Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on October 02, 2023, 11:14:22 PMThis is not going to go well. Never has, never will. What's the over/under till it gets locked???  :-??

Quote from: MagicRat on October 02, 2023, 11:17:45 PMI think, whatever Jones was coming out, his race is run.
Whether he was never good enough or whether we've "David Carr-ed" him is immaterial now.
The guy's pocket radar and field awareness is shot.
Theoretically worse QBs than Jones haven't fallen apart like he has behind bad O lines.

Looks like we're heading for a top five pick so we need to look at a QB.
The bigger question is, do we trust this GM HC combo to continue/start-over the rebuild?

Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 11:21:41 PMJones is the easy culprit for the team failures but man Daboll and Schoen aren't far behind.

Quote from: T200 on October 02, 2023, 11:14:22 PMThis is not going to go well. Never has, never will. What's the over/under till it gets locked???  :-??

Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 11:16:25 PMI'm definitely ok drafting a QB. Even I defended Jones and still good with this. If we had the number 1 pick - send Jones packing.

Williams
Ewers
Maye
McCarthy

All good with them. DB, my problem is so we trust Schoen to make the right call.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 02, 2023, 11:24:13 PMI certainly have no intention of being disrespectful to anyone here, and I hope nobody else does. I'm hoping for a serious, thoughtful discussion about a very serious and concerning topic for all Giants fans. If it devolves into a petty fight that will be a shame, because I fully believe it's a discussion worth having at this point. I think it's a safe bet the GM is pondering this topic tonight. He is well aware of the QBs that are coming out this year.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 02, 2023, 11:21:06 PMEleven sacks. Wrap your head around that. He's not the worst problem.

That said, this season isn't going to bode well for Daboll, Schoen and Jones. If they have a top five pick, as it looks now, they draft a QB.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 02, 2023, 11:25:14 PMTotally reasonable concern JT. Although I think we can say that it's fair to be concerned about his ability to pick ANY position, not just QB. Fair?

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 02, 2023, 11:27:24 PMJones isn't the only problem but I'm not convinced he's the answer to any question.

If you're drafting in the top 5, and the QB class is loaded, you take a QB. He can compete with Jones in camp and if he beats him out, he starts. If he doesn't, he sits for the year.

You then cut Jones and spread the cap hit out.

That's the out in the two years that many of us alluded to in the spring.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 02, 2023, 11:28:36 PMI hate to say it but Daboll may not survive this season. The team right now looks badly coached. They could very well be 0-4 right now. It's a bad situation.

Quote from: AYM on October 02, 2023, 11:26:22 PMSince Daboll's 6-1 start, he's been something like 5-10-1 since. I think the jury's out and this is the real Daboll.

Quote from: AYM on October 02, 2023, 11:20:19 PMGiven 2 drafts so far, I do not.

If we end up in position to draft a QB, I want a new regime making that decision.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 02, 2023, 11:28:36 PMI hate to say it but Daboll may not survive this season. The team right now looks badly coached. They could very well be 0-4 right now. It's a bad situation.

Quote from: Topshelf21 on October 02, 2023, 11:37:15 PMI honestly can't believe we are talking about this AGAIN!?!?!?!?

It's like a nightmare that just keeps showing up every time you go to sleep.

The arc of improvement never seems to go up on a continuous basis for us...

We were given hope last year and this hurts even worse than another shitty season we could have had last year instead of thinking we were on the way back to competitive football again.

Quote from: T200 on October 02, 2023, 11:14:22 PMThis is not going to go well. Never has, never will. What's the over/under till it gets locked???  :-??

Quote from: killarich on October 02, 2023, 11:45:47 PMJones was bad no defending that ...that pick 6 killed any chance we had at that game ... no excuse for Jones ...he's paid the big bucks and is playing bad

But 11 sacks... and it's not 11 coverage sacks ...the o line play was criminal less than a second it seems like Jones was hit

Like I said Jones played terrible ... but I don't think any other qb can be great with that protection ...I mean we may get a few more wins but the team overall is still pretty bad right now

One thing Jones is ...he's tough ... another QB may have already been injured at this point

But if we are picking top 5 and a top tier qb is there ... then yea even I am willing to take a qb ... but the o line still needs to be fixed

Quote from: nicky1000 on October 02, 2023, 11:34:57 PMWe may get a QB but Mara will not pull
the plug on this GM/coach regime. Will NOT happen. That said, Kafka/Wink/Disaster Special Teams coach will move
on next year.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 03, 2023, 12:04:54 AMJones is showing total class in the presser and taking full ownership. He said his level of play was "unacceptable" and that he let the team down. When asked about the sacks, he just said "credit to their defense." He is totally facing the music like a man here.

I have absolutely nothing against this kid personally. Quite the contrary. He is a class act, a man of integrity, a great athlete, a nice guy, and an incredibly hard worker. None of that is lost on me, and that stuff matters a lot more than a game.

But I'm also a hardcore Giants fan, and I want the team to win, and I'm just not convinced he is worth all this money and the multi-year commitment. I feel like I've been patient with this player, and the patience just simply isn't paying off.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 06:35:14 AMIt's ok to think Jones should force the ball down the field more and take chances. Hell, Eli did it a lot during his career that led to many great plays and also bad ones too. It's five and take.

However we also have to concede that Darius Slayton is a very poor player at this point and Paris Campbell is a waste of a roster spot.

Those two are combing to making 9 million a year. Just another thing to add to the list of things troubling the Giants.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 02, 2023, 11:28:36 PMI hate to say it but Daboll may not survive this season. The team right now looks badly coached. They could very well be 0-4 right now. It's a bad situation.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 06:35:14 AMIt's ok to think Jones should force the ball down the field more and take chances. Hell, Eli did it a lot during his career that led to many great plays and also bad ones too. It's five and take.

However we also have to concede that Darius Slayton is a very poor player at this point and Paris Campbell is a waste of a roster spot.

Those two are combing to making 9 million a year. Just another thing to add to the list of things troubling the Giants.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 03, 2023, 06:56:53 AMI agree that Campbell has been a big disappointment versus what fans built him up in their minds to potentially be, although I'm not sure why anyone had high expectations about a free agent that was obtainable for a one year deal worth under $5mm a year. That's incredibly low for a WR. So this idea that he was going to "break out" on the Giants was more of a fan thing than anything backed up by the facts on the ground.

Slayton is an OK player. He's never been great, but he has some value. He's obviously not a high end receiver but he's not totally useless.

I get that the Giants don't have Stephon Diggs or Tyreek Hill on the team. But there are plenty of respectable aerial options on this team. Why aren't we looking to Waller more? I am not even talking about the end zone pick where he was open, but just in general? Even if there is a guy on him, Waller is 6'6", 250, fast, and can jump. Give him a chance to make a play. Hodgins is another one who can make catches in traffic.

When Eli had Burress, was Burress always wide open and did he always have 5-10 yards of separation when Eli went to him? No way. I remember those years well. It was constant back shoulder and jump ball and fade type stuff with him. Jones just doesn't seem to be able to make those kinds of throws. Which is a problem because they're kind of essential in the NFL. The idea that guys have to be completely wide open for him to be willing to throw the ball more than 5-7 yards makes for an impossible situation, as the NFL just isn't like that. Watch someone like Gabe Davis on the Bills. If he were on the Giants I guarantee you Giants fans would say he sucks. And he's not some great receiver, but Allen does use him. Do you think that guy gets 2015 OBJ type separation? Again I think people need to watch other teams if they're convinced Jones has uniquely bad receivers at "getting open." Our receivers aren't the problem.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 07:00:09 AMYou're talking about two receivers.  You still have the rookie Hyatt.  You still have Robinson who looked like their best player last night.  And you have Waller the guy you traded for to be that big target for Jones.

There's enough there to be productive with.

Quote from: NY47GIANTS on October 03, 2023, 12:04:29 AMHe stinks.

Today, he stunk.

For the last 5 years he has been stinking.

If you're still in the work force, can you imagine showing up to work everyday, and hearing how awful you and your coworkers are ALL THE TIME?!?

Except for Daniel.

No. In fact, YOU'RE the reason Daniel's metrics are so bad.

Is there a single person that wouldn't at least be a bit resentful?

Is there another player in league history with a red carpet of excuses longer than Daniel Jones?

Yet, if you watch these meaningless games, guys like Evan Neal, and Glowinski, and every other person maligned for our league worst Quarterback play are still BATTLING.

That's moxie.

I want guys like that on my team (maybe not starting in every scenario).

The desire to quit must be so strong in that locker room. Half the team already has.

Yet these guys get back up and take beating after beating knowing they'll get beaten again if they open the paper or read the news online.

I don't buy injuries either.

Every team deals with injuries. Pro bowlers are born through the next man up mentality.

This is why guys PLAY HURT.

No one in the right mind is playing hurt so they can end up being an excuse for Daniel Jones.

It's pathetic, really.

Are they tanking for Arch?

Something about the timing on the term of that TERRIBLE contract is piquing my interest.

Quote from: AYM on October 03, 2023, 12:05:33 AMIf we're in position to pick one of those guys, it means we likely only win 1-2 more games this year. That would represent not only an arrow pointing down, but would be worse than any season Reese or Gettleman had, meaning Schoen made a bad team even worse.


At that point you get a new everything. GM, coach, scouts, and QB. Start from scratch.

Quote from: True Blue on October 03, 2023, 12:15:11 AMI still think DJ is a solid QB, issue is, everything around him needs to go well for him to do well. Even then it's inconsistent

Last year we overachieved, against bad teams in a weaker NFC and a easy schedule. It was fools good and we were then overrated headed into the offseason. That is an error on Schoen and Dabs end

I still think that they are a great coach and GM, you don't win coach of the year flukefully, they made a mistake and I am sure they realize that and will do what needs to be done to correct it. There is a reason they designed an out on DJs contract. They had a plan B, and their hand was forced in any scenario there wasn't a good option for them better than Jones this year

I think DJs play is hurting the offense more than people think. Losing Barkley, AT and the bad OL hurt too. DJ is not the only issue here, OL still needs work. They need a #1 guy aside from Waller, Wandale, Hyatt and Hodgins are good 2s/3s, but they do need a top dog in that group, and they need a QB that will elevate them all and take the team to the next level. DJ won't succeed even if they find that guy, whereas a legit great QB would be able to win with this group.

Finding those guys are easier said than done, if they are in position they will need to make sure they get it right.

They need to be at least given a chance to pick their own QB and have 2 seasons with that QB playing before we talk losing jobs.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 07:07:29 AMHyatt plays very little to make an impact. Robinson I have conceded has looked good but is on a snap count.

Slayton and Campbell play the majority of the game. They aren't good. I do agree we need to throw to Walker more. But as a group - it's still one of the worst units in football.

I mean even you have to concede Campbell is useless.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 03, 2023, 07:13:38 AMi think its fair to talk about losing jobs at this point. none of schoens picks are doing anything.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 03, 2023, 07:22:39 AMFans can obviously talk about anything they want to. They can say the sky is green. But there is no chance Mara fires Schoen after 2023. You would need some sort of major scandal or perhaps Schoen walking out on the job, but Mara gave Gettleman four years. He's not firing Schoen after two. Especially when year one was arguably the best year this team has had in a decade. He's not getting fired after 2023. The odds are less than 1%. But obviously people are more than entitled to talk about it if they believe it's going to happen.

Could he and Daboll be on the hot seat in 2024? Yes, possibly, depending on how the rest of 2023 goes. But fired after two years given the year they had in 2022? No chance. Sorry.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 03, 2023, 07:08:44 AMThis is a terrible take IMO. could you imagine being the guy that has to take the hit for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE EMPLOYEES RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR SUCESS failing you EVERY step of the way? He's not a difference maker, but to sit here and say THEY resent jones when they are directly responsible for (most) of his shortcomings? thats a rough take man.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 07:33:30 AMIf your QB isn't the difference maker then you can't expect to ever have a consistent productive offense.  And that gives you your answer to the question about whether Jones is the guy you can win with.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 03, 2023, 07:42:18 AMthat part i agree with. but the sentiment that these other players resent jones for his shortcomings is insane. to say guys like lemiuex and glowinski have moxie because they take snaps? thats ridiculous. thats like saying hey at least my worst employees at least clock in every day. i for one dont want guys on my team that just show up to get paid. i want guys who are going to work hard even if the results arent always there. effort matters.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 07:44:32 AMWho said the players resent Jones?  If anything I've heard them all defend and be loyal to him throughout his career.  I don't buy it for a second that they resent him.

Quote from: Sav on October 03, 2023, 07:52:01 AMI don't know how anyone can be blaming Jones for this year. He is getting destroyed back there. Now, to answer your question. The Giants overachieved last year and people came into the year with some unrealistic expectations. This is a WR driven league. All the good teams have an elite WR:
Eagles have 2
Buff-Diggs
Miami has 2
Dallas has Lamb
Det has St Brown
KC has Kelce
SF has 3
And they have coaches who design plays to get the ball in their hands as much as possible.
The Giants don't have one player like that, and even if we did, the line is not giving the quarterback enough time to reach one. Many teams across the NFL have the same problem. Look at Cincinnati, the Jets have the same problem. It seems many teams across the NFL have a problem on the offensive line , it's not like the Giants havent addressed this problem through the draft in the last couple of years, they have, but the team is not deep enough to withstand the injuries. And they have too many holes everywhere to be addressing it again in the draft. � but with all the holes on the team, the Giants are not gonna take that next step without that elite play making receiver, people want to give up on Jones already, but I would argue that Marvin Harrison jr �would help this team more than any of the quarterbacks in the draft. You need that guy who is gonna give you leads by making a play to get 6, getting a 1st down to keep a drive going, a guy who is gonna scare the hell out of DCs. We do not have that guy. And I don't feel we are using guys correctly, anyone who is watched Hyatt play at Tennessee knows what he brings to the table as a deep threat. I think he's run one go route in four games and it was successful. Now I know Jones doesn't have the time to make those throws but You got a find a way at least once a quarter �

Quote from: Sav on October 03, 2023, 07:52:01 AMI don't know how anyone can be blaming Jones for this year. He is getting destroyed back there. Now, to answer your question. The Giants overachieved last year and people came into the year with some unrealistic expectations. This is a WR driven league. All the good teams have an elite WR:
Eagles have 2
Buff-Diggs
Miami has 2
Dallas has Lamb
Det has St Brown
KC has Kelce
SF has 3
And they have coaches who design plays to get the ball in their hands as much as possible.
The Giants don't have one player like that, and even if we did, the line is not giving the quarterback enough time to reach one. Many teams across the NFL have the same problem. Look at Cincinnati, the Jets have the same problem. It seems many teams across the NFL have a problem on the offensive line , it's not like the Giants havent addressed this problem through the draft in the last couple of years, they have, but the team is not deep enough to withstand the injuries. And they have too many holes everywhere to be addressing it again in the draft. � but with all the holes on the team, the Giants are not gonna take that next step without that elite play making receiver, people want to give up on Jones already, but I would argue that Marvin Harrison jr �would help this team more than any of the quarterbacks in the draft. You need that guy who is gonna give you leads by making a play to get 6, getting a 1st down to keep a drive going, a guy who is gonna scare the hell out of DCs. We do not have that guy. And I don't feel we are using guys correctly, anyone who is watched Hyatt play at Tennessee knows what he brings to the table as a deep threat. I think he's run one go route in four games and it was successful. Now I know Jones doesn't have the time to make those throws but You got a find a way at least once a quarter �

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 07:07:29 AMHyatt plays very little to make an impact. Robinson I have conceded has looked good but is on a snap count.

Slayton and Campbell play the majority of the game. They aren't good. I do agree we need to throw to Walker more. But as a group - it's still one of the worst units in football.

I mean even you have to concede Campbell is useless.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 07:56:51 AMMost of the sacks came after the pick 6 when the game was over.  In the first half the line play was good enough to make plays downfield.

If Jones is broken then it's time to move on.  There's no use in holding onto a broken QB while you're building out the rest of the roster.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 07:56:51 AMMost of the sacks came after the pick 6 when the game was over.  In the first half the line play was good enough to make plays downfield.

If Jones is broken then it's time to move on.  There's no use in holding onto a broken QB while you're building out the rest of the roster.

Quote from: zephirus on October 03, 2023, 08:28:08 AMThe reality of the situation is that Jones is our starter for this year AND next year.  The cap implications of getting rid of him until after the 2024 season would set this team back even further.  Wherever the Giants end up drafting, they should be picking offensive linemen early and often and give Jones 2024 as his prove it year.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 03, 2023, 07:25:28 AMim not saying it should happen YET. but i think its fair to start questioning whether we are going to win with JS/BD. schoens picks are doing nothing, and dabolls players are getting destroyed on a weekly basis. they are trending in the wrong direction is what i am trying to say.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 07:56:51 AMMost of the sacks came after the pick 6 when the game was over.  In the first half the line play was good enough to make plays downfield.

If Jones is broken then it's time to move on.  There's no use in holding onto a broken QB while you're building out the rest of the roster.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 08:36:22 AMYou wanna know the sad state of our team right now? Before last night - a lot of venom was on Thibs and his play. And right now, he is one of our better players. He has 3 of our 4 sacks. And came the closest to forcing a turnover.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 08:36:22 AMYou wanna know the sad state of our team right now? Before last night - a lot of venom was on Thibs and his play. And right now, he is one of our better players. He has 3 of our 4 sacks. And came the closest to forcing a turnover.

Quote from: zephirus on October 03, 2023, 08:28:08 AMThe reality of the situation is that Jones is our starter for this year AND next year.  The cap implications of getting rid of him until after the 2024 season would set this team back even further.  Wherever the Giants end up drafting, they should be picking offensive linemen early and often and give Jones 2024 as his prove it year.

Quote from: kingm56 on October 03, 2023, 08:57:59 AMI don't believe that's accurate at all.  The rookie salary cap ensures the pay will be the same, whether the Giants select a QB or RG...it doesn't matter.  Thus, the cap implications are the same; also, drafting a QB doesn't mean they'll cut DJ. Instead, it creates competition and allows the new QB to be incorporated slowly.  Next year the QB class is the deepest in recent history and the Giants would be wise to take advantage of the situation.  I certainly wouldn't advocate for drafting a 4th OL in 5 years and hoping a QB making his 70th+ start becomes something he's never been, at any level.  I just don't see how anyone could advocate for more of the same...

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 08:46:35 AMI'm still not happy with Thibs. Yay, he got two sacks against backups. Seattle got ELEVEN!!! Thibs should have had 5!!

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 03, 2023, 08:50:56 AMLast year this coaching staff did a great job of holding DJ's hand and building his confidence.

IMHO he was seeing ghosts before they arrived and he was nearing the end of his career as a starter as a result.

Then the winning got in the way of the building for the coaching staff and IMO they believed that they had a solid OL Coach (they don't), the ST Coach is good enough (he isn't), and DJ (particularly after the big contract) was cured. He's NOT!

By the 2nd half the ghosts returned, you could see the panic on Daboll's face and the fear in DJ's eyes. NOT the fear of getting hit (he's already proven he's a physically tough kid) but the fear of letting everyone down.

I hate to say this because I don't want it to be true, but I think we all need to adjust our expectations because last night was the beginning of the end of DJ's career as a starter for the NYG.

It may be the end for Daboll as well if he doesn't smarten up and get rid of Johnson and McGaughey.

That's my .02


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 03, 2023, 08:50:56 AMLast year this coaching staff did a great job of holding DJ's hand and building his confidence.

IMHO he was seeing ghosts before they arrived and he was nearing the end of his career as a starter as a result.

Then the winning got in the way of the building for the coaching staff and IMO they believed that they had a solid OL Coach (they don't), the ST Coach is good enough (he isn't), and DJ (particularly after the big contract) was cured. He's NOT!

By the 2nd half the ghosts returned, you could see the panic on Daboll's face and the fear in DJ's eyes. NOT the fear of getting hit (he's already proven he's a physically tough kid) but the fear of letting everyone down.

I hate to say this because I don't want it to be true, but I think we all need to adjust our expectations because last night was the beginning of the end of DJ's career as a starter for the NYG.

It may be the end for Daboll as well if he doesn't smarten up and get rid of Johnson and McGaughey.

That's my .02


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: zephirus on October 03, 2023, 08:28:08 AMThe reality of the situation is that Jones is our starter for this year AND next year.  The cap implications of getting rid of him until after the 2024 season would set this team back even further.  Wherever the Giants end up drafting, they should be picking offensive linemen early and often and give Jones 2024 as his prove it year.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 03, 2023, 08:36:46 AMthats a good way of putting it. he doesnt suck. he's broken. there is a difference. the giants should be ashamed of themselves for letting this ruin the last half of eli's career, and the entirety of jones career. its sickening.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 11:05:27 AMhttps://x.com/_willnyr_/status/1709056244567200167?s=20 (https://x.com/_willnyr_/status/1709056244567200167?s=20)

Jones does this far too often and teams know it.  This is why Daboll ripped into him.

Quote from: katkavage on October 03, 2023, 11:09:26 AMJones is a wonderlic wonder. But his football IQ is abysmal. He's a dumb QB.

Quote from: Giant Obsession on October 03, 2023, 11:46:39 AMAll you have to do is go on Youtube and pull up his game against Clemson and Wake Forest, two good teams in 2018.

Watch that and wonder how he ever got drafted so high.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 11:05:27 AMhttps://x.com/_willnyr_/status/1709056244567200167?s=20 (https://x.com/_willnyr_/status/1709056244567200167?s=20)

Jones does this far too often and teams know it.  This is why Daboll ripped into him.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 11:58:37 AMI saw Waller open on TV. I wonder if Campbell has some dirt on Jones and Kafka. Why the hell is he even in the game, let alone getting passes thrown his way.

I'd rather see jump balls thrown downfield to Hyatt. Just throw the damn ball.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 12:00:49 PMIf Jones didn't have a habit of always looking to his check down or the receiver running the underneath route I would agree on the Campbell point but it's not Campbell.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 11:52:03 AMHe got drafted so high because he was coached by David Cutcliffe who has a good reputation with QB's.  He was drafted 6th overall because of that and John Mara's desire to find the next Eli which he thought Jones was because of Cutcliffe and Jones's personality being similar to Eli.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 12:29:48 PMhttps://x.com/DDuggan21/status/1709240417823166679?s=20

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 12:30:26 PMI have no idea what he's looking at. This is what we mean when we say he locks onto A receiver and sees nothing else.



 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231003/cd4956f8543bac30181442ae0513f0a9.jpg)

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 12:35:13 PMNot every QB misses as many as Jones does on a weekly basis and doesn't make up for it with other throws.  Making up for it with runs only does so much for an offense.
.

Quote from: Trench on October 03, 2023, 12:38:03 PMI'd like to seeTaylor at QB (if nothing else to evaluate Jones)

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 12:38:21 PMCan you show us the stats on the missed receivers?

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 12:56:00 PMWhat would be the purpose? There are two egregious plays right here in this thread that speak way louder than any stat could.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 12:56:00 PMWhat would be the purpose? There are two egregious plays right here in this thread that speak way louder than any stat could.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 12:59:44 PMI am not absolving Jones cause you are right he missed guys yesterday. But this happens quite frequently in the NFL. I watched Herbert one game miss 4 wide open guys for TDs and he checked it down. It does happen. The problem with Jones is that it is magnified because our offense is so bad.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 12:59:55 PMEvery QB misses open receivers.  Without stats, it's hard to know if and how much of a problem it is

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 12:59:44 PMI am not absolving Jones cause you are right he missed guys yesterday. But this happens quite frequently in the NFL. I watched Herbert one game miss 4 wide open guys for TDs and he checked it down. It does happen. The problem with Jones is that it is magnified because our offense is so bad.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 12:59:55 PMEvery QB misses open receivers.  Without stats, it's hard to know if and how much of a problem it is

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 12:58:48 PMSomething that I was thinking about and I wonder if it has some validity to it...

Should Jones just concentrate on specific targets and basically force the ball to them? Lets be honest. Guys like Slayton, Campbell and Hodgins are nothing more than replaceable players. However Waller does have mismatch advantages, and Robinson has looked good when healthy. Instead of reading a defense and looking at the replaceable players - should his first read always be Waller or Robinson and if its not there -then go to the others?

The reason I'm saying this is Jones struggles with progressions at times, so that is taken away from him. And for as great as guys like Mahomes and Allen are - you know darn well theyre looking for Kelce and Diggs first then adjusting.

I just dont understand how a guy like Campbell is ever your first read. Now if there are 3 guys on a guy thats different, but maybe forcing it to your play makers will take less pressure off of him.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 01:04:34 PMHerbert is not the Giants QB. I couldn't care less what he does or doesn't do for his team. I bleed BLUE.

It's a problem for Jones and the Giants. I don't need to see numbers. I watch the games. Again, he had Waller WIDE OPEN for a TD and instead, threw a pick-6. 14-point swing. Statistics will tell you it was ONLY ONE play. Screw statistics. I know what I saw and the numbers are not going to minimize the impact. Not having it. That smoke needs to be blown up someone else's ass.

Quote from: True Blue on October 03, 2023, 01:06:39 PMEssentially, he is already doing this

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 12:58:48 PMSomething that I was thinking about and I wonder if it has some validity to it...

Should Jones just concentrate on specific targets and basically force the ball to them? Lets be honest. Guys like Slayton, Campbell and Hodgins are nothing more than replaceable players. However Waller does have mismatch advantages, and Robinson has looked good when healthy. Instead of reading a defense and looking at the replaceable players - should his first read always be Waller or Robinson and if its not there -then go to the others?

The reason I'm saying this is Jones struggles with progressions at times, so that is taken away from him. And for as great as guys like Mahomes and Allen are - you know darn well theyre looking for Kelce and Diggs first then adjusting.

I just dont understand how a guy like Campbell is ever your first read. Now if there are 3 guys on a guy thats different, but maybe forcing it to your play makers will take less pressure off of him.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 12:59:44 PMI am not absolving Jones cause you are right he missed guys yesterday. But this happens quite frequently in the NFL. I watched Herbert one game miss 4 wide open guys for TDs and he checked it down. It does happen. The problem with Jones is that it is magnified because our offense is so bad.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 01:07:18 PMThe Waller play is egregious. You wont get an argument from me on that one. That is basically reading coverage or even looking for your best player in the red zone.

However, while scrambling - he has to go through progressions much quicker, so yes WRs tend to not be seen. He missed Robinson because he was probably looking for something shorter (maybe a crosser). It doesnt absolve him, believe me. I am just trying to give some perspective on why he did.

The Waller play? All Jones fault and inexcusable.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 01:04:34 PMHerbert is not the Giants QB. I couldn't care less what he does or doesn't do for his team. I bleed BLUE.

It's a problem for Jones and the Giants. I don't need to see numbers. I watch the games. Again, he had Waller WIDE OPEN for a TD and instead, threw a pick-6. 14-point swing. Statistics will tell you it was ONLY ONE play. Screw statistics. I know what I saw and the numbers are not going to minimize the impact. Not having it. That smoke needs to be blown up someone else's ass.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 01:04:34 PMHerbert is not the Giants QB. I couldn't care less what he does or doesn't do for his team. I bleed BLUE.

It's a problem for Jones and the Giants. I don't need to see numbers. I watch the games. Again, he had Waller WIDE OPEN for a TD and instead, threw a pick-6. 14-point swing. Statistics will tell you it was ONLY ONE play. Screw statistics. I know what I saw and the numbers are not going to minimize the impact. Not having it. That smoke needs to be blown up someone else's ass.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 01:07:18 PMThe Waller play is egregious. You wont get an argument from me on that one. That is basically reading coverage or even looking for your best player in the red zone.

However, while scrambling - he has to go through progressions much quicker, so yes WRs tend to not be seen. He missed Robinson because he was probably looking for something shorter (maybe a crosser). It doesnt absolve him, believe me. I am just trying to give some perspective on why he did.

The Waller play? All Jones fault and inexcusable.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 01:11:46 PMYou are certainly entitled to your approach.  I prefer one that is more measured.  I think Jones had a very bad game.  Still, this team is terrible which requires Jones to be perfect. Every mistake is magnified on this team.  So that's why I prefer to see some numbers that would allow for a fact-based evaluation.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 12:17:12 PMIn the Game thread there were questions as to whether receivers were open downfield and to point out which plays where they were.  Well here is one in addition to the pick 6.

https://twitter.com/nickfalato/status/1709237407844094408?s=61 (https://twitter.com/nickfalato/status/1709237407844094408?s=61)

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 01:13:58 PMAnd the team is also required to be perfect for Jones to be productive by propping him up.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 01:13:58 PMAnd the team is also required to be perfect for Jones to be productive by propping him up.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 01:11:46 PMYou are certainly entitled to your approach.  I prefer one that is more measured.  I think Jones had a very bad game.  Still, this team is terrible which requires Jones to be perfect. Every mistake is magnified on this team.  So that's why I prefer to see some numbers that would allow for a fact-based evaluation.

Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 11:16:25 PMI'm definitely ok drafting a QB. Even I defended Jones and still good with this. If we had the number 1 pick - send Jones packing.

Williams
Ewers
Maye
McCarthy

All good with them. DB, my problem is so we trust Schoen to make the right call.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 01:15:55 PMThe team was far from perfect in the second half of the AZ game, but it didn't stop DJ from a historic comeback.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 01:16:03 PMWe can argue that Jones needs to be perfect in order for us to win too. It works both ways. The defense and running game havent stepped up either.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 01:13:58 PMAnd the team is also required to be perfect for Jones to be productive by propping him up.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 01:15:55 PMThe team was far from perfect in the second half of the AZ game, but it didn't stop DJ from a historic comeback.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 01:20:09 PMThe line play was great the receivers made plays in that second half.  It was about as perfect as you can play.  And that's what Jones requires everything around him to be going great that doesn't require him to improvise or have to think too much.

The defense allowed 10 points that weren't a result of a turnover.  Seattle's defensive strength is their run defense.  Their weakness is their pass defense.  It was the Giants passing offense that lost the game.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 01:14:54 PMRambo,

you are making my point for me. You're telling me he's locked into one guy and forcing it to them. Why is he locking into a guy like Campbell or Slayton who neither are very good. Wouldnt you rather him forcing it to them? Or guys like Robinson or Waller who can actually exploit the defense?

Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 03, 2023, 01:26:02 PMi think they just have to be average. or something close to it.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 01:27:44 PM18 carries for 39 yards. Thats our RBs total. We didnt play the 85 Bears. Its pathetic in every sense of the word. And the blame cannot be put on Jones there.

And their secondary improved dramatically by adding a pro bowl corner - did it not? Getting Woolen back made a major difference.

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 03, 2023, 01:28:21 PMOrlovsky was just on McAfee's show saying of the 11 sacks he put 4 on the OL and 6 on the QB, either not getting the protection right or scrambling into the sack when he didn't need to. 

(the last one being that lateral play to campbell that is considered a sack for some reason)

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 03, 2023, 01:28:21 PMOrlovsky was just on McAfee's show saying of the 11 sacks he put 4 on the OL and 6 on the QB, either not getting the protection right or scrambling into the sack when he didn't need to. 

(the last one being that lateral play to campbell that is considered a sack for some reason)

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 01:14:54 PMRambo,

you are making my point for me. You're telling me he's locked into one guy and forcing it to them. Why is he locking into a guy like Campbell or Slayton who neither are very good. Wouldnt you rather him forcing it to them? Or guys like Robinson or Waller who can actually exploit the defense?

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 02:54:15 PMI am not sure I agree with that. I believe he is being told to read the defense and take what is given to him.

And this is a subject nobody is right or wrong about. However, he needs to be told to focus on players that can actually be made. Paris Cambell should never be an option unless he is the last option.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 02:57:46 PMThen either doesn't know how to read defenses or he's just a check-down maverick.

The defense gave him open receivers. He rejected and offered up his own gift.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 02:54:15 PMI am not sure I agree with that. I believe he is being told to read the defense and take what is given to him.

And this is a subject nobody is right or wrong about. However, he needs to be told to focus on players that can actually be made. Paris Cambell should never be an option unless he is the last option.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 02:57:46 PMThen either doesn't know how to read defenses or he's just a check-down maverick.

The defense gave him open receivers. He rejected and offered up his own gift.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 03:06:26 PMCampbell is running the underneath routes which Jones has a habit of going to rather than downfield.  What Jones needs to do is anticipate and break that habit of going to the underneath route.

This was one of the criticisms of him coming out of college playing in a half field first read system that he wasn't one to anticipate plays but rather he would go to his easy read.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 02:54:15 PMI am not sure I agree with that. I believe he is being told to read the defense and take what is given to him.

And this is a subject nobody is right or wrong about. However, he needs to be told to focus on players that can actually be made. Paris Cambell should never be an option unless he is the last option.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:06:45 PMIf the coaching staff is telling him to get the ball quick to prevent sacks and turnovers - we need a new coachin staff then. We dont know what goes on in meetings and what is said. So to play the blame game on Jones, Kafka, or Daboll is unfair when it comes to this.

And I am not going to rehash missed WRs. He has missed some this year. So has Mahomes. So has Allen. So has Ridder. Its much more common than people think. The problem is our offense and defense is so bad - every single mistake is magnified. So Jones missing Waller (still an inexcusable play) and missing Robinson mean just so much more.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:07:41 PMOr a better yet - dont let Campbell run the routes. Or even a much better idea - dont play him. That eliminates the problem right off the bat.

Campbell is a very, very poor player. Why he is on the field makes very little sense.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:14:10 PMI've already said the Waller play was a horrible read, decision, and throw and there was no excusing it.

The Robinson play was missed. But I am not going to sit here and try to break down what Jones's is thinking like others are. Its a very complicated position and they are not robots. Its unfortunate he missed these plays and it did cost us at the end.

But there were many others plays but many others that contributed to the loss as well.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:06:45 PMIf the coaching staff is telling him to get the ball quick to prevent sacks and turnovers - we need a new coachin staff then. We dont know what goes on in meetings and what is said. So to play the blame game on Jones, Kafka, or Daboll is unfair when it comes to this.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 03:15:29 PMThese aren't one offs these are just part of a pattern with Daniel Jones and have been through out his entire professional career.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:14:10 PMI've already said the Waller play was a horrible read, decision, and throw and there was no excusing it.

The Robinson play was missed. But I am not going to sit here and try to break down what Jones's is thinking like others are. Its a very complicated position and they are not robots. Its unfortunate he missed these plays and it did cost us at the end.

But there were many others plays but many others that contributed to the loss as well.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:07:41 PMOr a better yet - dont let Campbell run the routes. Or even a much better idea - dont play him. That eliminates the problem right off the bat.

Campbell is a very, very poor player. Why he is on the field makes very little sense.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:19:46 PMAnd so is having bad WRs and OLs as well. If you want to replace Jones - thats fine. I am not trying to change your opinion on him. You have more than enough evidence and material to stake your opinion.

But it is my opinion that there are so many issues with this team, that people claim as "excuses" are not excuses. We havent had a good OL since 2010. We had maybe 1-2 above average defenses duuring the last decade. Our coaching has been some of the worst in the league, which definitely includes this year. We have had bad STs for a long time as well.

All these things matter as well. Thats my point. We can exchnage Jones for Mahomes - and I would not feel comfortable this is a playoff team. Would we have better QB play? No doubt. But would Mahomes be one of the great QBs ever? Not in my opinion.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 03:18:53 PMWelllll... if they're telling him to get the ball out quick to prevent sacks and turnovers... he didn't do that on the pick-6. Annnnnddddd... that same pass should have been to Waller, NOT resulting in a pick-6. I know you acknowledged that particular play was 100% on Jones.

One last 'aaaaannnnnddd'... did you see Daboll throw the tablet after showing Jones what he missed??? Yeah, he wasn't coached to do that.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 03:21:38 PMDo you know how many snaps Campbell got last night? 23 (31%).  Do you know where that ranked among the Giants WR's?  5th.  Slayton (88%), Robinson (64%), Hyatt (60%) and Hodgins (37%) all had more snaps than Campbell.  The only receiver who had fewer snaps that Campbell was Shepard.

So this idea that Campbell is getting all of these snaps and heavily involved in the offense is simply not true.

If the Giants had Justin Herbert last night they win that game.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:25:11 PMCampbell played 23 snaps and had 5 targets. Thats my point. Like I said, its not right. Slayton is useless and plays more than anyone else? Thats my point. Dont play them. They are unproductive.

And I am not going to address the Herbert comment. Its nothing but heresay.

Quote from: JT39 on October 03, 2023, 03:19:46 PMAnd so is having bad WRs and OLs as well. If you want to replace Jones - thats fine. I am not trying to change your opinion on him. You have more than enough evidence and material to stake your opinion.

But it is my opinion that there are so many issues with this team, that people claim as "excuses" are not excuses. We havent had a good OL since 2010. We had maybe 1-2 above average defenses duuring the last decade. Our coaching has been some of the worst in the league, which definitely includes this year. We have had bad STs for a long time as well.

All these things matter as well. Thats my point. We can exchnage Jones for Mahomes - and I would not feel comfortable this is a playoff team. Would we have better QB play? No doubt. But would Mahomes be one of the great QBs ever? Not in my opinion.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 03:30:11 PMYou addressed a few different things in your post.

When people say "excuses for Jones" it's not to ignore the fact that there are a myriad of issues with this team. Just about every person on this site readily acknowledges that. The "excuses" part comes in only when discussing Jones.

- His supporting cast isn't NFL-caliber
- He doesn't have time to throw
- He doesn't have a #1 receiver
- His receivers don't get open
- He's running for his life

But here's the thing: he has had games where all of those listed above were true and present and yet he still played well in spite of those hindrances. The problem is he only has a handful of those games where he overcomes the limitations.

Jones has physical talent. He can buy time with his legs. One of the big differences between Jones and Mahomes is that Mahomes uses his legs to buy time to find an open receiver, usually way down field. Jones buys time to find a short outlet. We wouldn't be a playoff team with Mahomes in this situation, but we also wouldn't have a question mark at the QB position.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 01:26:30 PMTwo out of 16 quarters. Two.

Where was he last night? Where was Dab/Ka with the playcalling? Where was the max protect? Where were the downfield shots?

Yes, I know about the offensive line injuries. Seattle had more offensive starters out than we did.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 03:53:21 PMWe have 3 games of historically bad blocking.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 03:53:21 PMWe have 3 games of historically bad blocking.

Quote from: T200 on October 03, 2023, 03:20:52 PMNone of us knows what his thinking is like. However, there is enough film of him to understand and see his tendencies. He has become predictable.

Quote from: Trench on October 04, 2023, 03:09:01 AMAs was stated some of those sacks were on Jones

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 04, 2023, 01:08:42 AMQB won't matter if the can't protect. 11 sacks, pressured most by nearly double then next qb, less time to throw, and worst rated oline and wr groups.

Show me any qb that can be successful with that garbage & no support in the play calling.

But sure, get another qb to ruin, as they did for Eli for nearly 6 years and now DJ another 5. Kudos on fixing that line after 10 years, job well done.

There will always be some fans complaining about a qb no matter what. I lived and survived bad qbs like Kannel, Brown and Graham. I gave them a little time to grow/learn/improve. Once I saw they were the problem I wanted them out.

Didn't see it with Eli, when many fans wanted him gone & same with DJ. We go as far as the oline takes us.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 06:47:35 AMHate to say it Jones is only a small step above Brown, Kent and Kannel.  He's not as good as Kerry Collins.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 04, 2023, 10:38:56 AMThey actually had teams around them. & while I was a fan and liked KC after those three previous to him. He laid the biggest egg in the SB!

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 10:45:57 AMI liked Collins. We needed a QB badly and I wasn't sure about him when they signed him, but overall he did a very solid job for us at a time when we really needed someone to step up at the position.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 10:40:42 AMHe at least got to a Super Bowl and could read a defense with no fear of going downfield instead of always looking for his check down or underneath route.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 04, 2023, 07:52:00 PMThanks for sharing that. Exactly what I thought!

By the way, how long was KC in the league and how good of a team did he have, compared to this one. By the way, I was happy when they got him to the Giants. Unfortunately the SB was devastating but he was a very good Giant.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 07:58:58 PMHe could read a defense and knew how to audible and adjust his line pre snap.  Something Jones has yet to comprehend in Year 5.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 10:45:57 AMI liked Collins. We needed a QB badly and I wasn't sure about him when they signed him, but overall he did a very solid job for us at a time when we really needed someone to step up at the position.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 05, 2023, 07:33:37 AMAfter Brown, Maddox and Kanell, it was breathtaking to see a QB who could hit a Receiver in stride.

Quote from: JT39 on October 05, 2023, 09:20:44 AMNobody misses Jesse Palmer? He was so dreamy on the bachelor.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 07:58:58 PMHe could read a defense and knew how to audible and adjust his line pre snap.  Something Jones has yet to comprehend in Year 5.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 09:53:43 AMI think this touches on what is so perplexing about Jones:  By all accounts he is very intelligent.   But for some reason he seems to have mental blocks on some football basics. 

You see the physical ability at times and you know the guy is smart, but it seems like there are mental aspects of the game the elude him.  Is he permanently rattled? 

If he is, not much anyone can do. 

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 10:12:42 AMIt's not perplexing as there are some players who are book smart while others who are instinctively smart who have that awareness and ability to think on the fly.  IMO Jones is the former not the latter.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 10:38:57 AMI find it perplexing because we see it sometimes but not others. 

It seems the people around him thought his football smarts were good enough to sign him to the current contract.  I dont think they were looking at his Duke transcripts for that.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 05, 2023, 10:45:34 AMThat's a fair point, but I think they made a calculated decision when they signed Jones. What were their other options at the time? They weren't picking in the top 20, and it was a very weak QB draft, so drafting a QB this year was not a realistic option. They could have let Jones go and signed someone like Carr or Jimmy G, but I can see why they would have preferred Jones to either of those options. They could have tagged Jones, but that likely would have meant losing Barkley and not being as good this year. Tough to do that when you just had your first winning season and playoff win in ages. The contract they did give Jones was unlike other recent big second QB contracts in the careful way it was structured (ie the huge year two hit).

I'm not saying they signed Jones while not liking him. Obviously they were able to make the playoffs and win a playoff game with him last year, which was a big improvement over previous years. I think they viewed it as the best option they had at the time, but were not so convinced on him as to really go all-in the way the other teams have done with big 2nd QB contract. The transaction was more careful and calculated than that.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 10:38:57 AMI find it perplexing because we see it sometimes but not others. 

It seems the people around him thought his football smarts were good enough to sign him to the current contract.  I dont think they were looking at his Duke transcripts for that.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 11:44:14 AMThey were backed into a corner after last season.  They were coming off a season where he was decent and they won 9 games plus a playoff game.  They didn't have a high enough draft pick to draft a QB and their other options to replace Jones with were limited.  Outside of tagging him and letting him play out 2023 they made the safe decision of signing him to an extension that gives them an out after 2 seasons.

Quote from: StompYouOT on October 04, 2023, 06:26:43 PMDon't laugh at me, but I thought Baker or even Rodgers could have been brought in to do something similar this year.  I still somewhat feel that way, nvmd the Achilles, but this team does have myriad issues. I just think QB is the most glaring.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 09:53:43 AMI think this touches on what is so perplexing about Jones:  By all accounts he is very intelligent.   But for some reason he seems to have mental blocks on some football basics. 

You see the physical ability at times and you know the guy is smart, but it seems like there are mental aspects of the game the elude him.  Is he permanently rattled? 

If he is, not much anyone can do. 

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 05, 2023, 12:20:27 PMWhich I imagine they decided because it was the only way to keep Barkley too.  Which they only wanted to do because they felt that they could build off of last season and possibly contend this year, one year ahead of schedule.  But clearly that was a miscalculation.  In retrospect probably best to have just let them both walk, suffered through a miserable season (we're doing that anyway) and put yourself in position to draft caleb williams while using the Jones money to fortify the rest of the roster that's clearly not good enough.

Quote from: nb587 on October 05, 2023, 01:06:50 PMThe move to make, in my opinion, should have been made by Gettleman by drafting Herbert and trading Jones coming off a decent rookie year when he may have had value.  To me, a QB like Herbert would have set the franchise up for years.

Quote from: nb587 on October 05, 2023, 01:06:50 PMYour comments following the words in retrospect are the very definition of Monday morning QB.  How do you think fans here and elsewhere would have reacted if the Giants basically started from scratch after winning a playoff game.  Putting us in a position to draft Caleb Williams means something like winning 1-2 games, maybe none the way the Bears are playing.  With PSLs and very expensive ticket prices and parking, etc plus a meddling owner, coming off the first successful season in a long time, how do you tear it down.  Winning made Schoen's job, oddly enough, much harder.

The move to make, in my opinion, should have been made by Gettleman by drafting Herbert and trading Jones coming off a decent rookie year when he may have had value.  To me, a QB like Herbert would have set the franchise up for years.

Quote from: 4 Aces on October 05, 2023, 03:09:40 PMFrom my seat, he's been David Carr'd.

He's taken so many savage beatings. There are games from his rookie year still on youtube. Totally different QB. You almost don't recognize him. Quicker, lighter on his feet and much more aggressive.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 10:38:57 AMI find it perplexing because we see it sometimes but not others. 

It seems the people around him thought his football smarts were good enough to sign him to the current contract.  I dont think they were looking at his Duke transcripts for that.

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 05, 2023, 01:15:18 PMSeems you missed the "in retrospect" portion of what I wrote.  Obviously this is hindsight...that's exactly the point.  In the moment, sure they can easily be sucked into believing they're the best GM/Coach combo in the history of football and sure they can turn this ship around in one season.  But as it turns out the original plan of 2024 was probably a little more prudent given the results that we've seen.

It would have been a tough pill to swallow after a playoff win to let Jones and Barkley walk.  There are a large number of fans who'd have lost their collective minds over doing something like that.  What I'm saying is, they should have done it anyway.  Because it would have been the best move for the future of the team even if it wasn't the best move for the 2023 Giants chances of success.  Although after what we've seen maybe it would have been that too.

You say the move was to draft Herbert...which is a bit of monday morning QB in it of itself, no?  But also something I agree with and stated at the time.  Although I was advocating they not draft Jones at all and just simply wait a year when Herbert/Tua would both be coming out and that was before Joe Burrow burst on the scene.  Jones' year was an awful year for QB.  So naturally the smartest guy in the room, David football Gettleman, decided that was the time to take one. 

Having said that, once you draft Jones you can't trade him the very next season unless he starts showing up to work without pants on or something.  Certainly not based on play or the fact that significantly better QBs are available the following season.  You'd look like the dope we all know Gettleman to be for not waiting and well know he'd never stand for that.

Quote from: nb587 on October 05, 2023, 05:44:41 PMI know you weren't suggesting that they burn it down.  I think Schoen couldnt do it even if he believed it was the right thing to do.  The team was a victim of its success last year and success limited his moves this year.

I also keep coming back to drafting Jones at 6 convinced that somebody suckered Gettleman into drafting Jones too early.  That said, I believe that there are competent GMs who would have acknowledged the mistake with Jones prevented them from getting Herbert.  It would have required lots of courage but for me it was the move even if Jones steps up his game.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 05, 2023, 07:34:33 PMAt this point if a team has an injury would you be ok with trading Jones for a 4th just to get him off the books? It'd cost us 11 million the next few years but I would be fine with it. I think the Problem would be finding the team that would take him.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 05, 2023, 07:34:33 PMAt this point if a team has an injury would you be ok with trading Jones for a 4th just to get him off the books? It'd cost us 11 million the next few years but I would be fine with it. I think the Problem would be finding the team that would take him.

Quote from: madbadger on October 05, 2023, 07:43:00 PMYes. I'd even throw in our 3rd round pick to make it happen. I'd use the cap space to fix the line and use our first round pick in Jones replacements.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 05, 2023, 07:49:35 PMI would, yes. After more than four years of watching him, I am just not of the view that he's ever going to be a top flight starter in this league. I think he's capable of being a better player than what we have seen for most of this season, but I don't view him as a top 8-10 QB. I am very much of the view that if you don't have a top 8-10 QB, you need to keep looking for one, and you should not pay a non top 10 QB big time money.

With that said, as you and others have suggested, I think it's unrealistic to think anyone is going to take him off our hands under the current terms. I think the Giants are more likely going to have to eat this $47mm hit next year. The rest of the league just doesn't value him the way the Giants have, and we are now holding the bag.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 05, 2023, 08:31:03 PMI think they'd wait until after next season and use him as the backup going into next season so when they do cut him post June 1st we are on better footing unless someone comes and gets him.

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 02, 2023, 11:21:06 PMEleven sacks. Wrap your head around that. He's not the worst problem.

That said, this season isn't going to bode well for Daboll, Schoen and Jones. If they have a top five pick, as it looks now, they draft a QB.

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on October 05, 2023, 09:40:31 PMMost of the sacks were on Jones. He can't make any reads right now. He often is scrambling before there is pressure, creating pressure where there is none. This team has a QB problem. That must be fixed before anything else can truly be fixed long term. They should do whatever it takes to trade up in next year's draft to take an elite QB talent. The time for excuses is over.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 05, 2023, 08:29:14 PMAh kind of like the Brock Osweiler trade.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 09:30:49 AMI think this should be noted as well when it comes to our offense including QBs and OL.

Our RBs this year have 60 carries for 190 yards. As you can see there are a lot more problems this year than just the QB. Whats teh common them for a poor passing game and a poor running game?

A very poor OL.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 09:30:49 AMI think this should be noted as well when it comes to our offense including QBs and OL.

Our RBs this year have 60 carries for 190 yards. As you can see there are a lot more problems this year than just the QB. Whats teh common them for a poor passing game and a poor running game?

A very poor OL.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 06, 2023, 09:43:44 AMNobody is saying the OLine isn't a problem. Nobody is saying that it's even remotely good.

People are merely pointing out that Jones isn't even playing average.

It's been pointed out, with video evidence, that Jones was responsible for a number of sacks on Monday night. In fact, according to Dan O the oline was responsible for 4, Campbell 1 and the rest were on Jones.

The Giants, and Jones, have played well for 2 quarters this season. Two.

If people don't think Jones is a massive part of this collective failure (not withstanding his salary taking money away replenishing at other positions), I don't know what to say.

All summer long we had cartwheels on this board about "locking up our Franchise QB". Sadly, for all of us, the shine has really come off that and it's clear Jones cannot play with what's provided to him. The Giants obviously thought the same, hence the painful but palatable exit at the end of next season. So they also thought that they had not locked up their franchise QB.

But make no mistake, I doubt anyone on this board is happy with how this has played out but that doesn't stop it being the reality that we face right now.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 09:57:24 AMQBs arent robots. Some of those sacks I disagree with. Not recognizing a blitz, not throwing a ball away losing a yard - sure, you can definitely pinpoint that on Jones.

Jones is in a no win situation with a lot of people and "experts". If he gets rid of the ball quickly, he isnt taking chances down field and not going through his reads. If he holds onto the ball, and then gets sacked - he gets blame for holding onto the ball and not making quicker decisions.

This is what I know for sure. If he is getting sacked 6+ times a games (it may have been more last week) in 2 seconds or under. I am not blaming the QB. If an edge or DE hits our QB unblocked - thats not on the QB.

What I find amusing from these "experts" is they fail how many sacks Jones got out of from poor blocking a sif it doesnt matter. I bet he avoided another 6-10 more Seattle where some other QBs would have been sack. But do they give him credit for that? Nah...

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 09:57:24 AMQBs arent robots. Some of those sacks I disagree with. Not recognizing a blitz, not throwing a ball away losing a yard - sure, you can definitely pinpoint that on Jones.

Jones is in a no win situation with a lot of people and "experts". If he gets rid of the ball quickly, he isnt taking chances down field and not going through his reads. If he holds onto the ball, and then gets sacked - he gets blame for holding onto the ball and not making quicker decisions.

This is what I know for sure. If he is getting sacked 6+ times a games (it may have been more last week) in 2 seconds or under. I am not blaming the QB. If an edge or DE hits our QB unblocked - thats not on the QB.

What I find amusing from these "experts" is they fail how many sacks Jones got out of from poor blocking a sif it doesnt matter. I bet he avoided another 6-10 more Seattle where some other QBs would have been sack. But do they give him credit for that? Nah...

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 10:08:33 AMIf you're a franchise QB in season 5 who was just handed a large contract extension the expectations are going to be higher than they are for a rookie or second year QB still learning how to play the position at this level.  Fair or unfair Jones being in his fifth year with his contract means his play is going to get criticized more just as it is for any player in his position who has the professional career he's had to this point.

As far as getting rid of the ball quickly meaning that he can't go downfield I point to this play a few years ago that was getting rid of the ball quickly and anticipating the play while going deep all at the same time.  Something most elite veteran QB's do on a regular basis.  https://twitter.com/bobbyskinner_/status/1204229461312516096?s=61 (https://twitter.com/bobbyskinner_/status/1204229461312516096?s=61)

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 06, 2023, 10:02:51 AMIf there is a completely unaccounted for blitzer/DE it's almost always the QBs fault. Most starting QBs in the NFL are capable of either shifting the blocking to the overload side, or be aware that there is an unblocked man and adjust his decision making on that play accordingly.  If you see Jones dropping back to pass completely unaware of an untouched blitzer...that's his fault.  If the blitzers are all accounted for but Evan Neal completely whiffs on his block as he is want to do...that's on the OL.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 10:30:23 AMAgain, I disagree. Look at the naked bootleg against SF where NO ONE blocks the reigning defensive player in the league. Whether Bellinger was suppose to or not is irrelevant. Its very poor play design and a TE not doing his job. Jones was sacked before he could even carry out the bootleg.

Look at the fumble Jones had. I do agree - he is responsible for the fumble, but look at the first part of the play. An unblocked DE comes clean because Shane Lemieux is like 10 minutes late pulling to try to block him. Jones is hit immediately. How can you blame Jones for these plays?

The corner blitz you can blame Jones 100%. But when you get hit and sacked within 2 seconds - you have to realize the problem isnt the QB. When your RBs average 3.0 YPC - you cannot blame the QB all the time.

People here are clamoring for more shots down the field. Its physically cannot happen. The WRs cannot run routes 35-40 yards down field if the QB is sacked within 2 seconds. You cannot throw a WR open if they arent looking or finished with their route.

And yes - you can point to a few plays where they are missed. 2 out of 30-35-40 times is very little. And plus if you dont think QBs are affected when they are hit and knocked down consistently - then we need to be a little more open minded.

And this isnt one game with Jones. He stunk against Seattle - we all saw it. But if you watch every QB in the league. When they get time and can set their feet - plays are made. When they are hurried, pressure, and forced to move the pocket 85-90% of the plays - they will struggle. It is pretty simple.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 06, 2023, 10:42:09 AMI am still wondering what was supposed to happen on that play.  Bellinger certainly took a stance like he was going to try and block Bosa from getting to the outside.  Jones looked like he was taking a 7 step drop. 

Someone didn't execute properly there. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think Jones is the only problem, but I think he is part of the problem. That CB blitz is a glaring example.  The hot read was wide open from the side of the blitz and Jones never saw it coming.  So if getting hit fast is going to rattle him or any QB and cause them to not play their best, he is compounding his own issue by not reading a defense well. 

I agree that having Lemieux pull to block a DE and not come close to getting there is a play calling issue.  The same thing happened to Bredeson.  Its a tough block and the coaches need to understand their personnel's limitations. 

There is too many misses by Jones to not consider him a big part of the issue right now.  If he is responsible for making the blocking adjustments at the line, then he is really deficient in that regard.  If it's someone else's responsibility, I would wonder why. 

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 10:30:23 AMAgain, I disagree. Look at the naked bootleg against SF where NO ONE blocks the reigning defensive player in the league. Whether Bellinger was suppose to or not is irrelevant. Its very poor play design and a TE not doing his job. Jones was sacked before he could even carry out the bootleg.

Look at the fumble Jones had. I do agree - he is responsible for the fumble, but look at the first part of the play. An unblocked DE comes clean because Shane Lemieux is like 10 minutes late pulling to try to block him. Jones is hit immediately. How can you blame Jones for these plays?

The corner blitz you can blame Jones 100%. But when you get hit and sacked within 2 seconds - you have to realize the problem isnt the QB. When your RBs average 3.0 YPC - you cannot blame the QB all the time.

People here are clamoring for more shots down the field. Its physically cannot happen. The WRs cannot run routes 35-40 yards down field if the QB is sacked within 2 seconds. You cannot throw a WR open if they arent looking or finished with their route.

And yes - you can point to a few plays where they are missed. 2 out of 30-35-40 times is very little. And plus if you dont think QBs are affected when they are hit and knocked down consistently - then we need to be a little more open minded.

And this isnt one game with Jones. He stunk against Seattle - we all saw it. But if you watch every QB in the league. When they get time and can set their feet - plays are made. When they are hurried, pressure, and forced to move the pocket 85-90% of the plays - they will struggle. It is pretty simple.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 06, 2023, 10:42:09 AMThere is too many misses by Jones to not consider him a big part of the issue right now.  If he is responsible for making the blocking adjustments at the line, then he is really deficient in that regard.  If it's someone else's responsibility, I would wonder why. 

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 09:57:24 AMQBs arent robots. Some of those sacks I disagree with. Not recognizing a blitz, not throwing a ball away losing a yard - sure, you can definitely pinpoint that on Jones.

Jones is in a no win situation with a lot of people and "experts". If he gets rid of the ball quickly, he isnt taking chances down field and not going through his reads. If he holds onto the ball, and then gets sacked - he gets blame for holding onto the ball and not making quicker decisions.

This is what I know for sure. If he is getting sacked 6+ times a games (it may have been more last week) in 2 seconds or under. I am not blaming the QB. If an edge or DE hits our QB unblocked - thats not on the QB.

What I find amusing from these "experts" is they fail how many sacks Jones got out of from poor blocking a sif it doesnt matter. I bet he avoided another 6-10 more Seattle where some other QBs would have been sack. But do they give him credit for that? Nah...

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 06, 2023, 10:02:51 AMIf there is a completely unaccounted for blitzer/DE it's almost always the QBs fault. Most starting QBs in the NFL are capable of either shifting the blocking to the overload side, or be aware that there is an unblocked man and adjust his decision making on that play accordingly.  If you see Jones dropping back to pass completely unaware of an untouched blitzer...that's his fault.  If the blitzers are all accounted for but Evan Neal completely whiffs on his block as he is want to do...that's on the OL.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 10:47:35 AMAgain you are ignoring the fact that the QB especially a veteran QB has pre snap responsibilities and should have the awareness to recognize if a blitz is coming and adjust accordingly.  If you watch enough games of other teams you see the elite ones doing so.  As GMO pointed out if the adjustment is made pre snap and someone like Neal or another player on the line misses their block it's a different story nothing you can do about that as a QB.

And BTW you can absolutely throw to a WR before they break their route or aren't looking at the time the ball is released.  It's called anticipating how the play is going to develop.  I showed you the video of Eli doing so with Slayton.  When the ball was released Slayton wasn't open yet Eli put the ball in a perfect spot anticipating Slayton would be there when the ball got there.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 06, 2023, 11:06:07 AMJust a question for you, and I'm asking this respectfully and am not looking to get into any sort of debate, but just curious about this:

Let's assume for a second that the Giants in fact do move on from Jones (either after this year or after next year). Do you see him ever being a high end starter for someone else?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:15:00 AMCould he be? Yes. But it would have to be on a team like SF or Philly. They have a lot of top end talent that could mask Jones' weaknesses.

I dont think he could go a middling team and make them a contender.

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 11:18:18 AMThis is all the Giants need to know, to know what their next move should be.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:21:46 AMUnless they actually get good players. But this process is going to take awhile.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:21:46 AMUnless they actually get good players. But this process is going to take awhile.

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 11:27:35 AMThey have good players, they can add all the good players they want. If DJ is the QB it has become evident that it likely will not matter.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 11:40:06 AMOk, so we are acknowledging Jones is a QB that needs to be propped up rather than an elite QB who elevates his team.  And again this is a 5th year QB we are discussing with almost 60 NFL starts in his career.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:40:41 AMWhat good players do they have?

I am very curious to hear this.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:41:50 AMThere are only 2 elite QBs in the league that dont need to be propped up by their teammates. Finding them is extremely hard. Many QBs play are elevated by their surrounding casts.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:41:50 AMThere are only 2 elite QBs in the league that dont need to be propped up by their teammates. Finding them is extremely hard. Many QBs play are elevated by their surrounding casts.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 11:45:03 AMThomas and Barkley to start.  Waller, Robinson and Hyatt if you can actually get them the ball and not always looking to go underneath or check down.

Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert and even Lawrence at this point are the elite QB's in the league who while they aren't perfect or aren't prone to bad games consistently elevate their teams and are productive.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:40:41 AMWhat good players do they have?

I am very curious to hear this.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 06, 2023, 11:45:38 AMI totally agree that it's hard, but at least it doesn't need to be prohibitively expensive, as you're perpetually dealing with rookie QB contracts as you continue to search for your guy.

What is prohibitively expensive and what really cripples a franchise is squinting your eyes and talking yourself into believing your mediocre QB is going to be great and then handing him $40m a year type money with a sizeable guarantee. There is nothing "harder" than winning anything significant with that type of an albatross situation holding you down.

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 11:48:20 AMDarren Waller is a legit #1 option, he has been wide open plenty of times but Jones can't read defenses to get it to him

Wandale and Hyatt are high draft picks and have been plenty open in similar fashion. They have big play ability.

We have an All Pro left tackle

Saquon Barkley is a top 10 RB, probably higher

Slayon and Hodgins are very capable #2s

They have a 2nd round pick at center

EZ has showed competency at tackle, at worst he is a quality, valuable depth oiece across the whole OL minus center

Bellinger is a strong #2 TE, he can start for several teams.

DJ is simply not the guy, it is what it is, the more its excused the more you'll be let down

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:48:50 AMI dont disagree with a word with that. My point is if you dont have Mahomes or Allen right now - getting any qb and play for the Giants and reach their full potential would be next to impossible. Our roster is very bad.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:50:18 AMWow. I am not even going to respond to this. Sorry, but you are WAY overvaluing our players.

Our elite player is Thomas and our two very good players are Lawrence and Barkley. Everyone else is average or much worse.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 06, 2023, 11:50:47 AMAgreed, which is why it's all the more wasteful to be allocating such a large chunk of our resources to a mediocre (at best this year) QB when we have such dire needs elsewhere.

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 11:51:54 AMYou just did

You also are WAY overvaluing the QB

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:47:40 AMMahomes and Allen I agree with. They are the only elite ones.

Herbert has never won a playoff game. And you dont think when healthy, Ekeler- Allen, and Williams arent elite players that make him better? You cannot be elite if you dont win.
Lawrence has been very AVERAGE this year. Putting him in the same class as Mahomes and Allen is ridiculous.
Burrow can be elite, but lets face it - he has been horrible this year and having those 3 WRs definitely prop him up.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:48:50 AMI dont disagree with a word with that. My point is if you dont have Mahomes or Allen right now - getting any qb and play for the Giants and reach their full potential would be next to impossible. Our roster is very bad.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:53:13 AMWell we only have to play him one more year. Getting Williams/Jackson contract off the books will help as well. I am still in favor of drafting a QB in the top 10 and trade Jones for whatever we can. Even if its a 6th. We dont need any controversies. Rip the band aid and if the rookie takes his lumps his first year, so be it.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:59:47 AMEkeler, Allen, and Williams are on par with barkley, Slayton, and Hodgins? let me guess mixon, boyd, higgins, and chase are on the same level as them too? I have heard of it all now.

Oh by the way, herbert really struggled this past week without Ekeler and Williams. Yes they won, but if you want to argue a 54% completion percentage with one TD and one INT is a special performance, then so be it.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:54:08 AMPlease show my evaluation of him. I am literally advocating in this thread to draft a QB and that Jones cannot prop up middling teams. So, please be fair and honest when you speculate what I think.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:06:40 PMWaller is not better than Mike Williams. I mean come on already...

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:07:43 PMWell for one, you seem to think he doesn't have enough to work with, when he is missing receivers who are WIDE OPEN against nfl defenses and time to get it to them. And over-blaming the OL for things that are not their fault. They aren't good, but not as bad as some want to paint the picture of.

So pardon me, for not thinking you have a solid understanding of what we do have on the team.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:59:47 AMEkeler, Allen, and Williams are on par with barkley, Slayton, and Hodgins? let me guess mixon, boyd, higgins, and chase are on the same level as them too? I have heard of it all now.

Oh by the way, herbert really struggled this past week without Ekeler and Williams. Yes they won, but if you want to argue a 54% completion percentage with one TD and one INT is a special performance, then so be it.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:10:13 PMOr are you evaluting the talent and dismissing how bad the talent is because you hate Jones that much?

If our OL wasnt that bad - how come we cant run the ball either? 60 carries for 190 yards. Is that Jones' fault too?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:13:20 PMAnd lets look at what the league thinks of our surrounding cast:

Slayton - 2 year only 5 million guaranteed.
Campbell - 1 year 4 million
Hyatt - passed up by 31 other teams for two rounds
Waller - a bad team traded him for only a 3rd
Hodgins - couldnt even make the Bills team last year
Shepard - 1 year minimum contract

I mean do you really think these guys are coveted by other teams? Seriously?

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:17:51 PMPoor talent would not be frequently getting open like they are.

Not their fault the QB won't look their way because they aren't the checkdown.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:22:09 PMThe stats say opposite. Pointing out to  few select plays doesnt make your point true.

Again, if the talent is so great - why didnt other teams want them?

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 12:20:44 PMLOL,  I like how you leave Robinson off of there. 

If you are going to judge Hyatt by how many teams passed on him how about all of the teams that passed on Justin Jefferson or the teams that passed on Randy Moss?  Guess that means those guys aren't good.

Waller came for a third round pick due to injury concerns.  He wasn't brought in to be a blocking TE.  He was brought in to be a weapon in the passing game because of the match up issues he presents for the opposition.  But if you don't get him the ball it's useless.

Not every team has 4 WR weapons.  There is enough here in the passing game that if you get them the ball in spots that aren't check downs or underneath routes that they can make plays.

Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:23:34 PMWhat stats?

Danny boy is locking onto and looking for the checkdown every play

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:25:08 PMLike you can laugh all you want - but obviously you dont understand that all those players I mentioned - were all available this past offseason to other teams. Robinson was not. I hope you can understand now.

And when Hyatt actually produces at a level thats even near Jefferson - we can have a conversation about him.

And if Waller is that much of an x factor - the raiders wouldnt have traded him and orther teams would have offered a better pick. Again, no body thought much of him.

But I forgot our passing game rivals that of the the best teams in the league.... lol - now thats what is funny.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:53:13 AMWell we only have to play him one more year.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 12:31:26 PMIf this is the narrative you're going with apply that to Daniel Jones.  What team was beating down his door to give him the contract the Giants did?  If he is as good as you believe wouldn't Jones have had teams all coveting him?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 06, 2023, 12:40:44 PMI assume you mean we only have to PAY him one more year.

The Giants don't have to PLAY him for even one more game if they don't want to.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 06, 2023, 12:40:44 PMI assume you mean we only have to PAY him one more year.

The Giants don't have to PLAY him for even one more game if they don't want to.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:42:15 PMYes, definite typo. Like I said, if we draft a Qb in top 10 - I would insist the kid start right away.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 12:46:00 PMWhy?  If the kid they draft they feel needs to sit to start the season with Jones still on the roster why would you force the kid to play when you can have Jones play instead?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:40:31 PMCause the topic brought up that our skilled players were good enough to compete at a high level and I tried to show that the league doesnt view our skilled players at a high level. I am not sure why the pivot always has to be on Jones. But the players we have brought in were not players who other teams saw as impact players. Yet we have people putting them up with that of some of the best players in the league.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:48:33 PMBecause Jones is gone after next year regardless. You dont sit top 10 picks unless you have a contending team (we dont). Richardson isnt a better QB than Minshew - but hes learning on the job immediately. Bryce Young isnt better than Andy Dalton - but they threw him into the fire.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 12:53:19 PMAll I was doing was showing you how your reasoning is flawed.  If you don't think it's flawed apply that reasoning to Daniel Jones.  Where a guy was drafted or what the Giants had to give up to get that player is irrelevant.  Those players have ability if you get them the ball.  If you don't get them the ball you're wasting them.  This isn't like last season where Richie James and Marcus Johnson are dropping passes.  These are players who do have ability.

Patrick Mahomes sat for a full season.  Eli Manning sat for the first half of his rookie season and he was not only the first overall pick but a pick the Giants paid a ransom for. Heck even Jones sat for the first two games of his rookie season. If that player is sat it has little to do with who is better but rather that the rookie QB isn't ready to step in immediately.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 12:53:19 PMAll I was doing was showing you how your reasoning is flawed.  If you don't think it's flawed apply that reasoning to Daniel Jones.  Where a guy was drafted or what the Giants had to give up to get that player is irrelevant.  Those players have ability if you get them the ball.  If you don't get them the ball you're wasting them.  This isn't like last season where Richie James and Marcus Johnson are dropping passes.  These are players who do have ability.

Patrick Mahomes sat for a full season.  Eli Manning sat for the first half of his rookie season and he was not only the first overall pick but a pick the Giants paid a ransom for. Heck even Jones sat for the first two games of his rookie season. If that player is sat it has little to do with who is better but rather that the rookie QB isn't ready to step in immediately.

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 06, 2023, 12:55:48 PMKinda makes me wonder if Jones had been better off sitting the entire 1st year and trying to work on the mental part of the game.  May not have made any difference but we know throwing him directly into the fire on a truly terrible and poorly constructed team didn't help.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:56:08 PMMahomes sat because KC was a playoff team and were coming off a 12-4 season. Thank you for proving my point. We are not a contending team. Eli Manning played 20 years ago. The game has changed dramatically since.

And no we dont have good WRs. You can keep stressing that we do. We dont.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 01:00:22 PMDon't think it would have made a difference but the Giants botched that (one of many by Gettleman/Mara).  They should have just moved on from Eli when they drafted Jones bringing in another veteran to babysit Jones for a year.

That wasn't the only reason Mahomes sat for a year.  Mahomes mainly sat for a year to learn Andy Reid's offense.  He came from a system in college that was nothing like what Reid runs.

And again it's hard to know whether these weapons are good when the QB can't get them the ball.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:03:23 PMOr if they cant get open consistently... or if the OL doesnt block long enough either.

See NFL teams are smart. They see all the film. If these guy were that good and getting openy that consistently..
1) they would have been re-signed or drafted earlier
2) They would be paid a lot more money

The reason why these contracts were cheap with little incentives. The reason why Waller was traded for a late 3rd. The reason why Hyatt went in the third round?

Cause NFL personnel do not see them as difference makers. It has nothing to do with Jones. It has nothing to do with the OL. They are pretty replaceable.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 06, 2023, 11:13:18 AMExactly. Football is a game of chess and Jones is out there playing checkers. He got away with it last year (to an extent) but it's caught up to him this year.

In my view Jones doesn't have the mental processing speed to play QB at a high level against a high level of competition. What I think is happening out there now is that Jones is compensating by thinking so far ahead on a given play that he has trouble seeing the basics when the offense lines up. He's struggling with QB 101 concepts.

Daboll and company have to figure out a way to get him back to the basics of being a semi-competent game manager.

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 06, 2023, 01:06:57 PMTo be fair if JMS had been picked before the Giants they'd have taken Hyatt in the 2nd round.  That guy has a TON of talent but they stubbornly won't play him.  It's infuriating.  Both of the Mannings were yelling for him to see the field last Monday.  If those guys are confused by this what hope do the rest of us have?  And Waller was injury related because when healthy he's a top 4 TE in the entire NFL.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:03:23 PMOr if they cant get open consistently... or if the OL doesnt block long enough either.

See NFL teams are smart. They see all the film. If these guy were that good and getting openy that consistently..
1) they would have been re-signed or drafted earlier
2) They would be paid a lot more money

The reason why these contracts were cheap with little incentives. The reason why Waller was traded for a late 3rd. The reason why Hyatt went in the third round?

Cause NFL personnel do not see them as difference makers. It has nothing to do with Jones. It has nothing to do with the OL. They are pretty replaceable.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 01:16:12 PMNow apply this logic to Daniel Jones and if he was as good as you believe wouldn't teams have been all over him before he signed his extension with the Giants.  If that's the standard we are utilizing to evaluate whether a player is good or not.

As for the receivers not being open.  As we have seen in the video review they have been open but rather than go to them Jones has gone to his check down.  And being NFL open is not the same thing as being open in the ACC.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:13:58 PMI agree Hyatt needs to play more. I hope the NFL was wrong about him. There is no reason for a guy like Slayton to play 90% of our snaps and Hyatt play less than 50%. We know what Slayton is - he is a JAG. He will make a play here and there, but he isnt getting us victories.

Play Hyatt and Robinson the entire game. Slayton can spell Hyatt for a play here and there. Campbell can sell hot dogs in section 105 for all I care.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 01:25:47 PMAgain Hyatt had received 60% of the snaps in Monday night's game.  Robinson 64% of the snaps.  So saying they played less than 50% of the snaps isn't true.  And again Campbell had the 5th most snaps of any receiver on the Giants offense Monday night.  Both Robinson and Hyatt got more snaps.  Only receiver who didn't get more snaps was Shepard.

So it's not a matter of them not getting 50% or more of the snaps.  It's a matter of them not getting the ball.

Quote from: umassgrad on October 06, 2023, 01:26:55 PMDid Darren Waller forget how to get open once he joined the Giants?

Quote from: umassgrad on October 06, 2023, 01:26:55 PMDid Darren Waller forget how to get open once he joined the Giants?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:32:36 PMSnap counts per game:
Hyatt: 36%, 21%, 32%. 60%
Campbell: 67%, 66%, 42%, 31%
Slayton: 67%, 82%, 84%, 88%

I dont use one game samples. Big picture is what matters. And before you accuse me of dismissing robinson, I didnt include his numbers because he is on a pitch count and think he needs to play as much as possible as soon as possible.

There is absolutely 0 reason for Slayton to play as much as he does. 

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 03:52:53 PMI'm not the biggest fans of these two but they do bring up a valid point here.

Quote from: kingm56 on October 06, 2023, 01:10:49 PMNo comment other than it's great to have you back, Doc.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 04:15:15 PMIf the mods will allow me to link from a different Giants website... a poster just posted something that is pretty interest and debunks some opinions here.

Jones ranks 14th in the NFL this year in throwing to his first read.

He also ranked 40th last year.

So this notion seems more myth than reality.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 04:28:57 PMWhat stat are you talking about?  Is it how often a QB throws to their first read, their accuracy throwing to their first read, etc.?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 04:39:56 PMThat the narrative by players, social media experts, and certain posters that Jones only throws to his first read is wrong. It's league average. And last year it was well below league average.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 04:45:55 PMI asked if I can post the link from another website. I don't know what the rules are.

And I told you what it is. Percentage of throws to their first target. How is this difficult to understand?

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 02, 2023, 11:21:06 PMEleven sacks. Wrap your head around that. He's not the worst problem.

That said, this season isn't going to bode well for Daboll, Schoen and Jones. If they have a top five pick, as it looks now, they draft a QB.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 01:29:25 PMThe game tape has shown Waller has been open plenty.  But again we're talking about NFL Open not ACC Open.

Quote from: Woody on October 07, 2023, 08:42:18 AMWhere do you get the game tape is something different than the TV broadcast?

Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 07, 2023, 03:07:08 PMWhat do you think about what she is saying? Is there any validity to it?

Quote from: TDToomer on October 07, 2023, 04:24:02 PMAlmost nothing. Anyone can buy a microphone and create a Youtube channel.