israeli's have done for the good of the world, what Jewish people have done for the good of mankind, thru science, business, agriculture, and the list can go on. What have the Palestinians given to this world, what have the Muslims given to this world, what have the Iranians given to this world?
Yet the hate for Israel and the Jewish people continues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SKB2OzUipg
Lenn, thanks for the history lesson. No one would argue with what you posted about the Jews being persecuted. I agree with everything you said but that doesn't make what's happening to the Palestinians acceptable. It's wrong ( 2 wrongs don't make a...) and no history lesson is going to make it right in my mind.
In regards to your question, "what have Muslims given to this world?"
What is only now becoming clear (to many in the west) is that during the dark ages of medieval Europe, incredible scientific advances were made in the Muslim world. Geniuses in Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus and Cordoba took on the scholarly works of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece, India and China, developing what we would call "modern" science. New disciplines emerged
Quote from: umassgrad on May 20, 2021, 11:59:51 AM
Lenn, thanks for the history lesson. No one would argue with what you posted about the Jews being persecuted. I agree with everything you said but that doesn't make what's happening to the Palestinians acceptable. It's wrong ( 2 wrongs don't make a...) and no history lesson is going to make it right in my mind.
In regards to your question, "what have Muslims given to this world?"
What is only now becoming clear (to many in the west) is that during the dark ages of medieval Europe, incredible scientific advances were made in the Muslim world. Geniuses in Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus and Cordoba took on the scholarly works of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece, India and China, developing what we would call "modern" science. New disciplines emerged
QuoteTo circle back, it bothers me when I see Israel's actions being defended based on the idea that Jews are better than Muslims even if it's more implied than directly stated.
You inferred something that was never implied. The whole point is, is that Israel has the right to defend itself when another country lodges missiles into their cities with the sole intention of killing Israeli civilians. This has been happening for years, whether strapping a bomb on a mentally ill person and sending him into a pizza shop where he unknowingly gets detonated by a remote phone; or the buses of civilians blown up; or going into a restaurant and mass murdering Israelis as they enjoy a meal - the whole world cheers the Arabs on because they believe the "Jews have it coming". Sickens me.
I was afraid that this subject would end up with Jew bashing. The popularity of antisemitism never ceases to amaze me. No matter what, some people will always come out negatively towards the Jewish people. When Arafat's goons infiltrated the Olympics in Munich and killed 11 Israeli athletes, there were people who actually said they had it coming. I just don't understand people. What do the Jewish people have to do to be fairly treated?
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 20, 2021, 05:39:38 PM
I was afraid that this subject would end up with Jew bashing. The popularity of antisemitism never ceases to amaze me. No matter what, some people will always come out negatively towards the Jewish people.
I guess you didn't see that plot twist coming where it ended in Muslim bashing instead (especially as you said were completely unaware of how hated Muslims are by many)
On the plus side, as I type this President Biden is on my TV announcing a cease fire
Sadly it's followed by a story about a hate crime against a Mosque in Suffolk County. There burned a flag and sprayed pro Trump graffiti
Quote from: umassgrad on May 20, 2021, 11:59:51 AM
Lenn, thanks for the history lesson. No one would argue with what you posted about the Jews being persecuted. I agree with everything you said but that doesn't make what's happening to the Palestinians acceptable. It's wrong ( 2 wrongs don't make a...) and no history lesson is going to make it right in my mind.
In regards to your question, "what have Muslims given to this world?"
What is only now becoming clear (to many in the west) is that during the dark ages of medieval Europe, incredible scientific advances were made in the Muslim world. Geniuses in Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus and Cordoba took on the scholarly works of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, Greece, India and China, developing what we would call "modern" science. New disciplines emerged
Quote from: LennG on May 20, 2021, 06:40:36 PM
Don't pity the poor Palestinians,
I have a real problem with this instruction
According to Gaza health officials,
at least 63 children are among the 217 Palestinians who have been killed in Gaza since the latest conflict between Israel and Hamas began on May 10. On the Israeli side,
12 people have been killed by Hamas rockets, all but one of them civilians, including a 5-year-old boy.
this is a good article to learn what is going on
https://time.com/6047764/israeli-palestinian-violence/
In this conflict, Hamas fired first, and Israel retalliated. Period.
And yet Israel is taking a ton of heat from the US mainstream media and far left politicians like AOC and Ilhan Omar for retalliating and defending themselves? Seems totally unfair to me.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 21, 2021, 06:07:47 AM
In this conflict, Hamas fired first, and Israel retalliated. Period.
And yet Israel is taking a ton of heat from the US mainstream media and far left politicians like AOC and Ilhan Omar for retalliating and defending themselves? Seems totally unfair to me.
Could you have at least taken 5 minutes to read the post Rich shared? The one where he mentions learning what's going on.
For those that say that Israel only wants to live in peace, can you explain the whole Israeli settlement thing?
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/12/29/507377617/seven-things-to-know-about-israeli-settlements
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
Quote from: umassgrad on May 21, 2021, 06:42:02 AM
Could you have at least taken 5 minutes to read the post Rich shared? The one where he mentions learning what's going on.
I read the article. Which part of "Hamas fired first'" do you disagree with?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 21, 2021, 02:56:52 PM
I read the article. Which part of "Hamas fired first'" do you disagree with?
Nowhere in the article does it say Hamas fired first. It does say," families facing eviction from their homes, their plight triggering protests in Sheikh Jarrah and beyond. But what the Israeli government initially called a real estate dispute between private parties has now spiraled toward outright war. On Monday, Israeli police escalated its crackdown on protesters by entering the Al-Haram Al-Sharif, site of the revered Al-Aqsa mosque, during the last days of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. They fired teargas and stun grenades at worshippers, and were met by rocks hurled by Palestinians."
Translation: During the holy month of Ramadan the Israeli government evicted Palestinian families from their homes which caused protests. The police fired teargas and stun grenades at the protesters. If anyone doesn't understand the situation it's you.
Quote from: umassgrad on May 21, 2021, 04:21:37 PM
Nowhere in the article does it say Hamas fired first. It does say," families facing eviction from their homes, their plight triggering protests in Sheikh Jarrah and beyond. But what the Israeli government initially called a real estate dispute between private parties has now spiraled toward outright war. On Monday, Israeli police escalated its crackdown on protesters by entering the Al-Haram Al-Sharif, site of the revered Al-Aqsa mosque, during the last days of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. They fired teargas and stun grenades at worshippers, and were met by rocks hurled by Palestinians."
Translation: During the holy month of Ramadan the Israeli government evicted Palestinian families from their homes which caused protests. The police fired teargas and stun grenades at the protesters. If anyone doesn't understand the situation it's you.
Hamas fired rockets first on May 10th. They hit multiple residences and a school. This took place after the clashes at the Al Aqsa mosque. If you want to try to say Israel started the conflict because they shut down the prayers at the mosque for the Netanyahu speech at the Wailing Wall, or because of the evictions before that, then that's your prerogative, but when you're talking about the damage done on either side by rockets, to me it matters greatly who opened fire first. And that was Hamas, not Israel. Israel took military action in response. I'm not sure why this is such a struggle to accept.
Oh boy, we're back to "He started it, not me!"
Here's some food for thought. A thought-provoking essay from Bari Weiss' substack:
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-new-furies-of-the-oldest-hatred
There's plenty of bad behavior to go around. In a world of 7 billion people you'll find plenty of idiots doing stupid things, defiling mosques as well as synagogues. But the gist of the piece traces out major portions of anti-semitism, and how it has taken root in the U.S., mentioned by LennG in a prior post.
Quote from: bldevil on May 22, 2021, 07:29:15 AM
Here's some food for thought. A thought-provoking essay from Bari Weiss' substack:
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-new-furies-of-the-oldest-hatred
There's plenty of bad behavior to go around. In a world of 7 billion people you'll find plenty of idiots doing stupid things, defiling mosques as well as synagogues. But the gist of the piece traces out major portions of anti-semitism, and how it has taken root in the U.S., mentioned by LennG in a prior post.
Anti-Semitism is a terrible thing, and the number of hate crimes directed at Jewish people rose during the last 4 years. Of course, the anti-Muslim hatred is just as bad and the numbers of hate crimes (they are the second most targeted religion) are equally bad and also rose over the last 4 years.
We were not to "feel sorry for the Palestinians" even though the Israeli defense forces killed 63 children (and for the sake of fairness Palestinian terrorists killed one Israeli child). There was even a video posted here proclaiming Jewish people as being superior to Muslims. I am also troubled by the comments of that essentially equate to "might makes right" where it's proclaimed because Israel is so strong it's their right to use that power as they see fit.
Oddly enough hatred is even used as a cover of sorts. It's been implied that the only reason people don't support Israel and what they are doing is because everyone is anti-Semitic. Of course, the claim allows one to hide a lot of wrongdoing (like the settlements no one wants to talk about).
If we ever want to see the killing on both sides stop, we need to put away the rhetoric and the tactics and the stunts. We need to treat everyone as equals and we need to get into the nuts of bolts of right and wrong. Palestinian terrorists and terrorism need to be held to account. Of course, Israel needs to be held to account for settlements and military excesses as well as its citizens attacking Palestinians.
When you have this much hatred (on both sides of the conflict) between two groups who suffer hatred and hate crimes around the world, you need to move past that and start looking at all the facts and start looking at the root causes of the problem and the conflict. I think it's a disservice to the greater truth to focus only on who shot the first rocket. We need to look at the conflict in its entirety.
Israel has a right to exist and exist in peace. Palestinians have a right to exist and exist in peace and security (and that includes not having their land
stolen settled), or their people's put under harsh blockades.
We need to be working towards those goals, not spending all our time talking about hate in the region and in the US.
Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly losthttps://www.yahoo.com/news/nobody-won-11-day-israel-065800020.html
"Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly lost."
I agree and no one will ever win as long as shots are fired or missiles exploded. Israel is a sovereign nation. It has the right to defend its borders. On the other hand, the "Palestine problem" will never disappear by dropping bombs on buildings. They are not going anywhere. They will never be obliterated. So what do do? How can this end? Only by real leaders coming together and finding solutions. And solutions mean compromise. Israel right now has a Trump-like leader who can't govern. Palestine's leader is almost 90 and has little influence. Both sides need better leadership and then....maybe something can get done.
Quote from: katkavage on May 22, 2021, 01:46:49 PM
"Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly lost."
I agree and no one will ever win as long as shots are fired or missiles exploded. Israel is a sovereign nation. It has the right to defend its borders. On the other hand, the "Palestine problem" will never disappear by dropping bombs on buildings. They are not going anywhere. They will never be obliterated. So what do do? How can this end? Only by real leaders coming together and finding solutions. And solutions mean compromise. Israel right now has a Trump-like leader who can't govern. Palestine's leader is almost 90 and has little influence. Both sides need better leadership and then....maybe something can get done.
kat: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bill Clinton offered Yasser Arafat everything on his list of demands, and the offer was rejected.
Arafat preferred to preserve the "issue" of hating Israel rather than solving the problem and convincing his people to go along with the deal.
I don't know what today's Palestinian leaders believe, but I see no direct evidence that the situation has changed.
Bob
Quote from: katkavage on May 22, 2021, 01:46:49 PM
"Nobody won the 11-day Israel-Gaza battle, but 230 dead Palestinians and 12 dead Israelis clearly lost."
I agree and no one will ever win as long as shots are fired or missiles exploded. Israel is a sovereign nation. It has the right to defend its borders. On the other hand, the "Palestine problem" will never disappear by dropping bombs on buildings. They are not going anywhere. They will never be obliterated. So what do do? How can this end? Only by real leaders coming together and finding solutions. And solutions mean compromise. Israel right now has a Trump-like leader who can't govern. Palestine's leader is almost 90 and has little influence. Both sides need better leadership and then....maybe something can get done.
Kat
That is all well and good, in theory, but in reality, Israel is the only party that truly wants peace. In the thought it would never happen department, no one ever thought Egypt would accept a peace with Israel, ye they did and live side by side in peace. No one thought Jordan would ever be able to make peace with Israel, but that has also happened. Israel is willing to do just about anything to be able to live in peace in the middle east, but they will never accept a terrorist group masquerading as a nation. And let's call a stone a stone, most of the Palestinians are ruled by Hamas and Hamas is rules by Iran, who will NEVER agree to any sort of peace with Israel.
What really bothers me, like in Nazi Germany, when after the war, ask most Germans and they all reply that they were never Nazis, ask most Palestinians who they follow and it is Hamas, a group that is labeled a terrorist faction.
For 5000 and some years, Jews didn't control their destiny, now, with a state of their own, they can, and do.
And for all the Palestinian supporters, really, what's to like about them? They have been kicked out of their country? I don't think so. The United Nations gave support for the formation of Israel and gave it that little bit of desert that they now call home. They have taken that little piece of desert and made it a thriving country. They farm and grow food in the desert, they have advanced all sciences, what have the Palestinians done in all the time they were there? Israel gave them Gaza, yet the terrorists that control them want Israel to bleed and will never make peace. You want peace in the middle east, remove all terrorists from control and that would be a good start. Israel would welcome peace, but not with terrorists.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 22, 2021, 07:48:35 AM
Anti-Semitism is a terrible thing, and the number of hate crimes directed at Jewish people rose during the last 4 years. Of course, the anti-Muslim hatred is just as bad and the numbers of hate crimes (they are the second most targeted religion) are equally bad and also rose over the last 4 years.
Anti-Semitism has definitely risen and proof of that is littered all over the internet in attacks, burning of synagogues, hate speech on college campuses, etc. I haven't seen the burning of mosques, or hate speech directed at Arabs/Muslims on American colleges, etc. I was wondering if you could actually verify those claims. Most anything done to discredit, threaten, or harm Jews pretty much gets swept under the rug. How many college campuses will discuss the assassination of Sen. Bobby Kennedy? None! That's because Sirhan Sirhan was a Palestinian Arab who despised Kennedy. Ask a hundred top history students about Bobby Kennedy's assassination and probably 99% know who he was (the brother of JFK) and that he was likely going to be the next Democrat president and that he was killed by an assassin. Ask them the reason he was killed and you'll get 100 blank stares. That's because the assassin was Sirhan Sirhan, a "Palestinian" born in what is now known as "Jordan" and he killed RFK for his support of Jews. He even timed the killing to coordinate with the anniversary of the Six-Day War. This kind of knowledge is never taught in schools these days as to avoid hurting feelings I guess :-?? Also, the Democrat Party would have nothing to do with JFK and RFK based on today's party that's been taken over by hard leftists. But I digress!
(https://i.postimg.cc/52Myr8Z1/main-qimg-d9e2da49b3e567d30564b7e386a7a0d5.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Another point I wish to make is that there is no such race as "Palestinian". The people being referred to as Palestinians are simply Arabs. There are a half billion Arabs spread across the middle east (and roughly 2 billion practicing Muslims). There are roughly 14.3 million Jews in this world (6 million of those Jews live in Israel as well and nearly 2 million free Arabs who live in Israel). Regardless, for hundreds of years, Jews were referred to as "Palestinians" until 1948, then afterwards, there was no one referred to as "Palestinians", until it was revived by Yassar Arafat. There is simply no such race known as "Palestinian". The people referred to as such in today's uneducated world are Arabs. There are 6 major races in the world, but many ethnicities.
Race is determined by physical traits and genetic identity, whereas ethnicity is determined by cultural identification (i.e., language, religious practices, behaviors, expressions unique to members of a specific ethnicity, hierarchical systems, orientation to time/calendars, gender egalitarianism, etc). Until Egyptian born terrorist Yassar Arafat moved into the traditional land of Judea and set up his terrorist headquarters in Jericho, all "Palestinians" were simply referred to as "Arabs" by virtually everyone in the world. In the late 60's, Arafat started using the term "Palestinians" in order to give the Arab group a unique identity.
Quick history lesson. After the Roman Empire slaughtered most of the Jews of Israel and took over the country in the first century AD, they purposely renamed Israel, "Syria Palaestina" both to lay claim to the land as well as add the term "Palaestina" to the area's name in order to spite the "hated Jews" by referencing the extinct people known as Philistines - the historical and most feared enemies of the people of Judea (from where the name "Jews" derives). For those who don't know, Goliath was a Philistine and David was a Jew. Therefore, while the area was called Palaestina (officially in modern times was called the British Mandate of Palestine as of 1920). The British had seized the land from the always evolving empires, this time the Ottoman Empire.
Emperor Titus brought home the plunder from the destruction of Jerusalem and built the "Arch of Titus", which is the original entrance way to the Colosseum.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90rC4QKL/47.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)post a pic (https://postimages.org/)
If you look at the carvings on the arch of Roman soldiers bringing their haul back to Rome, you can see them carrying a Menorah and possibly the Ark of the Covenant that was plundered from the temple of Jerusalem.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpjkQ4Lh/arch-of-titus-menorah-1594235403.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Regardless, before the two major world wars, the entire middle east was divided by various conquerors and names and boundaries constantly changed. Here's an early map of "Palestine"
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtYgS0yc/British-Mandate.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
After the League of Nations, the land of Palestine was divided into Palestine and Transjordan, both under the control of Great Britain.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGptQFVR/1920-map-of-middle-east.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Many in the world referred to all people of the land of Palestine, "Palestinians" as well as the Jews themselves. The well known
Jerusalem Post was called the
Palestinian Post and was 100% owned and operated by Jews. The Palestinian Symphony Orchestra (now called the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra) was started in Tel Aviv years before WWII and Israel gaining independence and was made up entirely by Jews. And by the way, the modern city of Tel Aviv was a Jewish Community erected in 1909 by Jews where the only language spoken was Hebrew (or in some cases yiddish). When Israel became a free and independent nation in 1948, the use of the term "Palestinian" was no longer used to describe the Jews of Palestine. That is, until Arafat brought it back in the late 60's and started referring to the displaced Arabs, "Palestinians".
Here's the cover of the
Palestinian Post in 1948:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nznvf6gF/1948-palestine-post-state-of-israel-is-born-TXJ95-A.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/0NY39K5p/Palestine-Orchestra.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Keep in mind there are only 14 million Jews left in this world. There are a half billion Arabs in this world. There are 2 billion Muslims in this world who side with the Arabs in this conflict as the Qur'an directs it's followers to destroy Jews. And now, "modern" America has jumped on the bandwagon in kicking Jews and feeling sorry for Arabs because they can't beat Israel in a war even when they surprise attack!
And the beat just keeps going on
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/jewish-groups-sound-alarm-on-rise-in-antisemitic-hate-crimes-amid-tensions-between-israel-hamas/ar-AAKhfYf?ocid=msedgdhp
"Jewish groups sound alarm on rise in antisemitic hate crimes"
I really don't see anything about Palestinians or Muslims, in general, being besieged by hate mongrels.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 22, 2021, 06:02:27 PM
I haven't seen the burning of mosques, or hate speech directed at Arabs/Muslims on American colleges, etc.
Why do you repeatedly deny the fact that hate crimes against Muslims exist and are on the rise? At least with anti-Semistims, Jewish people are not victimized twice by suffering the hate crimes and then having people deny that they happened.
I already showed you hate crimes against Muslims (including being beaten to within an inch of their life) and now here is a documented list of hate crimes around the world. When you deny the FACT that hate crimes against Muslims exist you are victimizing Muslims a second time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamophobic_incidents
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 21, 2021, 02:56:52 PM
I read the article. Which part of "Hamas fired first'" do you disagree with?
You really need to go back further than that if you are seeking a true understanding. This article will help you do just that
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/middleeast/israel-palestinians-truce-sheikh-jarrah-cmd-intl/index.html
JBG,
Are the people in this article anti-Semetic?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/22/jewish-americans-israel-palestine-arielle-angel
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 23, 2021, 07:12:34 AM
Why do you repeatedly deny the fact that hate crimes against Muslims exist and are on the rise? At least with anti-Semistims, Jewish people are not victimized twice by suffering the hate crimes and then having people deny that they happened.
I already showed you hate crimes against Muslims (including being beaten to within an inch of their life) and now here is a documented list of hate crimes around the world. When you deny the FACT that hate crimes against Muslims exist you are victimizing Muslims a second time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamophobic_incidents
Yeah, yeah, I know that there are incidences of hate crimes against Muslims. I'm talking about systematic racist attacks and "group think". Hell, right now there are more incidences of attacks on Asians than on Muslims in this country.
Even though I live in a very rural place, I am within a 35 mile radius of 3 large universities (SU, Cornell, and Binghamton U,) as well as large colleges such as Ithaca College, SUNY Cortland, Le Moyne, etc). Never in my lifetime have I read or heard about Muslim bashing or attacks on Muslims or protests organized to condemn them at these places of "higher" learning. However, it's a regular story in the news of finding swastikas painted or drawn on campuses in my area and protests galore against Israel. Then whenever I read national news, I constantly read about protests against the Jews at universities across this great land. Never once have a read about a college protest about Muslims or heard condemnation of their terrorist activities. Hell, even after Islamic terrorists attacked us on 9/11, our President got up and explained that Islam is a "peaceful religion". :-??
Anti-Semitism has been around for ages. There has been a systematic attempt to erase their existence off the face of this earth for thousands of years. No other people on this planet have been systematically targeted for extinction with daily attacks against them for no other reason than their heritage.
For some reason, almost everyone on the left these days as well as leaders in the Democrat party have jumped on the Jew bashing wagon and sympathize with terrorist factions being run out of Iran like Hamas and Hezbollah. Geesh, Obama shipped billions of unmarked money in the middle of the night to the mullahs in Iran, knowing full well it would be used to fund more terrorism. It totally baffles me. It baffles me even more the sheer ignorance of people who have zero understanding of the Jewish plight, zero understanding of the goals of the Islamic religion, and have never been to Israel first hand and met the Arabs who live there who love Israel. Yet the left pounds the pulpit preaching hate against the Jews and extreme tolerance of Islamic terrorists. Crazy stuff!
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 23, 2021, 08:10:09 AM
Yeah, yeah, I know that there are incidences of hate crimes against Muslims. I'm talking about systematic racist attacks and "group think". Hell, right now there are more incidences of attacks on Asians than on Muslims in this country.
Even though I live in a very rural place, I am within a 35 mile radius of 3 large universities (SU, Cornell, and Binghamton U,) as well as large colleges such as Ithaca College, SUNY Cortland, Le Moyne, etc). Never in my lifetime have I read or heard about Muslim bashing or attacks on Muslims or protests organized to condemn them at these places of "higher" learning. However, it's a regular story in the news of finding swastikas painted or drawn on campuses in my area and protests galore against Israel. Then whenever I read national news, I constantly read about protests against the Jews at universities across this great land. Never once have a read about a college protest about Muslims or heard condemnation of their terrorist activities. Hell, even after Islamic terrorists attacked us on 9/11, our President got up and explained that Islam is a "peaceful religion". :-??
Anti-Semitism has been around for ages. There has been a systematic attempt to erase their existence off the face of this earth for thousands of years. No other people on this planet have been systematically targeted for extinction with daily attacks against them for no other reason than their heritage.
For some reason, almost everyone on the left these days as well as leaders in the Democrat party have jumped on the Jew bashing wagon and sympathize with terrorist factions being run out of Iran like Hamas and Hezbollah. Geesh, Obama shipped billions of unmarked money in the middle of the night to the mullahs in Iran, knowing full well it would be used to fund more terrorism. It totally baffles me. It baffles me even more the sheer ignorance of people who have zero understanding of the Jewish plight, zero understanding of the goals of the Islamic religion, and have never been to Israel first hand and met the Arabs who live there who love Israel. Yet the left pounds the pulpit preaching hate against the Jews and extreme tolerance of Islamic terrorists. Crazy stuff!
JBG,
How can you speak about "ignorance in others" when you admitted on this very thread your ignorance of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world. Where we differ is I acknowledge and condemn both anti-Semitism AND Islamaphobia while you only pretend that anti-Semitism is an issue (and you over apply it to the point where it appears you apply that label to anyone who is not 100% in support of everything Israel does).
Equality and fairness must be applied to EVERYONE, or those concepts become meaningless.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 23, 2021, 08:17:52 AM
JBG,
How can you speak about "ignorance in others" when you admitted on this very thread your ignorance of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world. Where we differ is I acknowledge and condemn both anti-Semitism AND Islamaphobia while you only pretend that anti-Semitism is an issue (and you over apply it to the point where it appears you apply that label to anyone who is not 100% in support of everything Israel does).
Equality and fairness must be applied to EVERYONE, or those concepts become meaningless.
Sorry, but 99% of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world are from Muslims themselves. Perhaps you don't know the difference between Sunni and Shia and the hatred each sect has for the other based on who succeeded Muhammad in 632 AD. Tens of thousands (probably millions) over the past few hundred years have been killed from competing beliefs within the Arab world.
If I was in a college classroom having this discussion the first thing that would come up from the professor is "the Crusades", which they teach is racism against Arabs and Muslims. I get a kick out of it when they say, "Well, the Crusades were based on Arab/Islamic hatred" and they are condemned by our "great thinkers" in colleges. Never mind that Islamic armies captured all of the middle east, the northern half of Africa, all of Portugal and Spain, a large portion of eastern Europe, and were closing in on France, Italy, and the area now called Germany. The Islamic wars amounted to going into territories, slaughtering all adult males, most adult women, while taking the children and desirable women for slaves after plundering the land. These hostile takeovers took place for over a span of over three hundred years with little to no resistance (as citizens of countries had no armies and were not prepared for war) before someone finally stood up to them and said, "enough's, enough" and fought back after it was obvious that France was about to fall. According to enlightened scholars and professors across this great land, it was racism and bigotry against the poor Arabs to fight back and amounted to nothing more than hostile Christians having reason to slaughter innocent Muslim warriors.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8LSFhVZ/5ce52761422fe61d8a41425a546b6317.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
For a mini-history lesson: There were 8 Crusades over a span of 190 years.
First Crusade: 2 years, 6 months (1096-1099)
Second Crusade: 1 year, 3 months (1147-1148)
Third Crusade: 2 years, 3 months (1189-1192)
Fourth Crusade: 2 years, 7 months (1201-1203)
Fifth Crusade: 3 years, 4 months (1217-1221)
Sixth Crusade: less than a year (1228-1229)
Seventh Crusade: 5 years, 3 months (1248-1254)
Eighth Crusade: 5 months (1270)
Total amount of years pushing back against Islamic aggression: 15 years, 4 months spread over a time frame of 174 years.
Total amount of years Islamic armies fought to take over countries: 1300+ years and has been going on since the mid-600s
Regardless, it is unheard of for an American campus to not condemn the Crusades while saying virtually nothing about Arab/Muslim expansion. :-??
Islamic conquests and areas of control today:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5L4xQPZ/e8pa766132v21.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It's hard for me to feel sorry for the Arab/Muslim world as though they are the victims of vicious Jews. I don't hate Arabs, I don't hate Muslims. I even have a couple of friends who are Muslims and have spent years working with some American Arabs in working out engineering problems. I had no problem with them and they had no problem with me...well, there was one guy in Rochester, NY who was originally from Iran who had a great time joking around with me until I mentioned that I had just returned from Israel. From that moment on, he grew silent and was stand-offish.
Anyway, it is your right to see Arabs as victims and Jews as terrible people. We will probably never find common ground. I support Israel and Jews 100% and always will. Doesn't mean I hate Arabs, Muslims, or people who support Arabs and/or Muslims, it just means I'll stand with Israel and the Jews when conflicts arise. And they will :(
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 23, 2021, 09:59:46 AM
Sorry, but 99% of the violence and hatred Muslims face around the world are from Muslims themselves.
Can you provide an actual citation that supports this claim? Some sort of stat or study?
I Googled the claim and couldn't find a single source to support this claim (even remotely).
JBG,
As I have said before, consistency of opinions is even more important than the opinion itself. Yet with you, there is extreme inconsistency. You accuse so many Americans (with a very broad brush) of being "anti-Semitic" if they merely criticize Israel. Then on the other hand you repeatedly deny hatred for Muslims and then go on long anti-Muslim tirades. You hear about 63 Muslim children killed in this last conflict and you tell us how it's "hard for you to feel sorry for them"
There is a consistency lacking in your opinions. For you, it seems that Israel is incapable of wrongdoing and you explain away any and all as just being the byproduct of world-wide all-encompassing anti-Semitism, while at the same time repeatedly attacking and putting down Muslims and blaming them for everything including the hate crimes against them (while essentially denying that hate crimes towards Muslims even exist). Hell, you even attacked them for their religious practices like their call to prayer. You then proclaim trouble having any sympathy for them even in light of the deaths of dozens of innocent children.
While doing this you demonized Democrats, liberals, and college campuses. You rail against the "massive ignorance" of others.
Sorry, but if we hope to have justice and peace in the world, we can't meet hatred and injustice with more hatred and injustice.
As I said, freedom and equality are meaningless if they don't apply to everyone, Israeli, Jewish, Arab, or Muslim alike
It's sort if ironic considering your double standards, that you actually made this accusation:
QuoteAnyway, it is your right to see Arabs as victims and Jews as terrible people.
Here is the REALITY, there are villains and victims on both sides of this conflict. Recognizing that FACT does not make one anti-Semitic or bigotted or prejudice, quite the opposite in fact. It actually makes on a good fair-minded person who is setting aside bigotry and prejudice to be FAIR to EVERYONE.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 23, 2021, 10:06:43 AM
Can you provide an actual citation that supports this claim? Some sort of stat or study?
I Googled the claim and couldn't find a single source to support this claim (even remotely).
JBG,
As I have said before, consistency of opinions is even more important than the opinion itself. Yet with you, there is extreme inconsistency. You accuse so many Americans (with a very broad brush) of being "anti-Semitic" if they merely criticize Israel.
I have no problem with someone criticizing Israel. The people of Israel are not perfect and are subject to criticism just like anyone in this country. No person and no government is perfect. There's a lot of difference between legitimate criticism with well thought out debate and of chasing down Jews with cars, beating the xxxx out of them while they are having a family dinner in a restaurant, spitting on them as they walk along the sidewalk, painting swastikas on walls at Universities, chanting horrible slogans in front of synagogues, etc. That is not "criticism", that is unadulterated hatred and blatant bigotry. That is what I speak out against.
I do not see Jews painting the Star of David on walls, or "death to Muslims" written on walls, or Jews driving crazy through streets waving huge Israeli flags while trying to run down Muslims, or Jews attacking Muslim families having dinner in a restaurant, etc.
QuoteThen on the other hand you repeatedly deny hatred for Muslims and then go on long anti-Muslim tirades. You hear about 63 Muslim children killed in this last conflict and you tell us how it's "hard for you to feel sorry for them"
I feel sorry for the children. I do not feel sorry for the terrorists who use them for shields. It's utterly horrible for children to die from war perpetrated by their fathers. It especially upsets me when soldiers purposely put children in the line of attacks while they attack others hoping to kill as many civilians as possible (including the children of those they hate). Building terrorist cells under schools, trotting children out in front of soldiers on the attack, etc., does not make me feel sorry for those people. The kids are pawns and those who use them as pawns hope for a high death total to gain world wide sympathy...which they get. As stated this week by Mosab Hassan Yousef (the son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef - founder and leader of Hamas), "
top Hamas leaders like my father rode out the recent violence in secure underground bunkers, while using the deaths of their own people to score foreign propaganda points. Hundreds of children have paid the price. These type of people cannot get away with what they did. They should not feel safe for a day," he said.
"Hamas hates Israel more than they love their own children." That is sad.
I haven't denied that there is "hatred for Muslims", I have no doubt it exists. Heck, there are people who hate Japanese, people who hate Russians people who hate people who have a different political position. What I have said, is that there is not "systematic attacks" on Muslims encouraged by American academia and American main stream media - the same ones who foment hatred for Jews while painting the poor Arabs as a minority class who are victims of the vicious and horrible "non-minority class" Jews. Big difference!
QuoteThere is a consistency lacking in your opinions. For you, it seems that Israel is incapable of wrongdoing and you explain away any and all as just being the byproduct of world-wide all-encompassing anti-Semitism, while at the same time repeatedly attacking and putting down Muslims and blaming them for everything including the hate crimes against them (while essentially denying that hate crimes towards Muslims even exist). Hell, you even attacked them for their religious practices like their call to prayer. You then proclaim trouble having any sympathy for them even in light of the deaths of dozens of innocent children.
Yeah, I've criticized their religious practices like their "call to prayer". Arabs in Israel freely practice this part of their religion. My point is that it has evolved from cupping hands to alert men (no women allowed) that it's time to pray because there was no such thing as a watch on the men's arms or a clock in their house. Now it is used as an excuse to broadcast not just a call to prayer, but their prayers as well and it's done over 15,000 watt amps so it can be heard for 10 miles even though every man knows exactly what time it is since watches and clocks are standard everywhere in this world.
I really suspect you'd have a hard time if Christians had a "call to prayer" along with their prayers lasting up to a half hour, five times a day and so loud that it was hard to carry on a conversation or hear your television set. Something tells me you'd be highly critical of this type of religion because it is only fair for Muslims to practice their religion in this way, no other religions deserve such respect. Heck, I live near a small village that used to play Christmas Carols out of speakers in their steeple in December and on Sunday Mornings, play a 60 second chime song to remind people it's time for church, but now it has been banned by law. From what I see, there is a systematic approach to educating the people of this country that there will be absolute tolerance of Islam and criticism of Islam is an absolute no-no. However, criticism of the religious practices of Judaism or Judeo-Christianity is absolutely fair game - take your best shot. I suppose it is because Americans see Muslims as a minority class of people (forget that it has 2 billion adherents) and must be protected from the huge group of Jews (14 million world wide and half don't even practice traditional Judaism). I scratch my head wondering why this country is so adamant about criticizing one group of religious people while giving a complete pass to other groups of people who practice their religion, even if it incredibly intrusive on those who don't share their beliefs.
QuoteWhile doing this you demonized Democrats, liberals, and college campuses. You rail against the "massive ignorance" of others.
Rail?? :-??
I do see that the Democrats, liberals, and academia have chosen to side with Arabs and Muslims, while clearly being careful not to show any support for Jews and Christians. Hell, there's people on this board who believe Christians shouldn't get involved with politics, yet have no problem with Muslims telling their adherents who to vote for and in turn, vote in lock step with who they are told to vote for in their mosques. It's called hypocrisy.
QuoteSorry, but if we hope to have justice and peace in the world, we can't meet hatred and injustice with more hatred and injustice.
So what are you saying? That in order to achieve justice and peace, we should tell Israel to stand down and let the 4000 missiles land where they may and do not fight back? That's what they've done for a thousand years and it never brought peace and justice, just massive death to their people. It's why they say, "never again" and will fight to the death for survival
QuoteAs I said, freedom and equality are meaningless if they don't apply to everyone, Israeli, Jewish, Arab, or Muslim alike
It's sort if ironic considering your double standards, that you actually made this accusation:
I'd love nothing more than to see peace and harmony in this world. However, I have read and studied the Qur'an as well as their Hadiths. It is a religion that teaches that Jews must be eliminated from earth. They teach that it is their duty to convert the entire world to Islam and that any land that has ever been conquered in the past belongs to them forever, even if it was taken back (Spain and Portugal for example), and that there is honor in (and rewards for) killing innocent civilians that do not follow Islam. It's very hard to see the grand plan of Islam seeking peace and harmony amongst all people.
On the other hand, there is no such teachings in the Torah or the Bible.
QuoteHere is the REALITY, there are villains and victims on both sides of this conflict. Recognizing that FACT does not make one anti-Semitic or bigotted or prejudice, quite the opposite in fact. It actually makes on a good fair-minded person who is setting aside bigotry and prejudice to be FAIR to EVERYONE.
You are simply rationalizing your position while cherry picking "facts" to fit your argument. You find "a fact here and there" to justify your position while ignoring thousands of facts that totally obliterate your position.
JBG,
As I have gotten older one thing I learned that being right is not exactly the be all and end all. While I can see you are misinformed on this topic, I am not going to pursue the issue. Friendship is more important. We are not going to solve the problems in the middle east on our little porch but digging in an arguing my point can have negative real consequences. So I am just going to agree to disagree.
We can demonize the entire Palestinian population and call them Hamas or led by the Iranians which isn't true. If you want to wipe that population off the face of the earth because of your dislike of Muslims that is your choice but please don't forget the many Christians living in Palestine. Here's a good article from Christianity today about this issue. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/august/palestinian-christians-survey-israel-emigration-one-state.html
The concerns of the Palestinian Christians surveyed bear this out.
About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel
Quote from: umassgrad on May 25, 2021, 06:49:37 AM
We can demonize the entire Palestinian population and call them Hamas or led by the Iranians which isn't true. If you want to wipe that population off the face of the earth because of your dislike of Muslims that is your choice but please don't forget the many Christians living in Palestine. Here's a good article from Christianity today about this issue. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/august/palestinian-christians-survey-israel-emigration-one-state.html
The concerns of the Palestinian Christians surveyed bear this out.
About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel
Quote from: umassgrad on May 25, 2021, 06:49:37 AM
We can demonize the entire Palestinian population and call them Hamas or led by the Iranians which isn't true. If you want to wipe that population off the face of the earth because of your dislike of Muslims that is your choice but please don't forget the many Christians living in Palestine. Here's a good article from Christianity today about this issue. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/august/palestinian-christians-survey-israel-emigration-one-state.html
The concerns of the Palestinian Christians surveyed bear this out.
About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel
Quote from: katkavage on May 25, 2021, 08:25:19 AM
Good post, UMass. That's what I'm trying to convey here. There is not a chance that the Palestinians will ever be "wiped out" The only hope for peace in the region is for both parties to find a way to live together. Right now the leadership on both sides is abysmal. Israel and Palestine need new leaders who understand what it takes to live in peace. That bombs, missiles, terrorist attacks will just continue the cycle as it has forever now.
kat: I agree. Sadly, I don't see what you and I are hoping for on the immediate horizon. Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allow the situation to be resolved). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 25, 2021, 10:02:55 AM
umass: As I often say in other contexts, no large group of people EVER deserves the reputation attributed to them as a whole. Most people just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace.
Almost always, the blame falls on people in power who "use" the masses in an unending quest to gain (or keep) power. Such people will lie, cheat and steal... whatever is necessary.
I believe the people of the Palenstine area have fallen victim to this sort of thing. As I've said before, their leaders turned down Bill Clinton's excellent peace offer rather than risk losing power, many years ago.
Bob
Since it was so long ago, I had to look up how the peace deal was "excellent" for the Palestinians. It seems the Palestinians didn't share your view on the plan being "excellent" for them:
On 1 January, the Palestinian Negotiating Team (NAD) published an open letter, explaining why the proposals would "fail to satisfy the conditions required for a permanent peace". They claimed that the parameters divided the Palestinian state, including East Jerusalem, into separate cantons and unconnected islands, and protested the surrender the right of return of Palestinian refugees and lack of clarity and details. Clinton's proposal was not accompanied by a map; only the Israelis presented a map, which would allegedly render the Palestinian state unviable and lacking direct access to international borders. The Palestinians opposed the Israeli annexation of settlement blocs in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, which they claimed subordinated the contiguity of the Palestinian state. They also protested that Israel would gain control over their natural resources, and was planning on ceding them less valuable land on the outskirts of West Bank and Gaza in exchange.[7][24] While Arafat flew to Washington to meet with President Clinton, the newspaper Al-Ayyam published in Arabic a letter to Clinton with the Palestinian reservations.[25]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 25, 2021, 10:11:52 AM
Since it was so long ago, I had to look up how the peace deal was "excellent" for the Palestinians. It seems the Palestinians didn't share your view on the plan being "excellent" for them:
On 1 January, the Palestinian Negotiating Team (NAD) published an open letter, explaining why the proposals would "fail to satisfy the conditions required for a permanent peace". They claimed that the parameters divided the Palestinian state, including East Jerusalem, into separate cantons and unconnected islands, and protested the surrender the right of return of Palestinian refugees and lack of clarity and details. Clinton's proposal was not accompanied by a map; only the Israelis presented a map, which would allegedly render the Palestinian state nonviable and lacking direct access to international borders. The Palestinians opposed the Israeli annexation of settlement blocs in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, which they claimed subordinated the contiguity of the Palestinian state. They also protested that Israel would gain control over their natural resources, and was planning on ceding them less valuable land on the outskirts of West Bank and Gaza in exchange.[7][24] While Arafat flew to Washington to meet with President Clinton, the newspaper Al-Ayyam published in Arabic a letter to Clinton with the Palestinian reservations.[25]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters
Rich: Right. But Clinton asked for and got a list of demands from Arafart; Clinton's offer (to Israel's chagrin) conceded every point (according to Clinton) and the offer was rejected. They moved the goal posts, IMO. Bob
There's moving the goal posts and then there's killing the guy in charge that was making progress at times. What might have been if Rabin hadn't been murdered by Israeli hard liners? At the time of his death, Rabin showed every intention of trying to forge a broader peace that would have included ceding most of the occupied territories to the Palestinians, and probably would have resulted in the establishment of an independent state. Bob, you said it best, " Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allowing the situation to be resolved). Bob" Just sub out Iran and insert another group from the other side and we will have completed our list of too many people.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/26/shot-in-the-heart
Quote from: umassgrad on May 25, 2021, 10:45:58 AM
There's moving the goal posts and then there's killing the guy in charge that was making progress at times. What might have been if Rabin hadn't been murdered by Israeli hard liners? At the time of his death, Rabin showed every intention of trying to forge a broader peace that would have included ceding most of the occupied territories to the Palestinians, and probably would have resulted in the establishment of an independent state. Bob, you said it best, " Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allowing the situation to be resolved). Bob" Just sub out Iran and insert another group from the other side and we will have completed our list of too many people.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/26/shot-in-the-heart
umass: Nice post. Good points. To be sure, the phrase I used (many people) was not intended to exclude any of the "usual suspects" in these Palestinian-Israeli matter. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 25, 2021, 10:04:30 AM
kat: I agree. Sadly, I don't see what you and I are hoping for on the immediate horizon. Too many people (Iran, for one) have much to gain IMO by not allow the situation to be resolved). Bob
I agree that it won't happen tomorrow or probably for years. But someone has to step up on both sides. The Israeli PM can't even form a government. His way has been bad from the get go. While Hamas can only promote martyrdom. And Abbas is ancient and ineffective, controlled by Hamas. New leaders on both sides please with new ideas.
Quote from: katkavage on May 25, 2021, 12:07:50 PM
I agree that it won't happen tomorrow or probably for years. But someone has to step up on both sides. The Israeli PM can't even form a government. His way has been bad from the get go. While Hamas can only promote martyrdom. And Abbas is ancient and ineffective, controlled by Hamas. New leaders on both sides please with new ideas.
kat: I don't know your age but I'm assuming you've been around about as long as I have... to live this long waiting for good leaders to step up (without results) is disconcerting. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 25, 2021, 12:30:48 PM
kat: I don't know your age but I'm assuming you've been around about as long as I have... to live this long waiting for good leaders to step up (without results) is disconcerting. Bob
I'm old, Bob. So the wait continues. But there is no other alternative, sadly.
Quote from: umassgrad on May 25, 2021, 06:49:37 AM
We can demonize the entire Palestinian population and call them Hamas or led by the Iranians which isn't true. If you want to wipe that population off the face of the earth because of your dislike of Muslims that is your choice but please don't forget the many Christians living in Palestine. Here's a good article from Christianity today about this issue. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/august/palestinian-christians-survey-israel-emigration-one-state.html
The concerns of the Palestinian Christians surveyed bear this out.
About 8 in 10 worry about attacks from Jewish settlers and being driven from their homes (83%). About 7 in 10 worry about Israeli annexation (67%). And about 6 in 10 believe Israel
QuoteIn summary. It's fine to feel sorry for the civilians in Gaza. I feel sorry for them as does my family members in Israel, in fact, I have a niece in Israel who is an activist who is constantly working for support of the abused people in Gaza. The regular people of Gaza have zero say in their government (which has been taken hostage for the last 16 years by Hamas) and have zero say in whether or not to surprise attack Israel. The root of the problem lies in Hamas who is run by wealthy leaders who live in luxury in Dubai (and won't live in Gaza of course) and take their marching orders from Iran, and then embed the terrorist group in with the most vulnerable people in hopes of getting the civilians of Gaza killed in order to score sympathy points from around the world. There is a huge propaganda campaign run from Iran that wants sympathy for "palestinians" and want normal people to find themselves hating Jews. That way it won't sting so much when Iran leashes multiple nuclear bombs on Israel to finally wipe the people off the face of the earth as demanded by their religious beliefs.
Couldn't agree more.
You watch the news from any of the networks, all they show are these Palestinians crying over the war and death. Fine, nothing wrong with that, but then they completely ignore the Israeli side. They constantly make Israel look like the aggressor and the big, bad, bully wreaking terror on all these poor innocent people.
They don't mention how Hamas has used all these poor innocent people as shields for their dirty work. How Hamas couldn't care less how many Palestinians get killed as long as they get 'good press' and make Israel look bad. As you say, for world support.
And this just Hamas, let's not forget about Hezbollah who is much more powerful than Hamas.
Let's look at Israel, who live their lives EVERY DAY, surrounded by people and terror groups who hate their guys would love to just wipe them off the face of the earth. Imagine living there, always on alert, never really knowing what will happen next, missiles flying in, human bombs blowing people up. Every day is an adventure. Does anyone really believe Israel doesn't want peace? Israel would leap for joy at the chance to make a lasting peace with anyone who wanted it. Problem is, these terrorist groups do NOT want it. AND please don't blame the leaders. That is just a huge cop-out for Americans. While many in Israel don't like what Netanyahu does, when push comes to shove, they back him all the way in his fight against terrorists. It's his inner workings that get him in trouble, not his foreign policy and protection of Israel and Israelis.
And those that really think that every Israeli's goal is to rid Israel of any and all Arabs are so sorely mistaken. Those days left when Meyer Kahan was murdered. That was HIS agenda, get all the Arabs out of Israel. That has been as far from the truth since 1990 and his death. Most Israelis live happily with Arabs in Israel and are happy to continue. Too many people are believing the slanted articles and the biased far-left liberals to really know what is going on. As JBG said, you have to talk with the source, the people of Israel. Since all these wars have started and the ongoing battles, you have NEVER seen ONE Israeli ever said that they want all the Arabs out of Israel. NEVER a one.
Please stop feeling sorry for all these 'poor' Palestinians. They are told it is Israel as their enemy when their real enemy are the terrorist groups who control them.
How do you know so much about the posters on this board?
"So it always surprises me to hear "experts" get on a board and expound what really goes on over there when they have never set foot in the land and rely solely on articles and the internet to hone a staunch position that they really are clueless about and are clueless to the propaganda being spread to turn opinion against Jews and don't realize the subject is extremely political and politicians seek all kinds of ways to keep themselves in power and the wealth that comes along with being a politician.
I lived and worked in Egypt for 5 years through both Arab springs. I lived in Morocco for 4 years. My work sent me all over the middle east throughout the UAE and I've travelled extensively in the region on vacation. I lived amongst the local people in the 26 years I spent working overseas and I feel like I got to know them pretty well. There's too much to discuss in one post as your last post is lengthy but I leave you with one of your quotes that really stuck out to me:
"There is a common thread that crosses through all of the poorest people in the Arab world, and it's called "terrorism" that is orchestrated and controlled by Iran's Mullahs as they follow their fundamentalist beliefs that Islam must be spread via the sword to please Allah."
No disrespect Jolly Blue but that comment about Islam is complete xxxxxxxx. Lenn, we know how you feel about the Palestinians. You've repeated yourself and your hate comes through loud and clear. Just imagine if Lenn's comments were flipped and you replaced Palestinians with Jews. That would be something to see.
Quote from: LennG on May 25, 2021, 02:26:14 PM
Couldn't agree more.
You watch the news from any of the networks, all they show are these Palestinians crying over the war and death. Fine, nothing wrong with that, but then they completely ignore the Israeli side. They constantly make Israel look like the aggressor and the big, bad, bully wreaking terror on all these poor innocent people.
They don't mention how Hamas has used all these poor innocent people as shields for their dirty work. How Hamas couldn't care less how many Palestinians get killed as long as they get 'good press' and make Israel look bad. As you say, for world support.
And this just Hamas, let's not forget about Hezbollah who is much more powerful than Hamas.
Let's look at Israel, who live their lives EVERY DAY, surrounded by people and terror groups who hate their guys would love to just wipe them off the face of the earth. Imagine living there, always on alert, never really knowing what will happen next, missiles flying in, human bombs blowing people up. Every day is an adventure. Does anyone really believe Israel doesn't want peace? Israel would leap for joy at the chance to make a lasting peace with anyone who wanted it. Problem is, these terrorist groups do NOT want it. AND please don't blame the leaders. That is just a huge cop-out for Americans. While many in Israel don't like what Netanyahu does, when push comes to shove, they back him all the way in his fight against terrorists. It's his inner workings that get him in trouble, not his foreign policy and protection of Israel and Israelis.
And those that really think that every Israeli's goal is to rid Israel of any and all Arabs are so sorely mistaken. Those days left when Meyer Kahan was murdered. That was HIS agenda, get all the Arabs out of Israel. That has been as far from the truth since 1990 and his death. Most Israelis live happily with Arabs in Israel and are happy to continue. Too many people are believing the slanted articles and the biased far-left liberals to really know what is going on. As JBG said, you have to talk with the source, the people of Israel. Since all these wars have started and the ongoing battles, you have NEVER seen ONE Israeli ever said that they want all the Arabs out of Israel. NEVER a one.
Please stop feeling sorry for all these 'poor' Palestinians. They are told it is Israel as their enemy when their real enemy are the terrorist groups who control them.
Here is a poll from 2016
QuoteNearly half of Jewish Israelis agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, and a solid majority (79 percent) maintain that Jews in Israel should be given preferential treatment, according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday.
The poll, with 5,601 in-person interviews of Israeli adults, conducted between October 2014 and May 2015, found that Israeli Jews increasingly believe the West Bank settlements help, rather than hurt, Israel
Just some silly numbers:
In the U.S. during a six year period between 2012-1218
763 incidences motivated by anti-Muslim bigotry (127 per year)
2037 incidences motivated by anti-Semitic bigotry (340 per year)
In the years 2019 - present there has been a drastic reduction of incidences of anti-Muslim bigotry, while anti-Semitic incidences have sky-rocketed.
Both very, very wrong!
However, the left has clearly decided that "Jews are the problem" and blame them for the people of Israel getting attacked. Every intelligence agency has made it clear that all monies sent to "Palestinians" does not reach the "Palestinians", but goes straight into the coffers of Hamas leaders to use for weaponry as well as to cover the cost of the opulent lifestyles of the terrorist leaders making decisions from afar.
Like I have pointed out, I feel sorry for the "Palestinians". I don't feel sorry for terrorist groups and their leaders...in fact, I despise them. Yet somehow, the left fails to even acknowledge that Hamas (a designated terrorist organization by every civilized country) is responsible for both the attacks on Israel as well as the awful plight of the Palestinians.
It's very confusing to me and I only wish someone on the left could tell me "why"! Why blame the Jews for being attacked by well funded terrorists? Why can't the left see that the poor plight of the Palestinians is due to Iran/Hamas and not the people of Israel who just want to live a normal life without their people getting bombed and killed? And why are leftists who don't support Israel go on attacks and beat Jews in America and try to run them down with cars while carrying huge Palestinian flags???
Not a huge fan of Bill Maher, but he's someone from the left that actually seems to see the situation clearly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvbswqpt/Mahr-Israel.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 28, 2021, 09:03:09 AM
However, the left has clearly decided that "Jews are the problem" and blame them for the people of Israel getting attacked.
With REPUBLICAN MTG being elected to Congress despite claiming the existence of Jewish space lasers setting fires in California and the party allowing her to compare having to wear a mask to save lives with the Holocaust, these sorts of claims slandering the left will always come across as at best disingenuous.
JBG, I am not sure which group you like to demonize and attack more, Americans you consider liberal or Mulsims
So... without reading six pages, did you guys solve all the problems in the Gaza Strip yet? I would hope so by now. You all need to get started on Afghanistan and the Ukraine ASAP.