QuoteUnvaccinated people do more than merely risk their own health. They're also a risk to everyone if they become infected with coronavirus, infectious disease specialists say.
That's because the only source of new coronavirus variants is the body of an infected person.
"Unvaccinated people are potential variant factories," Dr. William Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, told CNN Friday.
"The more unvaccinated people there are, the more opportunities for the virus to multiply," Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, said.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/03/health/unvaccinated-variant-factories/index.html
While I am not going to judge people for deciding to do (or in this case not do) something that is perfectly legal and clearly their right, I am all for imposing heavier restrictions and more red tape etc for those who are not vaxed. This is the right thing to do anyway from a safety perspective, but hopfully it also has the effect of persuading some folks who are on the fence to go ahead and get it done.
"More than 150 Houston hospital workers fired or quit after refusing COVID-19 vaccine"
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-06-22/houston-covid-vaccine-fired
And a judge upheld their firings.
https://boingboing.net/2021/06/15/judge-upholds-firing-health-care-workers-who-dont-get-vaccinated-for-covid-19.html
As it should be. These people tend to the sick and that could be potentially deadly if they unknowingly have any virus.
They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 03, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.
I think when you are talking about the health and safety of others, and not just the individual in question, then it becomes difficult (at best) to put all of these issues under the umbrella of personal liberty. Should smoking cigarettes in crowded public locations be more permitted? Was life better when people had the liberty to smoke in places like airplanes and in doctors' waiting rooms?
I certainly don't think anyone should be forced to have the vaccine. However I do think it is also wrong to knowingly allow the rest of the society to be put at any more additional risk than they need to be based solely on the decisions of others to not vaccinate, despite overwhelmingly strong and uniform advice from doctors and other infectious disease experts.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 03, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.
Ed: It's a tough issue, but I side with you. DB and Rich present their side well, but there are two ways of looking at it. IMO you hit the key point... there is nothing illegal about refusing to be vaccinated.
All questions of societal interaction involve balancing the rights of groups of people who have varying viewpoints, all of whom are behaving legally and exercising various constitutional rights.
Those who want to be vaccinated are free to do so, and certain restrictions on those who don't want to be vaccinated are acceptable, so long as they are reasonable.
Most people don't legally own a weapon and get training to learn how and when to use it correctly. Even if you and I think everyone who lives in a dangerous area would be smart to do so, we can't force it on them.
I think that's a pretty fair analogy, but the same line of reasoning applies to most issues where disparate constitutional rights clash. We have to strike a balance in such cases... and it is never easy.
Bob
I tend to love a good analogy, but frankly the Covid situation is so unique that I don't think it's possible to have a good one for this situation.
Essentially Covid has created an interesting situation. Every person on earth has the ability (assuming they have access to the vaccine) to make a personal choice that has the potential to kill millions of people on the planet (if they opt not to get vaccinated). Never in the history of mankind has such a decision been placed in the hands of every person on the planet.
I find it interesting to hear the justifications people make when they decide to put themselves, their family, their friends, and the world in jeopardy. I know that Moral Relativism has become so popular that the idea of good and bad or right or wrong are supposedly obsolete concepts. However, I think the flaw in moral relativism is there is one fundamental objective/universal moral value:
do unto others as you would have them do unto you
In that case I would want others not to endanger me or my family or my family or the world.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 04, 2021, 09:10:46 AM
do unto others as you would have them do unto you
Rich: There are moral sub-issues in every issue involving societal interaction, the law, and constitutional rights.
I'm fairly sure that you're right to say there is an uncharacteristically weighty moral issue regarding the vaccine, but I'm not 100 percent certain. Haven't thought about it enough, I guess.
There is an even heavier moral issue regarding abortion, yet society and the law have provided reasonable (IMO) restrictions on the right of women to do with their own bodies as they see fit.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 04, 2021, 09:58:01 AM
Rich: There are moral sub-issues in every issue involving societal interaction, the law, and constitutional rights.
I'm fairly sure that you're right to say there is an uncharacteristically weighty moral issue regarding the vaccine, but I'm not 100 percent certain. Haven't thought about it enough, I guess.
There is an even heavier moral issue regarding abortion, yet society and the law have provided reasonable (IMO) restrictions on the right of women to do with their own bodies as they see fit.
Bob
Bob,
I would suggest that abortion is a very poor comparison as that is an issue that involves religious beliefs and personal beliefs and at best potentially impacts one other being (depending on your own beliefs).
This issue is far more factual rather than belief based. It is a FACT that not getting vaccinated increases the chances of a person contracting Covid, infecting others with Covid, and creating a variant that is more deadly or can negate the vaccine. Abortion is all about beliefs (mostly religious) and the right of governments to be used to force those beliefs on others.
Certainly, they have a right not to be vaccinated, but the hospital also has the right to fire them because of that fact, and a judge and the courts agree.
Quote from: LennG on July 04, 2021, 10:45:31 AM
Certainly, they have a right not to be vaccinated, but the hospital also has the right to fire them because of that fact, and a judge and the courts agree.
In my opinion if you want to care for patients, you should be required to be vaccinated for both Covid-19 and the flu. Both of those diseases allow you to be infectious without knowing. The first rule of medicine is do no harm. When you care for patients you frequently come in contact with the most medically vulnerable. To risk infecting them would violate medical ethics.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 04, 2021, 10:20:26 AM
Bob,
I would suggest that abortion is a very poor comparison as that is an issue that involves religious beliefs and personal beliefs and at best potentially impacts one other being (depending on your own beliefs).
This issue is far more factual rather than belief based. It is a FACT that not getting vaccinated increases the chances of a person contracting Covid, infecting others with Covid, and creating a variant that is more deadly or can negate the vaccine. Abortion is all about beliefs (mostly religious) and the right of governments to be used to force those beliefs on others.
Rich: Ok, but then I believe you would agree that anyone who objects to taking the vaccine primarily on religious grounds should be exempt from our discussion of the topic that is the basis of this thread. Bob
Rich probably has more (or better) info on this, but here's another angle on the issue.
https://slate.com/technology/2021/06/delta-variant-covid-vaccines-risk-monica-gandhi.html
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 04, 2021, 11:54:42 AM
Rich: Ok, but then I believe you would agree that anyone who objects to taking the vaccine primarily on religious grounds should be exempt from our discussion of the topic that is the basis of this thread. Bob
If you can find an organized religion that has an objection (I am not aware of any) that adds an extra element to the discussion but religious belief doesn't exempt them from the realities I have brought up.
The vast majority of the vaccine-hesitant (from my research) fall into two broad categories (looking beyond the superficial claims)
1) Those who are afraid to be vaccinated
2) Those who don't want the government to tell them what to do and/or don't care about others
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 04, 2021, 12:00:24 PM
Rich probably has more (or better) info on this, but here's another angle on the issue.
https://slate.com/technology/2021/06/delta-variant-covid-vaccines-risk-monica-gandhi.html
Bob,
This is an odd one. I have seen stats in two different ways. One set of stats (like the article you posted) suggest the vaccine is effective against the delta variant and there is nothing to worry about.
Then I see other stats that show that while maybe half of the non-vaccinated there are considerable numbers getting sick or dying from the variant despite being vaccinated. Look at Israel where indoor masking was reinstituted despite high vaccination rates.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 04, 2021, 12:43:04 PM
If you can find an organized religion that has an objection (I am not aware of any) that adds an extra element to the discussion but religious belief doesn't exempt them from the realities I have brought up.
The vast majority of the vaccine-hesitant (from my research) fall into two broad categories (looking beyond the superficial claims)
1) Those who are afraid to be vaccinated
2) Those who don't want the government to tell them what to do and/or don't care about others
Bob,
This is an odd one. I have seen stats in two different ways. One set of stats (like the article you posted) suggest the vaccine is effective against the delta variant and there is nothing to worry about.
Then I see other stats that show that while maybe half of the non-vaccinated there are considerable numbers getting sick or dying from the variant despite being vaccinated. Look at Israel where indoor masking was reinstituted despite high vaccination rates.
Rich: There are several religions that reject medical intervention generally, and there are a good number of court cases dealing with the interplay between freedom of religion and public health/safety.
As for the other thing, yes, our knowledge of the science is still somewhat unsettled, as the daily addition of new studies and data regarding new diseases continues. There are "outliers" on both sides of the equation.
Some people unexpectedly die, some unexpectedly recover, and at times it appears to be random and unpredictable. As we continue to learn more, outliers will be identified as such and "general rules" will develop.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 04, 2021, 02:15:30 PM
Rich: There are several religions that reject medical intervention generally, and there are a good number of court cases dealing with the interplay between freedom of religion and public health/safety.
As for the other thing, yes, our knowledge of the science is still somewhat unsettled, as the daily addition of new studies and data regarding new diseases continues. There are "outliers" on both sides of the equation.
Some people unexpectedly die, some unexpectedly recover, and at times it appears to be random and unpredictable. As we continue to learn more, outliers will be identified as such and "general rules" will develop.
Bob
Since I am addressing moral and ethical issues, what the law or courts say has no bearing. As for the unknown science, I suspect it
They had a big to-do a while back about the Measles and kids who were not vaccinated and a religious sect that said that they would not vaccinate them. They were NOT allowed back into school as a result.
Religious beliefs are one thing but you still have to think of the good of many against the good of a few.
Again, I believe the courts upheld the schools rights to bar kids who were not vaccinated.
It is a long time since I worried about my kids being vaccinated to go to school, but wasn't that the rule of thumb, you had to be vaccinated for whatever vaccines that were available in order to go to school?
Quote from: LennG on July 04, 2021, 04:17:54 PM
They had a big to-do a while back about the Measles and kids who were not vaccinated and a religious sect that said that they would not vaccinate them. They were NOT allowed back into school as a result.
Religious beliefs are one thing but you still have to think of the good of many against the good of a few.
Again, I believe the courts upheld the schools rights to bar kids who were not vaccinated.
It is a long time since I worried about my kids being vaccinated to go to school, but wasn't that the rule of thumb, you had to be vaccinated for whatever vaccines that were available in order to go to school?
Lenn: Those were long-standing, long-tested vaccines.
The covid vaccines were prepared hurriedly, have not been finally approved by the required authorities, and you had to sign a paper acknowledging that the product is still (in essence) an experimental-stage medicine.
The paper you signed also greatly narrows (and almost eliminates) your ability to file a products liability suit in the event that something goes wrong.
Bob
>Fauci said people who are fully vaxxed should "go the extra mile" and still wear a face mask in low-vaccinated areas.
>"Even as good as they are and highly effective, nothing is 100%," Fauci said on "Meet the Press."
>The Delta variant is causing higher hospitalizations in several states throughout the country.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said even people who are fully vaccinated should still "go the extra mile" to ensure protection in areas with low vaccination rates.
"Even as good as they are and highly effective, nothing is 100%," Fauci said of vaccines during an interview on NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday morning.
"If you put yourself in an environment in which you have a high level of viral dynamics and a very low level of vaccine, you might want to go the extra step and say: 'When I'm in that area where there's a considerable degree of viral circulation, I might want to go the extra mile to be cautious enough to make sure that I get the extra added level of protection,' Fauci said.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-fauci-says-fully-vaxxed-people-should-still-go-the-extra-mile-and-wear-face-masks-in-low-vaccination-areas/ar-AALLi06
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 03, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
They're not breaking the law. Should there be a law mandate? Should Vaxxed have an ID Card and should there be serious restrictions without one? We may soon be facing issues concerning Liberty in this country and many others.
So I'll touch on some of these questions. My personal beliefs that are contrary to the laws and the constitution are nothing more than my beliefs and I don't force feed them on anyone, contrary to those who repeatedly argue their points.
I believe that laws should be in place to protect anyone from harm caused by others. If a law doesn't exist and most people believe there should, then it should be explored. Personally, nobody should be forced to do anything as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. Bob brought up abortion. The people who cry the most about Liberty are the ones trying to tell other people what they can and can't do on this issue. They are also the ones who side against social programs that would support unwed mothers and to feed those in poverty.
There are two sides to this Vaxx issue. Legal and ethical. I was vaccinated back in February. I believe that everyone who can safely get the vaccine should get it but... I won't force that on anyone unless it's illegal, which it is not. We have seen statements by the WHO, the CDC and Fauci over the past year that have contradicted each other on occasion or made them backpedal after being proven wrong. That would include the former President.
The mantra is that masks work. They are available to anyone who wants to protect themselves whether they are Vaxxed or not. Is there conclusive irrefutable science that people who aren't vaccinated will cause a strain of a deadly variant that will put the world at risk? Apparently not because there is no law or Vaxx mandate. Btw, how can a law like that be enforced other than take away their liberty to buy or sell or have a job? I keep thing back to Revelations and the mark of the Beast in order to trade. Of course those that refuse to get their shot just because they are being difficult should face consequences and it's ok as far as I'm concerned that businesses and facilities can do what is necessary to protect their employees, customers and business. Take Lenn's example of medical workers who refuse to take the shot even though they are in a profession to protect and save lives. I agree they should not be allowed to work in an environment where they can cause harm to others. Should Government intervene? I don't believe so either way as to restrict business or take away the rights of a citizen. One exception would be if the consequences would be the extinction of our species.
In my perfect world, everyone gets vaccinated, the vaccine proves to be safe long term and Covid is reduced to a non-issue. I don't get to have my way because I belong to a Republic where there are other people who have rights. There is a danger to Democracy and Liberty once we take away the right of free speech even if those words are wrong or evil. Those words however should have consequences. Social media is a business and I believe they have the right to ban or suspend anyone but the Government shouldn't take away that right or make them do so. There's a danger in crossing a line of taking away civil Liberty where it sets up the next action and raises the bar.
I don't personally know anyone who refuses to get the vaccine based on their position of Civil Liberty but I know people who can't take it for medical reasons. I think those areas of the country where it is an issue didn't initially face what we faced here in NY-NJ. Once people they know or are close to start dying, a lot of them will re-thing their priorities. Although Wyoming and sparsely populated areas will never be in danger enough to get them to that point.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 05, 2021, 10:04:12 AM
Is there conclusive irrefutable science that people who aren't vaccinated will cause a strain of a deadly variant that will put the world at risk? Apparently not because there is no law or Vaxx mandate.
I am not seeing the logic of this answer. You jumped from science to politics (where laws come from). I am not following how political action or lack thereof provides scientific evidence
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 05, 2021, 10:25:22 AM
I am not seeing the logic of this answer. You jumped from science to politics (where laws come from). I am not following how political action or lack thereof provides scientific evidence
The assumption is that if science had enough evidence, government would take action. For example last year when the country was shut down for a month or when a vaccine was fast tracked or the mask mandate in public. The country and Govt are moving in the opposite direction.
Ed
I agree with just about everything you said. My one dissension is and always has been the 'free speech' thing. Yes, our constitution grants us all 'free speech' but that still doesn't give anyone the right to get up and yell 'FIRE' in a crowded place, with the result of causing a stampede and people getting injured. Can someone argue free speech and get away with that? There are, and have to be, restrictions for the public good.
Our constitution gives us the right to free speech, but that was intended to let anyone speak up against the government and not be persecuted for it, as it was in colonial days, right up to the present, we have the right to stand up on any soapbox and complain about the government with no fear of being locked up, as it is in so many other countries. Free speech is wonderful, but it just doesn't give people the right to do harm to others.
What did people do with the smallpox vaccine, the polio vaccine? Did the government make it mandatory that people get it? I'm not positive, but I would think not. But people weren't as obstinate then as they seem to be now. And schools and businesses have the right, for the greater good, to ban, fire, not let people in if they feel that any of those people can do harm to others. You want not to be vaccinated, fine, just be prepared to suffer whatever consequence that might come from it, and don't spout 'free speech' as their right.
Quote from: LennG on July 05, 2021, 11:21:18 AM
Ed
I agree with just about everything you said. My one dissension is and always has been the 'free speech' thing. Yes, our constitution grants us all 'free speech' but that still doesn't give anyone the right to get up and yell 'FIRE' in a crowded place, with the result of causing a stampede and people getting injured. Can someone argue free speech and get away with that? There are, and have to be, restrictions for the public good.
Our constitution gives us the right to free speech, but that was intended to let anyone speak up against the government and not be persecuted for it, as it was in colonial days, right up to the present, we have the right to stand up on any soapbox and complain about the government with no fear of being locked up, as it is in so many other countries. Free speech is wonderful, but it just doesn't give people the right to do harm to others.
What did people do with the smallpox vaccine, the polio vaccine? Did the government make it mandatory that people get it? I'm not positive, but I would think not. But people weren't as obstinate then as they seem to be now. And schools and businesses have the right, for the greater good, to ban, fire, not let people in if they feel that any of those people can do harm to others. You want not to be vaccinated, fine, just be prepared to suffer whatever consequence that might come from it, and don't spout 'free speech' as their right.
Len: Good post. One thing, however. The covid vaccines are technically not "finished products" in the scientific or legal sense.
But actually, today is no different than the past, at least insofar as the polio vaccine is concerned. Some parents chose not to vaccinate their children (for various reasons).
If you recall (assuming you've seen the short-lived TV series "American Dreams") this issue was depicted in season one; the younger son of the stars wore a brace because he had not been vaccinated and got polio.
Bob
Here is an article worth reading
https://news.google.com/articles/CBMia2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRpbWVzb2Zpc3JhZWwuY29tL2lzcmFlbC1jb25maXJtcy12YWNjaW5lLWxlc3MtZWZmZWN0aXZlLWFnYWluc3QtZGVsdGEtdmFyaWFudC1leWVzLXRoaXJkLWRvc2Uv0gFvaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGltZXNvZmlzcmFlbC5jb20vaXNyYWVsLWNvbmZpcm1zLXZhY2NpbmUtbGVzcy1lZmZlY3RpdmUtYWdhaW5zdC1kZWx0YS12YXJpYW50LWV5ZXMtdGhpcmQtZG9zZS9hbXAv?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
(null)
You need to reread every word I chose, Lenn. You
(null)
To be clear we have the right to yell fire in a theater with consequences.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 05, 2021, 03:44:09 PM
Here is an article worth reading
https://news.google.com/articles/CBMia2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnRpbWVzb2Zpc3JhZWwuY29tL2lzcmFlbC1jb25maXJtcy12YWNjaW5lLWxlc3MtZWZmZWN0aXZlLWFnYWluc3QtZGVsdGEtdmFyaWFudC1leWVzLXRoaXJkLWRvc2Uv0gFvaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGltZXNvZmlzcmFlbC5jb20vaXNyYWVsLWNvbmZpcm1zLXZhY2NpbmUtbGVzcy1lZmZlY3RpdmUtYWdhaW5zdC1kZWx0YS12YXJpYW50LWV5ZXMtdGhpcmQtZG9zZS9hbXAv?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
Rich: Good article. Relates to the Pfizer vaccine. Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 05, 2021, 03:50:24 PM
(null)
You need to reread every word I chose, Lenn. You
If someone is genuinely scared of the vaccine and believes, rightly or wrongly, that it is more dangerous to them than the disease itself, and does not place great significance on the argument that vaccinating oneself is better for the population at large and not just the individual, then I can understand why someone might make that decision. I don't personally agree with it, but I can see how someone could arrive at that.
What I don't think I understand though is why someone would choose not to get vaccinated purely because of "their position on civil liberty." Who has threatened their civil liberty? The government is not requiring people to get vaccinated, so why the need to protest and take some sort of statement at the expense of your and others' personal well being? Given the government is not forcing anyone to get the vaccine, why is not getting one akin to taking a stance on your civil liberty? Clearly it is anyone's right to do that and I am not suggesting it shouldn't be, but it does not make much sense to me. No one has forced them to do anything.
Trying to find where I heard this, but I thought it was relevant to the conversation:
99.5% of Covid related deaths right now are in unvaccinated people.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on July 06, 2021, 07:41:54 AM
Trying to find where I heard this, but I thought it was relevant to the conversation:
99.5% of Covid related deaths right now are in unvaccinated people.
That percentage is likely to decrease over time, since a huge number of the total deaths occurred when there were no vaccinations available and also before people were taking lots of precautions and before doctors/hospitals fully understood the disease.
No doubt though that if you're fully vaccinated your chances of dying from this are very low. They're not zero, but they're low enough that you should be able to feel a lot more comfortable in day to day life then prior to receiving the vaccine.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 05, 2021, 04:03:40 PM
Rich: Good article. Relates to the Pfizer vaccine. Bob
Bob,
There is very little difference, in my opinion, between Phizer and Moderna. They both use the same technology. So I will usually read any news on Pfizer or Moderna as applying to both.
As for the freedom aspect, I have to ask you guys- Why are there helmet laws for motorcycles?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 06, 2021, 08:50:09 AM
That percentage is likely to decrease over time, since a huge number of the total deaths occurred when there were no vaccinations available and also before people were taking lots of precautions and before doctors/hospitals fully understood the disease.
No doubt though that if you're fully vaccinated your chances of dying from this are very low. They're not zero, but they're low enough that you should be able to feel a lot more comfortable in day to day life then prior to receiving the vaccine.
I believe the measurement is from when vaccinations were deployed.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 06, 2021, 08:50:56 AM
Bob,
There is very little difference, in my opinion, between Phizer and Moderna. They both use the same technology. So I will usually read any news on Pfizer or Moderna as applying to both.
As for the freedom aspect, I have to ask you guys- Why are there helmet laws for motorcycles?
Rich: I'll answer your question.... because, eventually, as in the case of all constitutional rights, reasonable limitations are imposed. Also, in case you don't know, the insurance lobby is very powerful. LOL
(null)
Makes sense. They don
Quote from: uconnjack8 on July 06, 2021, 09:00:32 AM
I believe the measurement is from when vaccinations were deployed.
That's more interesting then. Needless to say I knew it was a high number. 99.5% is higher than I would have guessed though.
Here is another freedom related question:
Why are many recreational drugs illegal (at least at the federal level)? Why do we require prescriptions for medical drugs?
Also why are many of the same people who oppose the legalization of recreational drugs the strongest advocates for not wearing masks or getting vaccinated?
Why do adults need to wait until they are 21 to get alcohol?
Predictable
Ed,
Did you intend to post that last post on this thread? It appears to be unrelated to the discussion we are having
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 06, 2021, 10:22:31 AM
Ed,
Did you intend to post that last post on this thread? It appears to be unrelated to the discussion we are having
You're asking questions about decisions in Civil Liberty and this is a good article in how this Supreme Court has been moving so far and speculation in moving forward.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 06, 2021, 10:42:05 AM
You're asking questions about decisions in Civil Liberty and this is a good article in how this Supreme Court has been moving so far and speculation in moving forward.
I have been speaking morally and ethically the entire time. I have brought up laws that impinge on individual freedoms to challenge why those laws exist. There is an argument that not getting vaccinated is purely a personal choice and an issue of freedom.
Take the helmet laws. Society has a stake in if a person wears or doesn't wear a helmet while driving a motorcycle. After all, you more likely to die or be left in a vegetative state if you don't wear one and that death or disability is a cost to society. The bigger point is that what is and isn't allowed is not viewed and has never been viewed exclusively through the lens of individual freedom.
The bigger point I was making is that we have many laws infringing on individual freedom even when those freedoms in theory to not harm others (at the very least they harm others or have the potential to harm others much less than masks or vaccination).
Bringing up the Supreme Court distracts from the discussion and adds a political element, in my opinion.
Why is it most states, if not all, have laws against holding a cell phone while driving?
If we want to go down any road, any law will probably infringe on someone's civil rights.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 06, 2021, 10:52:23 AM
I have been speaking morally and ethically the entire time. I have brought up laws that impinge on individual freedoms to challenge why those laws exist. There is an argument that not getting vaccinated is purely a personal choice and an issue of freedom.
Take the helmet laws. Society has a stake in if a person wears or doesn't wear a helmet while driving a motorcycle. After all, you more likely to die or be left in a vegetative state if you don't wear one and that death or disability is a cost to society. The bigger point is that what is and isn't allowed is not viewed and has never been viewed exclusively through the lens of individual freedom.
The bigger point I was making is that we have many laws infringing on individual freedom even when those freedoms in theory to not harm others (at the very least they harm others or have the potential to harm others much less than masks or vaccination).
Bringing up the Supreme Court distracts from the discussion and adds a political element, in my opinion.
It is relevant. If someday a law is proposed that we all get chipped with medical information, it's going to have to get by the courts. If someday a wrongful termination suit is the result of being fired for not being vaccinated, it could go all the way up to the Supreme Court. Same if someone is denied access to a venue or a medical facility. These are all plausible scenarios. I know it's hard to keep the political aspect out of it but the article discusses conservative Judges doing the unexpected in some cases. These won't be partisan decisions. They will reflect the interpretation of the Constitution and other legal cases.
The Supreme Court ruled a while ago, I'm going to say about 100 but I'm not sure, that schools can require that students get vaccinated. It was required by our local school district to have specific shots. Small pox and polio are basically eradicated world wide. Around the year of 1900 the average life expectancy in the US was only 40 years. Today that number has doubled to 79 years. A large reason for this was vaccinations.
Lenn, in PA doesn't have a helmet law and Florida is another state that doesn't.
I think that the better example would be cigarette smoking being band in public places, work place or restaurant because of second hand smoke.
I remember a high school history teacher once told us our freedom is limited to protect the rights of others.
These states that have low vaccination rates like Mississippi which has less then 30% of it's population which is only 2.9 million. Just wait a few weeks after fourth of July parties the infection rates in these areas of the country where the vaccination rates are low will have outbreaks. Maybe then some of them will start to see the light but by then for some it might be to late.
I have an analogy. Let
This is a question more directed to people older than me (but anyone can answer)
Is it my imagination or as a nation we are losing our true patriotism and sense of civic duty?
I mean we have seen throughout the Covid crisis people's actions and that was detrimental to the nation's good (such as refusing to wear masks or get vaccinated) way too frequently. So is this normal or have we as a society become more selfish and self-centered and are trying to hide it under the banner of "freedom"?
It just seems to me the nation did a lot more sacrificing and pulling together for the common good during WW2 than we have through this Covid crisis.
Quote from: T200 on July 08, 2021, 11:42:24 AM
What if there is a legitimate reason for his not taking the vaccine, as in he has underlying medical conditions that could potentially be exacerbated by the vaccine, or worse, cause him to die?
In his particular case, the vaccine could be deadlier than the virus itself, hypothetically, of course.
To the best of my knowledge, there is only a very tiny portion of the population who potentially shouldn't get the vaccine. There are those such as immunocompromised where the vaccine might not work, but I am unaware of conditions where the CDC is saying it's safer to risk Covid rather than the vaccine. That's not to say some doctors haven't created their own personal standards that are not supported by the CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/covid-19-vaccines-us.html#underlying-conditions
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 06, 2021, 08:50:56 AM
Bob,
There is very little difference, in my opinion, between Phizer and Moderna. They both use the same technology. So I will usually read any news on Pfizer or Moderna as applying to both.
As for the freedom aspect, I have to ask you guys- Why are there helmet laws for motorcycles?
Insurance companies say so...that's why.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 08, 2021, 11:46:19 AM
To the best of my knowledge, there is only a very tiny portion of the population who potentially shouldn't get the vaccine. There are those such as immunocompromised where the vaccine might not work, but I am unaware of conditions where the CDC is saying it's safer to risk Covid rather than the vaccine. That's not to say some doctors haven't created their own personal standards that are not supported by the CDC
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/covid-19-vaccines-us.html#underlying-conditions
I just spoke to a long-time friend of mine last night. He shared with me that his older sister recently passed within days of receiving the second Moderna shot. She had no known health issues aside from musculoskeletal ailments from her time in the military. She was in her late 50s and was absolutely fine after the first dose and the 4 weeks in between. Four days after the second dose, she passed.
Quote from: T200 on July 08, 2021, 12:54:18 PM
I just spoke to a long-time friend of mine last night. He shared with me that his older sister recently passed within days of receiving the second Moderna shot. She had no known health issues aside from musculoskeletal ailments from her time in the military. She was in her late 50s and was absolutely fine after the first dose and the 4 weeks in between. Four days after the second dose, she passed.
I would be curious what the autopsy reveals. When you try and vaccinate an entire population there are going to be deaths after getting the vaccine that is unrelated. I am not saying that they are all unrelated, but when you start vaccinating well over 100 million people the odds are good there will be some coincidental deaths.
On the plus side, I know the government is doing an excellent job tracking and investigating any adverse reactions.
Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 08, 2021, 01:01:07 PM
I would be curious what the autopsy reveals. When you try and vaccinate an entire population there are going to be deaths after getting the vaccine that is unrelated. I am not saying that they are all unrelated, but when you start vaccinating well over 100 million people the odds are good there will be some coincidental deaths.
On the plus side, I know the government is doing an excellent job tracking and investigating any adverse reactions.
Right, I agree that there will be some unrelated and related deaths.
My initial response to Squibber was that there could be a very legitimate reason for the stranger in the restaurant to have refused the vaccine, not so much as to thumb his nose at others but to preserve his own life as much as possible.
I don't begrudge anyone refusing the vaccine. I also don't assume that they are inconsiderate, selfish, or uncaring about their fellow man/woman if they choose not to vaccinate.
Here's an interesting article on mRNA and Moderna's testing to use it against the flu as well:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/mrna-vaccine-technology-moves-to-flu-moderna-says-trial-has-begun/
Quote from: T200 on July 08, 2021, 01:19:56 PM
Right, I agree that there will be some unrelated and related deaths.
My initial response to Squibber was that there could be a very legitimate reason for the stranger in the restaurant to have refused the vaccine, not so much as to thumb his nose at others but to preserve his own life as much as possible.
I don't begrudge anyone refusing the vaccine. I also don't assume that they are inconsiderate, selfish, or uncaring about their fellow man/woman if they choose not to vaccinate.
Here's an interesting article on mRNA and Moderna's testing to use it against the flu as well:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/07/mrna-vaccine-technology-moves-to-flu-moderna-says-trial-has-begun/
The argument suggesting one is preserving life misses the comparative risk issue. When you evaluate risk, you need to consider the alternative. It's not like people are sitting safe at home and just going out and taking on the minute risk of the vaccine. Rather they are at risk of catching and being crippled by or killed by Covid.
It's like saying sky diving is dangerous. However, if you are in a plane that is crashing, jumping out and using a parachute is the better choice
Another analogy would be electrical storms. Being outside in one is dangerous. However, if the house you are in is on fire, it's safer to go outside into the storm than staying in the house that is on fire.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 08, 2021, 01:27:03 PM
The argument suggesting one is preserving life misses the comparative risk issue. When you evaluate risk, you need to consider the alternative. It's not like people are sitting safe at home and just going out and taking on the minute risk of the vaccine. Rather they are at risk of catching and being crippled by or killed by Covid.
It's like saying sky diving is dangerous. However, if you are in a plane that is crashing, jumping out and using a parachute is the better choice
Another analogy would be electrical storms. Being outside in one is dangerous. However, if the house you are in is on fire, it's safer to go outside into the storm than staying in the house that is on fire.
Let's be real here, though. We're talking self-preservation above all others. Those who have elected to take the vaccine have done so for their own health first, which also benefits others.
In your plane/parachute analogy as it relates to the vaccines, let's not leave out that some of those parachutes may be faulty and you know you could be grabbing one that doesn't open. You're taking a chance either way. I believe that, along with the distrust of science/media/government, is a big reason why some choose not to get vaccinated. They'd rather bet on surviving the crash landing than potentially grabbing a working chute.
Tim, just to put the odds in perspective. The number of cases of Covid worldwide is roughly equal to the number of Americans who have received at least one dose of the vaccine:
Deaths who MIGHT have died the vaccine- 5,946 people
Deaths from Covid- Over 4 million people
I am grateful to previous generations of Americans for going out and getting themselves vaccinated for smallpox and polio. Because they took action, those diseases which once afflicted millions are all but gone from developed societies. They did their part; now it's our turn. I got a vaccine as soon as it was available.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 08, 2021, 01:51:37 PM
Tim, just to put the odds in perspective. The number of cases of Covid worldwide is roughly equal to the number of Americans who have received at least one dose of the vaccine:
Deaths who MIGHT have died the vaccine- 5,946 people
Deaths from Covid- Over 4 million people
Rich,
First, you can add "MIGHT" for deaths from COVID as well, as we don't know that COVID actually killed them or if it was just the breeze that pushed them over.
Second, you don't have to convince me - I'm all for it. Hell, if they determine that future prevention would entail an annual vaccine, I'm there.
My point is that outside of life and death, there are no absolutes. I understand the reluctance to getting vaccinated. I don't agree with all the reasons that I've heard but in the end it doesn't matter whether I or anyone else agrees or disagrees with someone else's choice to get vaccinated.
Our youngest son doesn't want to get vaccinated because, in his words, "they came out with it too fast and I don't want to be a guinea pig for anyone." My response to him was, "you've been vaping for a number of years... you're already a guinea pig." In the end, it's still his choice. He still lives with us. My wife and I are both vaccinated (Pfizer for her, Moderna for me) and he wears a mask when he's out in public. I only point out the fallacy in his reason but he still has to own it. We encourage him to do the right thing and make good decisions. We can only hope and pray that he does.
It's not a guarantee that an unvaccinated person WILL get COVID and WILL pass it to someone else and THEY WILL DIE. It's a possibility. But the possibility also exists that it won't happen.
Quote from: LennG on July 04, 2021, 10:45:31 AM
Certainly, they have a right not to be vaccinated, but the hospital also has the right to fire them because of that fact, and a judge and the courts agree.
The employer sets conditions of employment. If the employee or prospective employee does not meet those conditions, they are subject to dismissal. In healthcare, they have to maintain certain certifications and annual training in order to meet other conditions of employment. I can see other hospitals making COVID vaccines mandatory as well.
Quote from: T200 on July 08, 2021, 11:42:24 AM
What if there is a legitimate reason for his not taking the vaccine, as in he has underlying medical conditions that could potentially be exacerbated by the vaccine, or worse, cause him to die?
In his particular case, the vaccine could be deadlier than the virus itself, hypothetically, of course.
Tim
For sure, we do not know if there are any underlying reasons for not getting the vaccine. BUT, like in your example, they have something different with their immune system, by God, they shouldn't be out in public without several masks and definitely not sitting INSIDE in a restaurant with no mask on. Who knows, as we have been saying, who is vaccinated and who is not. Doing what they're doing is like playing Russian Roulette with THEIR lives.
This goes way beyond some one civil rights. We have laws that prevent assisted suicide when someone may be terminal, but there is no law about some one, who MIGHT have a killer virus, being out in public, not know whom they could be infecting and killing. It's not OK to help some one die when they are already going to die, but it is OK to be out and maybe infect and kill strangers, just by being stubborn.
Something that hasn't been discussed on this topic (unless I missed it) is that there are thousands of people who had covid and now believe as many doctors believe that if you had covid you now have a natural immunity so don't think they need to get an additional vaccine.
I also find it interesting that people who have had the vaccine are concerned about sitting in a restaurant next to a table with people who have not been vaccinated. If you have been vaccinated and you believe that the vaccine works why are you worried?
Bill
Quote from: ps11yat14 on July 12, 2021, 07:54:57 AM
Something that hasn't been discussed on this topic (unless I missed it) is that there are thousands of people who had covid and now believe as many doctors believe that if you had covid you now have a natural immunity so don't think they need to get an additional vaccine.
I also find it interesting that people who have had the vaccine are concerned about sitting in a restaurant next to a table with people who have not been vaccinated. If you have been vaccinated and you believe that the vaccine works why are you worried?
Bill
The brother of one of the guys I worked with believed the dangerous and false claims that you don't need the vaccine if you already had covid.
He got Covid a second time and now he is dead.As for not wanting to sit next to a Covid variant factory at a restaurant, a bulletproof vest is great for protection. However, it doesn't mean you would want to test out its protection by walking through a gunfight.
Quote from: ps11yat14 on July 12, 2021, 07:54:57 AM
Something that hasn't been discussed on this topic (unless I missed it) is that there are thousands of people who had covid and now believe as many doctors believe that if you had covid you now have a natural immunity so don't think they need to get an additional vaccine.
My understanding - although your body does develop antibodies against Covid doctors were not certain how long that immunity might last, nor how strong the immunity actually is. Remember, Donald Trump had Covid and some time after he recovered he received the vaccine.
I also find it interesting that people who have had the vaccine are concerned about sitting in a restaurant next to a table with people who have not been vaccinated. If you have been vaccinated and you believe that the vaccine works why are you worried?
Bill, from everything we know the vaccine is not 100% effective at fighting Covid. I've been vaccinated but could still get it and be asymptomatic. My wearing a mask is just as much to protect me as it is to protect those who didn't receive a vaccine. Also, with the different variants popping up it's possible there will be one or more that is resistant to the vaccine.
Bill
Sad but true
Matthew Gertz
@MattGertz
What you say is true, but once again, politics enters a good discussion.
All good points made but the choice for vaccination is a personnel one and as many as 50 % of medical staff in hospitals are not vaccinated and over half of the CDC staff is not as well.
Covid is not an automatic death sentence if contracted by an individual. There is still a 96.5 % or higher survival rate with covid.
Quote from: LennG on July 12, 2021, 10:31:15 AM
What you say is true, but once again, politics enters a good discussion.
Funny, working in public health, that's how I feel about political propaganda stations like Fox "News" getting involved in a public health issue. There are few mixtures as toxic or dangerous as mixing politics with health and public health. We saw it when FOX news downplayed the threat, then they made wearing masks and practicing social distancing a bad thing, and now they are trying to keep the disease alive and kill people by campaigning against the vaccine.
There was a time where politics and culture wars didn't enter every damn issue.
Quote from: Woody on July 12, 2021, 10:54:42 AM
All good points made but the choice for vaccination is a personnel one and as many as 50 % of medical staff in hospitals are not vaccinated and over half of the CDC staff is not as well.
Covid is not an automatic death sentence if contracted by an individual. There is still a 96.5 % or higher survival rate with covid.
The political propaganda claim about the vaccination rate at the CDC is utterly false and was intended to kill as many Americans as possible.
Here is the fact check (that has been around for months) that proves that claim was a political lie
REUTERS FACT CHECK
MAY 20, 202111:09 AMUPDATED 2 MONTHS AGO
Fact Check-Fauci, Marks did not say 40% to 50% of CDC and FDA employees are
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Sorry you are right it is only about 40% of cdc employees not 50 %
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 12, 2021, 11:06:20 AM
Funny, working in public health, that's how I feel about political propaganda stations like Fox "News" getting involved in a public health issue. There are few mixtures as toxic or dangerous as mixing politics with health and public health. We saw it when FOX news downplayed the threat, then they made wearing masks and practicing social distancing a bad thing, and now they are trying to keep the disease alive and kill people by campaigning against the vaccine.
There was a time where politics and culture wars didn't enter every damn issue.
As I said, you are right in everything you say, but your rules say NO POLITICS and you have once again stepped over the line.
Quote from: Woody on July 12, 2021, 11:35:57 AM
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Sorry you are right it is only about 40% of cdc employees not 50 %
Political spin by the media on both sides is prevalent on all networks today. So I fact checked what was being discussed and found the spin not to be as wildly distorted as you claimed it to be.
That
Quote from: Woody on July 12, 2021, 02:31:53 PM
Political spin by the media on both sides is prevalent on all networks today. So I fact checked what was being discussed and found the spin not to be as wildly distorted as you claimed it to be.
That
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I find it troubling that you are fear mongering every time you post on this topic by saying that unvaccinated people are trying to kill you. Or that people that don
Quote from: Woody on July 14, 2021, 07:07:16 AM
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I find it troubling that you are fear mongering every time you post on this topic by saying that unvaccinated people are trying to kill you. Or that people that don
"In an informal analysis published on Medium, Meyerowitz-Katz compared the infection-fatality rates from influenza to several calculated around the world so far for COVID-19. Like COVID-19, influenza also has a high number of mild and asymptomatic infections. These cases are not accounted for in the majority of calculations of influenza severity made by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which rely instead on hospitalizations. For the flu, doctors and hospitals are less concerned with mild cases that don
Quote from: uconnjack8 on July 14, 2021, 10:11:43 AM
"In an informal analysis published on Medium, Meyerowitz-Katz compared the infection-fatality rates from influenza to several calculated around the world so far for COVID-19. Like COVID-19, influenza also has a high number of mild and asymptomatic infections. These cases are not accounted for in the majority of calculations of influenza severity made by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which rely instead on hospitalizations. For the flu, doctors and hospitals are less concerned with mild cases that don
as a bonus, while a definitive conclusion hasn't been reached, it appears that having Covid could lead to diabities
https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/can-covid-19-cause-diabetes
I was shut down for asking if the release of Fauci emails changed your opinion of him and virus edicts, too political. This isn't political though, follow your rules.
Get vaccinated or get sick. It's your choice and it has nothing to do with politics.
Quote from: katkavage on July 15, 2021, 05:12:45 PM
Get vaccinated or get sick. It's your choice and it has nothing to do with politics.
Well it sure as hell shouldn't!! It both saddens and sickens me that there are those who feel otherwise.
It is clear that whatever I say will be interpreted by some as evil and twist my words to be those of the worst person on planet.
For the record I am vaccinated and would encourage everyone to get the vaccine as well. However, I believe that it is still a personal decision for people to get the vaccine or not and they have the right not be be vaccinated. Many people have had problems with the vaccine and some people feel more time is needed to see what side effects there may be with it. Studies have shown problems young men / boys having heart issues and I saw a mother last week testifying before a committee explaining the crippling of her daughter after receiving the second dose of the vaccine.
People need to get all the facts they can about covid and the vaccine and let them make decisions at that point about wether or not to get the vaccine now or at some point or not at all.
There is still much to learn about covid and how to treat it.
The vaccine is the best weapon to stop the spread right now.
But information from our Government agencies , the WhO and other medical sources change frequently and vary from group to group and time to time.
Bully me all you want
Quote from: Woody on July 15, 2021, 06:25:33 PM
It is clear that whatever I say will be interpreted by some as evil and twist my words to be those of the worst person on planet.
For the record I am vaccinated and would encourage everyone to get the vaccine as well. However, I believe that it is still a personal decision for people to get the vaccine or not and they have the right not be be vaccinated. Many people have had problems with the vaccine and some people feel more time is needed to see what side effects there may be with it. Studies have shown problems young men / boys having heart issues and I saw a mother last week testifying before a committee explaining the crippling of her daughter after receiving the second dose of the vaccine.
People need to get all the facts they can about covid and the vaccine and let them make decisions at that point about wether or not to get the vaccine now or at some point or not at all.
There is still much to learn about covid and how to treat it.
The vaccine is the best weapon to stop the spread right now.
But information from our Government agencies , the WhO and other medical sources change frequently and vary from group to group and time to time.
Bully me all you want
Truth is everyone that contracts covid does not die from it and you imply that not getting vaccinated are trying to kill you . Did you not say that ?
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Quote from: Woody on July 15, 2021, 07:34:28 PM
Truth is everyone that contracts covid does not die from it and you imply that not getting vaccinated are trying to kill you . Did you not say that ?
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TRUTH is that if you don't get vaccinated and you contract Covid you are putting other people's lives in danger because with every Covid infection this is a chance (be it a small one) of creating a new deadly variant. There is also a chance you infect someone else who dies (they might even be vaccinated). You can also infect people who have immune issues who are not helped all that much by the vaccine or children who can't be vaccinated.
As a society, we are also on the hook for medical care and social support for those who are crippled by the disease.
I do not look kindly on those who are screwing everything up for refusing to be vaccinated. I feel no sense of hyperbole when I call out the EVIL people of the right-wing propaganda machine who are spreading false information about the vaccine and downplaying the threat of Covid.
Anyone that believes that not taking the vaccine ONLY is affecting the individual doesn't understand the situation,
Here are two young men who probably wished they had listened to me instead of Woody
A 24-year-old Georgia man who was hesitant about getting vaccinated against Covid-19 underwent a double lung transplant after months in the hospital battling the virus. His mother urges people to protect themselves and get the shots.
"I just don't want anyone else to go through this. It's horrific," the woman, Cheryl Bargatze Nuclo, told NBC affiliate WXIA of Atlanta. "It's not worth all the pain it's going to cause you and your family."
Janelle Janatowski of Toledo said her 25-year-old son has been hospitalized for three months after he contracted the coronavirus at work.
Over the past several months, her son, Marcus Hartford, has undergone three operations, one of them to remove part of his right lung, Janatowski said in a phone interview Thursday. After having spent 81 days on an ECMO machine, he was finally removed from it on Tuesday.
Hartford remains on a ventilator and may have to undergo a double lung transplant if his left lung isn't able to do the work of the right one.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/horrific-2-unvaccinated-covid-patients-require-lung-transplant-partial-lung-n1274102
Truth is not all of Fox News is telling people not to g vaccinated. In fact please give me an example. Most people have encouraged mask wearing an vaccinations when appropriate.
The major objection I see from them is that if people get vaccinated some government officials are requiring people to continue to wear masks. That is taking a major incentive to get vaccinated away.
I appreciate your work in health services . It cannot be easy these days, but saying people that wont get vaccinated are trying to kill others is a little extreme in my opinion.
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Quote from: Woody on July 15, 2021, 07:49:39 PM
Truth is not all of Fox News is telling people not to g vaccinated. In fact please give me an example. Most people have encouraged mask wearing an vaccinations when appropriate.
The major objection I see from them is that if people get vaccinated some government officials are requiring people to continue to wear masks. That is taking a major incentive to get vaccinated away.
I appreciate your work in health services . It cannot be easy these days, but saying people that wont get vaccinated are trying to kill others is a little extreme in my opinion.
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Woody,
It's scary and dangerous how you and so many others are so detached from reality. I can't believe that you wouldn't believe that FOX News and the right are lying and pushing anti-vax messages. It's like you are all in a cult. Here WATCH this video (which I am sure you are going to claim is doctored). Not that you can't explain it's where Trump was popular where people are not getting vaccinated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEJufOyAbis
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZEJufOyAbis" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Watched it ! Tucker Carlson and Shawn Hannity are opinion shows much like Rachael Maddox etc.
News people/ shows during the day are much different and regularly seek opinions from people on both sides of an issue being discussed.
Have you ever watched Fox during the. Day or at all?
Or do you form your opinion of Fox and conservatives from CNN news clips?
I would encourage you to give Fox a try , during the day if possible.
Or record some shows . The Fox News shows I have seen all encourage people to get vaccinated, wear masks where required etc. As well as many Conservative politicians.
Although I am not sure CNN would report that .
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Quote from: Woody on July 15, 2021, 08:15:20 PM
Watched it ! Tucker Carlson and Shawn Hannity are opinion shows much like Rachael Maddox etc.
News people/ shows during the day are much different and regularly seek opinions from people on both sides of an issue being discussed.
Have you ever watched Fox during the. Day or at all?
Or do you form your opinion of Fox and conservatives from CNN news clips?
I would encourage you to give Fox a try , during the day if possible.
Or record some shows . The Fox News shows I have seen all encourage people to get vaccinated, wear masks where required etc. As well as many Conservative politicians.
Although I am not sure CNN would report that .
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So you are denying that FOX news is encouraging people not to get vaccinated even after you witnessed them doing exactly that with your own eyes and ears.... truly remarkable. I weep for the future of my nation and the world.
I really don't know why I keep falling for it. Woody called out my claims, I provided irrefutable proof and he still denied what I said. I know you guys always challenge my actual facts and you guys will always ignore or deny the results when I meet the challenges you inevitably issue. Yet over and over again I make the effort to support and prove what I say.
I remember reading somewhere that I should be appealing to your feelings, that facts are the enemy. I am beginning to think they were right
I saw two 10 second clips of opinion shows on Fox. That is not representative of the whole network or the many news shows aired everyday. Nor does it condemn the whole network as you are saying. Just my opinion of course.
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Quote from: Woody on July 15, 2021, 08:34:16 PM
I saw two 10 second clips of opinion shows on Fox. That is not representative of the whole network or the many news shows aired everyday. Nor does it condemn the whole network as you are saying. Just my opinion of course.
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Woody, while I have witnessed a few on Fox News call out anti vax sentiment, the fact remains that the opinion shows, Tucker Carlson, Hannity, The Five, and Laura Ingram are Fox
I stopped calling it FOX News, because they don't show the news only their opinions. A News show needs to report the news fairly and not sway people with opinions.
From now on it is just FOX.
Is CNN and MSNBC different than Fox in they are opinion shows as well.
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Morning Joe is a news show ?
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Quote from: Woody on July 15, 2021, 09:46:49 PM
Morning Joe is a news show ?
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Morning Joe is $h!t. A judge recently ruled that Rachel Maddow's show is not factual and should not be taken that way so when she says something is "literally" anything, you should take that to mean it is literally meaningless drivel. Yet we have half the country convinced the charlatan is a hard hitting investigatory journalist. But I'm not sure she's convinced anyone so much as she is providing ammo the half is willing to use no matter where it comes from or whether it works.
The idea that anyone would watch TV as a way of getting "information" with which to make the critical decision about getting vaxed or not, rather than simply listening to their own trusted doctor (or any number of other doctors), all of whom are infinitely more knowledgeable on this subject than any journalist, politician, or other medical layperson, and virtually all of whom are motivated by public health and not by politics, is what perplexes me the most. Why do people think they know more than MD doctors on this subject? Do they actually think every doctor out there is now complicit with the "deep state" and is deliberately spewing out harmful advice that is not in their patients' best interests? I find that both troubling and bizarre, to say the least.
However, what people choose to legally do or not do with their own bodies is their decision. Yes, they put others at risk by not vaccinating, but the overwhelming majority of others they are putting at material risk are other like-minded individuals who have, for whatever reason, made this same choice. That does not make their lives less valuable in my opinion, but they did make a conscious choice and therefore have indicated that they are prepared to live (or die) with the consequences.
Quote from: Woody on July 15, 2021, 09:45:18 PM
Is CNN and MSNBC different than Fox in they are opinion shows as well.
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Those networks are not killing and maiming people by telling them not to get vaccinated HUGE HUGE HUGE difference
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 16, 2021, 03:21:19 AM
The idea that anyone would watch TV as a way of getting "information" with which to make the critical decision about getting vaxed or not, rather than simply listening to their own trusted doctor (or any number of other doctors), all of whom are infinitely more knowledgeable on this subject than any journalist, politician, or other medical layperson, and virtually all of whom are motivated by public health and not by politics, is what perplexes me the most. Why do people think they know more than MD doctors on this subject? Do they actually think every doctor out there is now complicit with the "deep state" and is deliberately spewing out harmful advice that is not in their patients' best interests? I find that both troubling and bizarre, to say the least.
However, what people choose to legally do or not do with their own bodies is their decision. Yes, they put others at risk by not vaccinating, but the overwhelming majority of others they are putting at material risk are other like-minded individuals who have, for whatever reason, made this same choice. That does not make their lives less valuable in my opinion, but they did make a conscious choice and therefore have indicated that they are prepared to live (or die) with the consequences.
I think you nailed it with that bold part. There are plenty of places to get factual information about the vaccine. I think those that are pulling information from TV opinion shows are the epitome of American apathy and intellectual laziness.
I do have an issue with people that can get the vaccine (they are healthy enough and old enough) that are not because there are those that cannot get it and they are also being put in danger.
Bottom line to me is that places with low vax rates are likely to have huge surges (already started) and potentially cause more shutdowns and/or hospitals to be above capacity. We are already seeing more cases of advanced cancers because routine screenings were largely not performed during the pandemic.
https://www.astro.org/News-and-Publications/News-and-Media-Center/News-Releases/2021/COVID-19-pandemic-has-led-to-more-advanced-stage-c
I also love the diplomatic response "Well it's a personal decision and I respect that." So it's a personal decision not to get vaccinated and in doins go you are endangering others and most likely your loved ones who also are not, or cannot, be vaccinated. The decision is a selfish one. Let's call it what it is.
Quote from: jimmyz on July 15, 2021, 10:58:37 PM
Morning Joe is $h!t. A judge recently ruled that Rachel Maddow's show is not factual and should not be taken that way so when she says something is "literally" anything, you should take that to mean it is literally meaningless drivel. Yet we have half the country convinced the charlatan is a hard hitting investigatory journalist. But I'm not sure she's convinced anyone so much as she is providing ammo the half is willing to use no matter where it comes from or whether it works.
So let me get this straight. Jimmy, you are perfectly okay with FOX news using their power to convince people not to get vaccinated with the broadcast of their anti-Vax propaganda. I mean it's so bad that one FOX news viewer, Woody, posted false information that would discourage vaccination (giving false data to suggest people at the CDC were not getting vaccinated). Now, this effort is clearly working as the areas where FOX News is most popular have the lowest vaccination rates. As a result of FOX New's anti-Vax efforts people are needlessly dying or being maimed.
You are fine with all of that, just because a woman on a different network is espousing political opinions that you don't agree with.
I can't help but feel that is the attitude that is causing our country to end up in the crapper.
Quote from: Sem on July 15, 2021, 09:10:08 PM
Woody, while I have witnessed a few on Fox News call out anti vax sentiment, the fact remains that the opinion shows, Tucker Carlson, Hannity, The Five, and Laura Ingram are Fox
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2021, 08:42:52 AM
So let me get this straight. Jimmy, you are perfectly okay with FOX news using their power to convince people not to get vaccinated with the broadcast of their anti-Vax propaganda. I mean it's so bad that one FOX news viewer, Woody, posted false information that would discourage vaccination (giving false data to suggest people at the CDC were not getting vaccinated). Now, this effort is clearly working as the areas where FOX News is most popular have the lowest vaccination rates. As a result of FOX New's anti-Vax efforts people are needlessly dying or being maimed.
You are fine with all of that, just because a woman on a different network is espousing political opinions that you don't agree with.
I can't help but feel that is the attitude that is causing our country to end up in the crapper.
I spent a couple of days in South Carolina and saw their version of Fox and Friends. You don't know the half of it. They have a lot of people brainwashed about a lot of horseshit.
Any take on the Yankees who were vaccinated and now have Covid? One game PPD.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 16, 2021, 10:05:22 AM
Any take on the Yankees who were vaccinated and now have Covid? One game PPD.
No question you can still catch covid if you are vaccinated. Rich Eisen is another example besides the one you mentioned.
The good news of course is that you are extremely unlikely to get dangerously ill if you have received the vaccine, even with the new variant. The data is very encouraging on this point:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/delta-variant-hospitalizations-covid-coronavirus-vaccine-immunity-11626374706?mod=hp_opin_pos_1
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 16, 2021, 10:09:18 AM
No question you can still catch covid if you are vaccinated. Rich Eisen is another example besides the one you mentioned.
The good news of course is that you are extremely unlikely to get dangerously ill if you have received the vaccine, even with the new variant. The data is very encouraging on this point:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/delta-variant-hospitalizations-covid-coronavirus-vaccine-immunity-11626374706?mod=hp_opin_pos_1
Still though a person can get sick. I'm wondering if it's prudent to wear the mask again indoors in public places.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 16, 2021, 10:05:22 AM
Any take on the Yankees who were vaccinated and now have Covid? One game PPD.
I don't have as much data as I would like, but I do know this:
The Yankees were over 85% vaccinated. That allowed them to reduce restrictions. It was reported that out of the 6 positive tests, "the majority were vaccinated" which I interpret to mean 4 were vaccinated and 2 were not. Medical experts believe that if you have an asymptomatic infection when vaccinated, you are less likely to spread the virus because your virus loads are much lower.
A major problem is the new Delta Variant. That variant seems to have more vaccinated people becoming infected than the other variants. Thankfully the vast majority of vaccinated people are not getting seriously sick or dying.
Based on all of this info, I would suspect that it was an unvaccinated player that was patient zero for the outbreak on the team. Since they are unvaccinated they are more likely to contract the virus and to spread the virus.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 16, 2021, 10:17:37 AM
Still though a person can get sick. I'm wondering if it's prudent to wear the mask again indoors in public places.
Ed,
I don't wear a mask outdoors, but if I go shopping or I am indoors where I don't know if I will be around unvaccinated people I still wear a mask (I step down to a surgical level mask, rather than a KN95 level). My feeling is the vaccine is like a bullet-proof vest. The vest provides protection but that doesn't mean you want to test that protection by walking through a gunfight.
I can also tell you that Israel is back to masking up indoors. Israel has a high vaccination rate and they vaccinated quicker than our nation did. So they are sort of the canary in the coal mine, so to speak. If you want to get a sense of what's coming in the future, watch what is happening in Israel.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2021, 10:21:12 AM
I don't have as much data as I would like, but I do know this:
The Yankees were over 85% vaccinated. That allowed them to reduce restrictions. It was reported that out of the 6 positive tests, "the majority were vaccinated" which I interpret to mean 4 were vaccinated and 2 were not. Medical experts believe that if you have an asymptomatic infection when vaccinated, you are less likely to spread the virus because your virus loads are much lower.
A major problem is the new Delta Variant. That variant seems to have more vaccinated people becoming infected than the other variants. Thankfully the vast majority of vaccinated people are not getting seriously sick or dying.
Based on all of this info, I would suspect that it was an unvaccinated player that was patient zero for the outbreak on the team. Since they are unvaccinated they are more likely to contract the virus and to spread the virus.
How can any Major Sports Organization allow any player to be with the rest of the team if they are unvaccinated? They don't wear masks. I know it would be foolish to believe that in general population, unvaccinated people wear masks. There are millions of dollars at stake in MLB.
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 16, 2021, 10:28:47 AM
How can any Major Sports Organization allow any player to be with the rest of the team if they are unvaccinated? They don't wear masks. I know it would be foolish to believe that in general population, unvaccinated people wear masks. There are millions of dollars at stake in MLB.
From what I could gather (I couldn't find a first-hand copy of the rules) all players can go maskless in the bullpen and the dugout if they are 85%. Outside of that those who are vaccinated are supposed to continue to wear a mask but there are clauses that allow them to briefly remove their masks in many places and having enforced a mask mandate in an office setting essentially makes it nearly impossible to ensure the unvaccinated actually follow the rules. You could make a big deal if you caught someone without a mask when one has to wear it at all times in certain areas or activities. As I could see the rules, the best a team could do is if they see an unvaccinated player maskless for a period of time they can ask him to put his mask back on or pull it up over his nose.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2021, 10:54:07 AM
From what I could gather (I couldn't find a first-hand copy of the rules) all players can go maskless in the bullpen and the dugout if they are 85%. Outside of that those who are vaccinated are supposed to continue to wear a mask but there are clauses that allow them to briefly remove their masks in many places and having enforced a mask mandate in an office setting essentially makes it nearly impossible to ensure the unvaccinated actually follow the rules. You could make a big deal if you caught someone without a mask when one has to wear it at all times in certain areas or activities. As I could see the rules, the best a team could do is if they see an unvaccinated player maskless for a period of time they can ask him to put his mask back on or pull it up over his nose.
This is a league rule or mandated by the Player's Association?
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 16, 2021, 11:02:22 AM
This is a league rule or mandated by the Player's Association?
I am pretty sure the rules were negotiated and agreed upon between MLB and MLBPA
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2021, 11:05:40 AM
I am pretty sure the rules were negotiated and agreed upon between MLB and MLBPA
Thanks Rich for all the replies.
I read this in my paper today (if that is allowed these days)..
Quote2 NFL teams remain under 50% vaccinated
https://apnews.com/article/sports-football-health-coronavirus-pandemic-nfl-28b509f34f24a919750dc6c20b787c79?mkt_tok=ODUwLVRBQS01MTEAAAF-Ti2mxxdNg4C5yoo-DDYsVaQ8-OMwoy3slXzVaBIogsW4_HD654LHhPSNo85N64dCXSxEYgv6RaPA4oxmKQnh-xmCUB29TaWb3gVMuDapcEIZ
It also goes on to say that
Pittsburgh, Miami, Carolina, and Denver have the highest vaccination rates and are among 10 teams that have achieved at least 85%.
About 73% of players have been vaccinated. Teams on the lower end of the vaccination table face potential competitive disadvantages.
I thought that to play, the NFL said everyone must be vaccinated? I guess I was wrong. What kind of stupidity is this now? And where do the Giants fit into this? Are we going to go back t o games cancelled on Thirsday, being played Mon, Tues, Wed? Whyaren't every player vaccinated in order to assure a regular season without any hiccups.
(null)
That
Quote from: LennG on July 16, 2021, 05:21:17 PM
I read this in my paper today (if that is allowed these days)..
https://apnews.com/article/sports-football-health-coronavirus-pandemic-nfl-28b509f34f24a919750dc6c20b787c79?mkt_tok=ODUwLVRBQS01MTEAAAF-Ti2mxxdNg4C5yoo-DDYsVaQ8-OMwoy3slXzVaBIogsW4_HD654LHhPSNo85N64dCXSxEYgv6RaPA4oxmKQnh-xmCUB29TaWb3gVMuDapcEIZ
It also goes on to say that
Pittsburgh, Miami, Carolina, and Denver have the highest vaccination rates and are among 10 teams that have achieved at least 85%. About 73% of players have been vaccinated. Teams on the lower end of the vaccination table face potential competitive disadvantages.
I thought that to play, the NFL said everyone must be vaccinated? I guess I was wrong. What kind of stupidity is this now? And where do the Giants fit into this? Are we going to go back t o games cancelled on Thirsday, being played Mon, Tues, Wed? Whyaren't every player vaccinated in order to assure a regular season without any hiccups.
Len,
I am sure the fans who were supporting and defending Toney for his anti-Vax stance will be calling for his head if he has to miss games or infects other players. The NFL couldn't mandate the Vaccine, but to their credit, they made it very unpleasant for those that refuse to get vaccinated
(https://i.imgur.com/35CDn0s.png)
As to where the Giants fit in, I haven't heard a peep. I think the Giants getting to the 85% mark will be a test of Judge's coaching ability.
Here is an interesting Twitter thread from a virologist discussing the Delta variant
Dr. Angela Rasmussen
Excessively direct virologist. PI @VIDOInterVac. Affiliate @georgetown_ghss. Emerging virus host responses. 1X Jeopardy! loser. Rep: @anniescranton. she/her
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1415672461111271424.html
Quote from: Shoelessjoe on July 07, 2021, 08:51:26 PM
The Supreme Court ruled a while ago, I'm going to say about 100 but I'm not sure, that schools can require that students get vaccinated. It was required by our local school district to have specific shots. Small pox and polio are basically eradicated world wide. Around the year of 1900 the average life expectancy in the US was only 40 years. Today that number has doubled to 79 years. A large reason for this was vaccinations.
Lenn, in PA doesn't have a helmet law and Florida is another state that doesn't.
I think that the better example would be cigarette smoking being band in public places, work place or restaurant because of second hand smoke.
I remember a high school history teacher once told us our freedom is limited to protect the rights of others.
These states that have low vaccination rates like Mississippi which has less then 30% of it's population which is only 2.9 million. Just wait a few weeks after fourth of July parties the infection rates in these areas of the country where the vaccination rates are low will have outbreaks. Maybe then some of them will start to see the light but by then for some it might be to late.
I posted this a few weeks ago just after the fourth of July. Look at the states that are now hotspots. Look at how these states medical facilities are now being taxed to beyond what they can handle.
I saw a stat the other day that 99.5% of the Covid deaths in this country are attributed to people who are not vaccinated. That's 199 out of 200. These vaccinations do work.
On a related but not USA Covid subject. There was an article in the Times today that the continent of Africa where Covid is rampant they are in desperate need of vaccines they just can't secure that would impact the continent. The US should divert the vaccines, that are not being used by those states where their people will not protect themselves, to Africa. If this were done you would definitely see outcries by the same people or groups that don't want to be vaccinated.
The bottom line, if we don't start address this virus on an international basis the world will not get out of this mess anytime soon.
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-in-their-own-words-six-months-later/
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Quote from: MightyGiants on July 16, 2021, 10:24:07 AM
Ed,
I don't wear a mask outdoors, but if I go shopping or I am indoors where I don't know if I will be around unvaccinated people I still wear a mask (I step down to a surgical level mask, rather than a KN95 level). My feeling is the vaccine is like a bullet-proof vest. The vest provides protection but that doesn't mean you want to test that protection by walking through a gunfight.
I can also tell you that Israel is back to masking up indoors. Israel has a high vaccination rate and they vaccinated quicker than our nation did. So they are sort of the canary in the coal mine, so to speak. If you want to get a sense of what's coming in the future, watch what is happening in Israel.
Here is why:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/06/science/Israel-Pfizer-covid-vaccine.html
"
And on Monday, Israel
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 19, 2021, 09:06:06 AM
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-in-their-own-words-six-months-later/
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Thanks for posting this, I found the article extremely helpful and enlightening.
Here
Vaccination stats by race (Kaiser Family Foundation article; don't blame me):
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/
Percentage of people (by race) that have received at least 1 dose:
Whites: 40%
Blacks: 34%
Hispanic: 39%
Asian: 62%
Just a month ago the projected numbers across the board were above 50%. The vaccination rate seems to have slowed down since then. Just a slow month or an indicator of how many people are reluctant to trust the vaccine?
Either way, I'd be willing to bet they're not all Fox viewers.
I wasn't going to post this but with Jimmy defending the immoral behavior of FOX News, these stats really show how deadly FOX News really is
https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-has-undermined-vaccination-efforts-nearly-60-all-vaccination-segments-2-week-period
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 19, 2021, 05:34:13 PM
I wasn't going to post this but with Jimmy defending the immoral behavior of FOX News, these stats really show how deadly FOX News really is
https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/fox-has-undermined-vaccination-efforts-nearly-60-all-vaccination-segments-2-week-period
How am I defending Fox news? And you use Media Matters as a source?
Quote from: jimmyz on July 19, 2021, 05:49:13 PM
How am I defending Fox news? And you use Media Matters as a source?
Jimmy thank you for standing up and doing the right thing. I am glad you are joining us in calling out the immoral people at FOX News
So while its perfectly ok to blame Fox News, guess who Biden is blaming? Facebook. I'm surprised nobody wants to mention the White House 'gently' suggesting Facebook ban people and that if someone is banned on one platform that they should be banned everywhere. And yes it is in the context of Covid 'misinformation' or 'disinformation' (there seems to be some hubbub about the distinction between these terms)...but the White House hasn't specifically stated that it need be limited to Covid related posts.
Quote from: jimmyz on July 20, 2021, 05:02:12 PM
So while its perfectly ok to blame Fox News, guess who Biden is blaming? Facebook. I'm surprised nobody wants to mention the White House 'gently' suggesting Facebook ban people and that if someone is banned on one platform that they should be banned everywhere. And yes it is in the context of Covid 'misinformation' or 'disinformation' (there seems to be some hubbub about the distinction between these terms)...but the White House hasn't specifically stated that it need be limited to Covid related posts.
The government cannot limit freedom of speach, expression, etc., private companies can and it's an accepted practice...
The infection rate in the tri-state area doubled, or more in some cases since July 1st. The chances are that the 4th of July celebration, BBQs and other parties did contribute this increase. If you look at the trend chart below, it's hard not to notice similarities to last year's trends:
https://aatishb.com/covidtrends/?region=US&trendline=false&location=Connecticut&location=New+Jersey&location=New+York
The trend does not differentiate between vaccinated/non-vaccinated people getting infected. In either case, I do hope we will not re-live last year's fall/winter.
PS: Everyone in my family has been fully vaccinated, except the grankids...
Quote from: Blue4Life on July 20, 2021, 05:35:14 PM
The government cannot limit freedom of speach, expression, etc., private companies can and it's an accepted practice...
Can they coerce?
In your catalog of accepted practices do you have such an example of a company granted immunity from legal action for content posted having a list of users sent to them by the whitehouse with a suggestion to delete their content or ban them? Or are you gonna tell me that a company firing someone for expressing views the company finds objectionable the same thing?
I dont think we're making an apples to apples comparison here. Do you?
Quote from: jimmyz on July 20, 2021, 06:50:23 PM
Can they coerce?
In your catalog of accepted practices do you have such an example of a company granted immunity from legal action for content posted having a list of users sent to them by the whitehouse with a suggestion to delete their content or ban them? Or are you gonna tell me that a company firing someone for expressing views the company finds objectionable the same thing?
I dont think we're making an apples to apples comparison here. Do you?
Sorry jimmyz, it's not a subject that should be discussed further on this board...
Quote from: jimmyz on July 20, 2021, 05:02:12 PM
So while its perfectly ok to blame Fox News, guess who Biden is blaming? Facebook. I'm surprised nobody wants to mention the White House 'gently' suggesting Facebook ban people and that if someone is banned on one platform that they should be banned everywhere. And yes it is in the context of Covid 'misinformation' or 'disinformation' (there seems to be some hubbub about the distinction between these terms)...but the White House hasn't specifically stated that it need be limited to Covid related posts.
Jimmy, I have to honestly ask do you actually care about America or Americans? It appears the ONLY thing you care about is your political agenda and people's lives be damned. While you admit that the evil people at FOX News are literally killing people with their misinformation-based anti-vax messaging, other than not defending you REFUSE to talk about it and tangentially try to defend FOX by changing the subject or making inappropriate comparisons.
Yes, let us talk about Facebook. For my job, I posted pro-vaccine messaging. Facebook is so overrun with evil or misguided (you take your pick) anti-vaxxers that I had to go on the platform every hour to remove the false anti-vaxxer claims that were posted in response to the pro-vaccine message. So President Biden was correct to call out Facebook's negligence in policing their platform for deadly misinformation.
As for suspending accounts, it seems Jimmy you are far angrier than your Republicans got suspended from Twitter for killing people by spreading FALSE information to keep people from being vaccinated, than you are about the deaths caused by the misinformation these elected officials are posting and the deaths they are causing.
I have to say from where I sit, it appears you really don't like my country and don't care about my fellow Americans, because there are two sides those trying to save lives and shockingly people trying to kill people. You seem to be taking the position of attacking the life savers and indirectly trying to defend the killers
We had an interesting experience with the vaccine issue. My wife invited her aunt and her aunt
Quote from: squibber on July 21, 2021, 08:35:13 AM
We had an interesting experience with the vaccine issue. My wife invited her aunt and her aunt
Squibber here is another excellent take on this issue:
QuoteEvery year, I try to do at least two things with my students at least once. First, I make a point of addressing them as
MightyGiants, interesting reads. I read somewhere that if you bash someone for their flawed belief, they will just dig their heels in.
I think Biden should have a town hall meeting on tv with a panel of scientists and go into the technology of the vaccine, how it works in the body and why it is safe. It will at least convince reasonable people who are a bit fearful of the new technology.
Quote from: squibber on July 21, 2021, 11:16:31 AM
MightyGiants, interesting reads. I read somewhere that if you bash someone for their flawed belief, they will just dig their heels in.
I think Biden should have a town hall meeting on tv with a panel of scientists and go into the technology of the vaccine, how it works in the body and why it is safe. It will at least convince reasonable people who are a bit fearful of the new technology.
Squibber,
This article describes techniques and approaches that can work to change people's minds.
https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2019/12/change-someones-mind/
These techniques will usually not work online. It also takes a lot of time and patience to try and break though to people (I have read the book referenced in the article)
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/20/politics/white-house-section-230-facebook/index.html
It appears the white house is reviewing section 230 now which protects social media platforms from liability for content posted.
Quote(CNN)The White House is reviewing whether social media platforms should be held legally accountable for publishing misinformation via Section 230, a law that protects companies' ability to moderate content, White House communications director Kate Bedingfield said Tuesday.
The Section 230 debate is taking on new urgency in recent days as the administration has called on social media platforms to take a more aggressive stance on combating misinformation. The federal law, which is part of the Communications Decency Act, provides legal immunity to websites that moderate user-generated content.
"We're reviewing that, and certainly they should be held accountable," Bedingfield told MSNBC when asked about Section 230 and whether social media companies like Facebook should be liable and open to lawsuits for publishing false information that causes Americans harm
None of this even remotely resembles standard practice of private companies as we traditionally think of it. This is not a private company acting on their own. This is government coercing a private company to act at the former's behest.
It's as open and ham fisted as anything Trump would do. It looks like section 230 is getting attacked from two sides.
Where Trump wanted to remove protection under 230 based on the fact that social media were not acting as neutral speech platforms and were in fact acting as editors, it appears Biden is wanting to remove protection based on the fact that, at least in the case of Facebook, they're not editing as much as the White House would like.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 21, 2021, 07:36:24 AM
Jimmy, I have to honestly ask do you actually care about America or Americans? It appears the ONLY thing you care about is your political agenda and people's lives be damned. While you admit that the evil people at FOX News are literally killing people with their misinformation-based anti-vax messaging, other than not defending you REFUSE to talk about it and tangentially try to defend FOX by changing the subject or making inappropriate comparisons.
Yes, let us talk about Facebook. For my job, I posted pro-vaccine messaging. Facebook is so overrun with evil or misguided (you take your pick) anti-vaxxers that I had to go on the platform every hour to remove the false anti-vaxxer claims that were posted in response to the pro-vaccine message. So President Biden was correct to call out Facebook's negligence in policing their platform for deadly misinformation.
As for suspending accounts, it seems Jimmy you are far angrier than your Republicans got suspended from Twitter for killing people by spreading FALSE information to keep people from being vaccinated, than you are about the deaths caused by the misinformation these elected officials are posting and the deaths they are causing.
I have to say from where I sit, it appears you really don't like my country and don't care about my fellow Americans, because there are two sides those trying to save lives and shockingly people trying to kill people. You seem to be taking the position of attacking the life savers and indirectly trying to defend the killers
?
I was watching a report on one of the network news shows this AM. Doesn't really matter which one, but they were in Louisiana, and interviewing people, still in the hospital getting over Covid. They interviewed 4 people, all middle age and removing, and none were vaccinated. Three of them shook their heads and said if they had it to do all over again, they would have gotten vaccinated, now knowing what they would have to go thru. Ther 4th a male, mid-'40s swore up and down that he would go thru it all over again instead of protecting himself with a vaccine. he said it was hell, but he would never put that vaccine in him because Biden and the Democrats want them to.
Sorry people but this is the thinking in this part of the country. Seriously, some would rather get sick, maybe die, instead of getting vaccinated because it is all a plot by the Democrats and Biden.
Insanity.
Let's try this also
https://www.businessinsider.com/indias-true-covid-19-death-toll-2021-7
Mayor of New York has mandated that all hospital workers get vaccinated as less than 60% are not.
What , why not they should be vaccinated if only to set an exhale for others.
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My two cents is I have not read a single post here suggesting that the vaccine should be legally forced on people, nor have I read a post suggesting that it is a good idea to not take it. I could be wrong, but I don't recall a single one making either of those points.
So it seems to me that the two "sides" in this thread are probably not as far apart on this issue as the level of vitriol would suggest they are.
Why are Blacks and Hispanics so low compared to Whites in receiving the vaccine? It can
One of my Facebook friends who is a staunch conservative made a comment on the heated exchange between Fauci and Rand Paul. He said of Fauci
Quote from: Ed Vette on July 22, 2021, 08:59:08 AM
Why are Blacks and Hispanics so low compared to Whites in receiving the vaccine? It can
I heard in a meeting today, we are seeing more and more breakthrough cases where people who are vaccinated are getting sick and testing positive. Now again, it's still very rare for vaccinated people to end up in the hospital or dying, but this new Delta variant with its massive virus load and shedding among the unvaccinated seems to be overwhelming the defenses of the vaccinated in many cases.
I urge even the vaccinated to exercise caution especially around people who are unvaccinated or you are unsure if they are vaccinated or not.
I can tell you last night I was going to go to a gathering. An old acquaintance from the squad had passed away and there was going to be a gathering (a sort of pseudo wake) at his old home in town (his daughter lives there). I was actually driving to attend and turned around. I realized I would be in a crowded home, with people likely unmasked and who I didn't know if they were vaccinated or not. The only way I would feel safe is if I were wearing a KN95 mask, but I don't feel comfortable going to a social gathering and possibly being the only one or one of a limited number of people wearing full protection masks. I wanted to go, but I just couldn't justify the risk. Sadly, for the last few months I thought things were winding down, it appears (thanks mostly to the a-holes who refuse to get vaccinated and the Delta Variant) Covid will be with us for quite some time.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210722/5e887d7ad68faaaefea5df30e3e376ea.jpg)
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Biden says you can't get sick if you get vaccinated.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/fact-check-biden-cnn-town-hall-july/index.html
Quote from: jimmyz on July 23, 2021, 03:38:00 AM
Biden says you can't get sick if you get vaccinated.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/fact-check-biden-cnn-town-hall-july/index.html
Wow.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on July 23, 2021, 04:35:00 AM
Wow.
DB,
I am not sure how much "wow" there really is when you know the full truth. I have been accused of being "too honest" so maybe it's not fair to hold Jimmy to the same standard I hold myself. For me, I would never dream of leaving out important facts, especially if leaving them out has the potential to mislead you. I value the truth too much and I respect you guys to never deceive you.
The full story is that Joe Biden did make a mistake and say that you "couldn't get sick" if you are vaccinated, but the important information that was left out was that this was the third time he was talking about the vaccine at a town hall and he had correctly and in detail described what the vaccine could do for you. Look, I am not going to excuse President Biden, because he needs to be more careful. Both you don't want to risk adding more misinformation out there, and there are people with bad intentions who will jump on a gaff like that, to spread mistrust in our government.
QuoteCalling on Americans to get vaccinated against Covid-19, Biden said, "If you're vaccinated, you're not going to be hospitalized, you're not going to be in the ICU unit and you're not going to die." In another exchange moments later, Biden said that even if vaccinated people do "catch the virus," they are "not likely to get sick."
But then, during a third exchange, Biden said that since the vaccines "cover" the highly transmissible Delta variant of the virus: "You're not going to get Covid if you have these vaccinations."
I will even go as far as to say Joe should have been more careful and say "it's very unlikely that you will be hospitalized rather than the blanket "you won't get hospitalized". I get you are trying, for the good of the nation and humanity, to promote the vaccine but you never want to be anything less than 100% accurate no matter how noble the intention. We are battling a deadly virus and a group of deadly people who want nothing more than to see this virus continue by convincing people not to be vaccinated. So you need to be very very careful about what you say. There needs to be 100% trust because you are careful in what you say and how you say it.
Ed,
You might find this article interesting. It delves into the topic you brought up and the low vaccination rates in the African American and Latino communities. This study was done by a Rutgers professor and interviewed people in this area
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2781957
Having read the article I posted for Ed, I am struck that perhaps there was a missed opportunity. Over and over again I hear "the vaccine was rushed". It certainly didn't help that Donald Trump tried to take all the credit for the rapid development of the vaccine as his reputation for honesty is pretty much non-existent. I will say that the piles of money operation warp speed threw at the drug companies did help to speed things up. Only the star of the show was the messenger RNA technology, which is truly a medical marvel. The technology has been around for some time, but it languished because drug companies didn't see much profit in it and the need for special cold storage infrastructure was a significant obstacle.
I think if doctors and scientists had gone out to the public and really educated them on this amazing scientific/medical breakthrough (even before the Vaccines were completed) and how it was really responsible for the record speed that these vaccines were developed, I don't think we would have as much vaccination resistance as we have today. Far too often I am hearing "the vaccine was rushed. I don't trust it". Sadly I think if people truly understood or at least understood as best they are able, there would be many more people vaccinated. Unfortunately, I am not sure at this late date a campaign that people would find credible, can be developed.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 09:35:48 AM
It certainly didn't help that Donald Trump tried to take all the credit for the rapid development of the vaccine as his reputation for honesty is pretty much non-existent.
Rich: Do you really want to go there? I've been amassing a lot of ammunition over the past six months (without even trying). Bob
PS.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 09:35:48 AMFar too often I am hearing "the vaccine was rushed. I don't trust it".
Asked by CNN's Dana Bash whether she would get a vaccine that was approved and distributed before the election, Presidential candidate Kamala Harris replied, "Well, I think that's going to be an issue for all of us. I will say that I would not trust Donald Trump and it would have to be a credible source of information that talks about the efficacy and the reliability of whatever he's talking about... I will not take his word for it." As a man of science, I'd like to hear your scientific explanation of how such statements encouraged people in the African American and Latino communities to get vaccinated.
How is it going to encourage people to get vaccinated when now they are starting to tell vaccinated people that they must start wearing masks again. Talk about dividing the country even more!
Bill
Quote from: ps11yat14 on July 23, 2021, 10:30:24 AM
How is it going to encourage people to get vaccinated when now they are starting to tell vaccinated people that they must start wearing masks again. Talk about dividing the country even more!
Bill
Bill: Hypocrisy is a cold mistress, isn't it? LOL Bob
Quote from: ps11yat14 on July 23, 2021, 10:30:24 AM
How is it going to encourage people to get vaccinated when now they are starting to tell vaccinated people that they must start wearing masks again. Talk about dividing the country even more!
Bill
Whats the big deal about wearing a mask? How does that cause division?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on July 23, 2021, 11:01:52 AM
Whats the big deal about wearing a mask? How does that cause division?
Some people got their heads up their ass and don't want to wear a mask because they think they have the right not to. Others have taken this opportunity, with the full backing of left wing morality and the media's approval, to bash on those who wont wear a mask and accuse them of (in the words of this forum's most honest person who would never use hyperbole) "trying to kill their fellow Americans".
Seriously uconn, where have you been?
Too much disrespectful back and forth.
Quote from: ps11yat14 on July 23, 2021, 10:30:24 AM
How is it going to encourage people to get vaccinated when now they are starting to tell vaccinated people that they must start wearing masks again. Talk about dividing the country even more!
Bill
Bill,
Here is the thing, public health needs to follow the science and pay attention to what is happening in the country and in the communities. Covid infections are on the rise, Covid deaths and hospitalizations are on the rise, and breakthrough infections (where a person who is vaccinated gets infected with Covid) are on the rise. We are doing everything thing we can to get as many people vaccinated as possible (which is the ultimate solution to the problem). We have met stiff resistance which will be difficult to overcome and will take time.
So public health needs to look at other measures that can help level out or reverse the bad Covid trends that we are seeing. Masks are a proven and effective way to reduce the spread of the disease. Look, I get it, not having to wear a mask is a huge carrot to offer to the unvaccinated (although how big may be subject to debate as the unvacinated were often the first to remove their masks even when there was an honor system). Still, public health is tasked with saving lives and keeping people healthy. Telling people to mask up (like they are doing in Israel) may be the most effective way to do that, even if it hurts efforts to reach the unvaccinated.
Thankfully Jonas Salk and his teams Polio vaccine was not politicized back then.
Quote from: babywhales on July 23, 2021, 12:31:26 PM
Thankfully Jonas Salk and his teams Polio vaccine was not politicized back then.
Chris: I agree, but there is a difference. The polio vaccine is a CURE, while the various covid vaccines are not (they represent a "new frontier" in medicine; I pray each night we're not headed down a very dark path). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 12:41:28 PM
Chris: I agree, but there is a difference. The polio vaccine is a CURE, while the various covid vaccines are not (they represent a "new frontier" in medicine; I pray each night we're not headed down a very dark path). Bob
Bob,
That is incorrect, the polio vaccine is just that, a vaccine. There is no cure for polio, it can only be prevented What that vaccine was able to do was eliminate the disease from the western hemisphere. It's what happens when you achieve the ideal herd immunity. We could be doing something similar with Covid if we can get enough people vaccinated. Hopefully, there will be a point where we eradicate it off the planet.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 01:14:22 PM
Bob,
That is incorrect, the polio vaccine is just that, a vaccine. There is no cure for polio, it can only be prevented What that vaccine was able to do was eliminate the disease from the western hemisphere. It's what happens when you achieve the ideal herd immunity. We could be doing something similar with Covid if we can get enough people vaccinated. Hopefully, there will be a point where we eradicate it off the planet.
Rich: I stand corrected in my terminology, but the fact remains that the covid vaccines are a "horse of a different color" with which we have no prior experience.
The technology employed is very new and would have been virtually impossible without the types of computer power we currently possess.
I don't believe planetary eradication will ever happen (at least not without even more technological advancement. That "other" pandemic virus from 100 years ago is still hanging around somewhere today.
Bob
PS. By the way, somehow H1M1 generally disappeared without everyone getting vaccinated. I think it's a mistake to assume the only path to "defeating" covid involves vaccinating as many people as possible.
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 01:34:34 PM
Rich: I stand corrected in my terminology, but the fact remains that the covid vaccines are a "horse of a different color" with which we have no prior experience.
The technology employed is very new and would have been virtually impossible without the types of computer power we currently possess.
I don't believe planetary eradication will ever happen (at least not without even more technological advancement. That "other" pandemic virus from 100 years ago is still hanging around somewhere today.
Bob
PS. By the way, somehow H1M1 generally disappeared without everyone getting vaccinated. I think it's a mistake to assume the only path to "defeating" covid involves vaccinating as many people as possible.
Bob,
H1N1 lasted for a few flu seasons before other strains replaced it, as happens with pretty much all the flu strains
I know you think I just repeat political talking points, but as a man of science, I was not exaggerating just how impressive the messenger RNA technology truly is. It has some really great potential. That technology has been around for 10 years, drug companies even tried it out on a couple of diseases like rabies and the flu. The companies just didn't see the advantages the messenger RNA technology had over existing vaccines since time was not of the essence. However, when you have a deadly worldwide pandemic and free flow of money, the drug companies put this wonderful new technology into action with great results.
I actually wonder if there were people in the beginning that refused Pennicilin because it was a new drug.
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 23, 2021, 01:58:05 PM
Bob,
H1N1 lasted for a few flu seasons before other strains replaced it, as happens with pretty much all the flu strains
I know you think I just repeat political talking points, but as a man of science, I was not exaggerating just how impressive the messenger RNA technology truly is. It has some really great potential. That technology has been around for 10 years, drug companies even tried it out on a couple of diseases like rabies and the flu. The companies just didn't see the advantages the messenger RNA technology had over existing vaccines since time was not of the essence. However, when you have a deadly worldwide pandemic and free flow of money, the drug companies put this wonderful new technology into action with great results.
I actually wonder if there were people in the beginning that refused Pennicilin because it was a new drug.
Rich: I'm right there with you on the excitement and anticipation of all the good that could follow.
But, maybe because I'm a lot older, I'm also mindful of the possibility (likelihood?) that someone will put it to a less-than-desirable purpose.
I can think of a few. We're heading into relatively uncharted territory.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on July 23, 2021, 03:01:58 PM
Rich: I'm right there with you on the excitement and anticipation of all the good that could follow.
But, maybe because I'm a lot older, I'm also mindful of the possibility (likelihood?) that someone will put it to a less-than-desirable purpose.
I can think of a few. We're heading into relatively uncharted territory.
Bob
I am just hoping drug companies will do the right thing. It's been a long time since drug companies have come up with a cure for anything. They seem to like the "treat" model where they can sell you drugs for the rest of your life. It's also why the drug companies didn't eagerly embrace messenger RNA, there is little money to be made in vaccinations.