I know he is the #1 guy, making big bucks to play, but his mindset is just not what you want in your 'franchise' QB. He is playing scared and not doing the job. I remember when Eli was having problems, there were many who said he needed to sit for a game or two, would that be so bad right now for Jones? Against two teams we really don't have a prayer of beating, might it not be in his best interest long term, to sit and let Taylor have at it for a game or two? What harm would it really do and might light some spark under certain players?
I am not a psychologist, but my guess is no. I would start him again in the next game, but I not hesitate to would pull him in the middle of the game this time if his level of play isn't clearly improved from what we saw on Monday. It wouldn't be a punitive thing, because I don't think Jones isn't trying, and I don't think you should "punish" someone who is trying their hardest. It would be more to let someone else (ie Taylor) have a try if Jones can't play at a satisfactory level. I feel no differently about hockey goalies, pitchers, or any other underperforming athlete at any level. If the guy on the field, ice, or court isn't getting the job done, let someone else have a go at it for a while. Why should Jones have any more of a guarantee to play than anyone else on the team who isn't performing?
I think if that were on the table they'd have done it at any point during the Cowboys game, or after his back breaking bone headed pick 6 on Monday. Seems like they're going to ride until the bitter end with him. I will say the Dolphins defense hasn't been that great this season, but it likely won't matter because that offense might put up 70 again vs this version of the Giants defense.
He needs to be clearly told the orders and if he does not execute them, then bench him. If the message is "look downfield on every pass and take shots downfield" and he fails to do that, then pull him.
Lenn, Jones ran for 60+ yards and completed almost 80% of his passes. Do you think Tyrod Taylor would do better?
As bad as everything was Monday, if Jones doesn't turn the ball over the Giants might have won. It was hard to watch, but we all watched because it was still a game until the pick 6. Are you wanting to bench him for the turnovers? I understand if the answer is yes, but then you have a dilemma going forward.
Let him play but multiple turnover games will not be tolerated. This isn't 2021. If they bench him after the second turnover in the first half, I'm good with it. Benching him now just doesn't make sense to me. Its like ousting McCarthy as Speaker. Now what?
We're talking about a Veteran QB in Year 5 not a rookie Eli Manning still learning to play the position. I don't see how there is anything Jones can gain from sitting. Lack of motivation isn't an issue with him.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 08:01:32 PMWe're talking about a Veteran QB in Year 5 not a rookie Eli Manning still learning to play the position. I don't see how there is anything Jones can gain from sitting. Lack of motivation isn't an issue with him.
I am in agreement with you as you can see above, but I guess the argument for it would be as a means of giving him a mental break in the hopes that a week off could help him clear his mind of the Seattle game and try to "start fresh" in week six.
Again, to be clear, I would not do it this way myself, because frankly Jones, while terrible on Monday, was not the only one who was terrible, and we can't bench everyone who played poorly. And I'm also not convinced at all that he'll play better in week six if he is benched in week five.
I do think he should be benched during the game though if he stinks it up again, as explained above. And I think it's fine if Daboll communicates that to him directly before the game, although Jones should not be surprised if this happens without warning. He knows he has to play better.
Benching him might help him to stay healthy... haha
But no - you don't bench him unless the game gets out of hand - which still might be in the third quarter of the next two games haha
But my point is, pulling him in the middle of a game might affect him more than just being told he is sitting for a game. More to get his head straight than a punishment for bad play. Pulling him would be a sort of punishment and it would show the team he isn't cutting it. Having him sit for a game, again, to me, is a way for him to gain some perspective of who the game needs to be played.
Lenny, the reason to bench him would be to give him a reset and observe the game to figure things out. I think it will help but I don't think it should be done now. He's the franchise QB and I think they should see what happens with Miami and Buffalo. The season is over because no matter who is in, they aren't beating those two teams.
Quote from: LennG on October 04, 2023, 09:19:58 PMBut my point is, pulling him in the middle of a game might affect him more than just being told he is sitting for a game. More to get his head straight than a punishment for bad play. Pulling him would be a sort of punishment and it would show the team he isn't cutting it. Having him sit for a game, again, to me, is a way for him to gain some perspective of who the game needs to be played.
Just saw we are on the same page.
Quite honestly, at $40mm a year he shouldn't have this delicate of a psyche to where his coaches are tiptoeing around how to handle him and not wanting to upset him.
If he continues to play poorly, he should eventually be made to sit for a period of time. Seems as simple as that to me. I don't think anyone should worry about the implications of benching him on his mental state. His being on the field should be performance-based, just like everyone else.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 04, 2023, 07:45:42 PMHe needs to be clearly told the orders and if he does not execute them, then bench him. If the message is "look downfield on every pass and take shots downfield" and he fails to do that, then pull him.
"Clearly told"??....he is a 5 year starting 40 million QB. Bench him for a game. Let's see if our supporting cast has talent or not
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 09:24:14 PMQuite honestly, at $40mm a year he shouldn't have this delicate of a psyche to where his coaches are tiptoeing around how to handle him and not wanting to upset him.
If he continues to play poorly, he should eventually be made to sit for a period of time. Seems as simple as that to me. I don't think anyone should worry about the implications of benching him on his mental state. His being on the field should be performance-based, just like everyone else.
That's the thing he's a 5th year player on his second contract not some rookie. I do think there's a difference between pulling him mid game in a blowout versus benching him going into a game where he won't start. The former I have no issue with if anything to see what Taylor can do. The later I don't think it does any good.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 06:31:48 AMThat's the thing he's a 5th year player on his second contract not some rookie. I do think there's a difference between pulling him mid game in a blowout versus benching him going into a game where he won't start. The former I have no issue with if anything to see what Taylor can do. The later I don't think it does any good.
Unless he's getting killed or he has a huge meltdown, it's better to let him finish the game. It's not fair to Taylor to throw him in mid game with no preparation unless an injury is involved. There won't be a true read on TT. I would rather TT prepare for a start and work with the first team going in so they all get used to each other. That includes the snap, the blocking in pass protection, the handoffs and the timing with the Receivers who all vary in speed and agility.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 05, 2023, 06:31:48 AMThat's the thing he's a 5th year player on his second contract not some rookie. I do think there's a difference between pulling him mid game in a blowout versus benching him going into a game where he won't start. The former I have no issue with if anything to see what Taylor can do. The later I don't think it does any good.
I don't think the latter increases our chance of winning the game, but I just feel like from a team perspective it's the right thing to do. I agree it probably doesn't change the outcome much as the game is already over.
Would you pull him in a defensive struggle where he was playing absolutely terribly but the game was undecided in the second half due to the opposing offense being just as bad?
I'm sure Jones doesn't want to miss any game time, if nothing else he is a team guy and a tough one.
That being said, I would go to him during the week and tell him Taylor is starting, for the reason Lenn laid out, to clear his head. Also, have him watch from the sideline and maybe see things from a different perspective instead of trying to figure things out while he's running for his life. Plus it would give him a chance to rest a game and take a break from the physical beatings this O-Line is incapable of stopping.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 05, 2023, 09:01:15 AMI don't think the latter increases our chance of winning the game, but I just feel like from a team perspective it's the right thing to do. I agree it probably doesn't change the outcome much as the game is already over.
Would you pull him in a defensive struggle where he was playing absolutely terribly but the game was undecided in the second half due to the opposing offense being just as bad?
In that situation it's a tough call. I probably wouldn't and don't think Daboll would but there is a case to be made to make that move.
I think any benching would come in game and see how TT plays with the same OL, receivers and plays.
I don't know that he's better than Tyrod Taylor. At least Taylor looks downfield and can also run. I would seriously put Taylor in just to jump start the rest of the offense. I know Taylor could at least find Waller and Hyatt.
I mean seriously look what Tyrod has done on bad teams when he's started a whole season, it's not any worse than Jones.
Ed made a great point, of pulling him mid-game as opposed to having him sit. In a mid game situation, can you really see what a Taylor could do, coming in cold? Look, I'm not suggesting we bench Jopnes and go with Taylor no matter what, Jones is the guy, but he clearly doesn't see the field the way an NFL-caliber QB should, for whatever reasons. He needs to just see things from a different perspective. Let Taylor get the 1st team reps and just see what happens. It sure can't be any worse than what we currently are doing.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 05, 2023, 01:06:09 PMI don't know that he's better than Tyrod Taylor. At least Taylor looks downfield and can also run. I would seriously put Taylor in just to jump start the rest of the offense. I know Taylor could at least find Waller and Hyatt.
I mean seriously look what Tyrod has done on bad teams when he's started a whole season, it's not any worse than Jones.
True. Tyrod has visibly better career numbers than Jones, and he has played on generally bad teams throughout his career. Jones is clearly the better runner, but as a passer the data seems to favor Tyrod somewhat.
If Jones doesn't improve his level of play I don't see why it's some insane idea to give the ball to Tyrod for a period of time.
I really don't think Taylor gives them a better shot at winning. But for Jones' health, I don't want to see him injured, because I don't want any more excuses I.e. "we can't make a judgement because he was injured in week 5"
But I guess, if he does get injured, that's 4 years out of 5 and wouldn't make him "dependable"
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 06, 2023, 08:58:19 AMI really don't think Taylor gives them a better shot at winning. But for Jones' health, I don't want to see him injured, because I don't want any more excuses I.e. "we can't make a judgement because he was injured in week 5"
But I guess, if he does get injured, that's 4 years out of 5 and wouldn't make him "dependable"
Man I just don't know how anyone can justifiably continue to make excuses for him at this point. He is what he is and if the Giants were to drag him out opening day next year I think the team and fans would be like wtf.