Mike Lombardi's I Told You So article about Daniel Jones (the title is admittedly a bit misleading but Mike chose that title).
https://www.vsin.com/nfl/michael-lombardi-a-great-quarterback-is-hard-to-find/
Here is his money line, so to speak:
QuoteDoes anyone still believe that Daniel Jones can win a Super Bowl? The Giants front office does. Not many Giants fans would echo that belief. It made no sense to pay Jones this past offseason. Nothing in his play suggested he could raise his level of play. In fact, when the game got tougher against tougher competition, he faded. Jones is a great person. He's intelligent, athletic and shows the skills needed to play the position, but he cannot play fast when the game speeds up requiring him to make the right decision quickly.
https://www.vsin.com/nfl/michael-lombardi-a-great-quarterback-is-hard-to-find/
No one said it is easy, but you gotta keep trying until you find it.
Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:16:21 PMNo one said it is easy, but you gotta keep trying until you find it.
Did you even read what I posted, or did you just read the headline and post a response?
In the Giants FO/Ownership's defense they were backed into a corner with Jones coming off last season where they would have taken a major hit by letting Jones go. I completely agree with Lombardi's assessment though I am not so sure the FO believes in him as much as we think.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 06, 2023, 12:31:02 PMDid you even read what I posted, or did you just read the headline and post a response?
I read it, and appreciate much of what was said. There some flaws in his assessment but I agree with most of it. Doesn't really change my my previous comment though. They don't have the guy and need to keep trying until they do.
Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:39:48 PMI read it, and appreciate much of what was said. There some flaws in his assessment but I agree with most of it. Doesn't really change my my previous comment though. They don't have the guy and need to keep trying until they do.
It has worked wonders for the Browns.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:41:23 PMIt has worked wonders for the Browns.
Sure, lets never draft a QB again for all eternity. It seems you have a sound idea in how to build an nfl roster and assess players
Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:43:13 PMSure, lets never draft a QB again for all eternity. It seems you have a sound idea in how to build an nfl roster and assess players
No you draft a QB when the opportunity is right. You just dont pick 1 to pick 1.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:46:49 PMNo you draft a QB when the opportunity is right. You just dont pick 1 to pick 1.
Can't determine the outcome of an opportunity unless you seize it
Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:48:34 PMCan't determine the outcome of an opportunity unless you seize it
The amount of cliches on this site amuses me...lol
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:50:31 PMThe amount of cliches on this site amuses me...lol
It's a fact, do you have a magical crystal ball that I'm unaware of?
Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 12:51:34 PMIt's a fact, do you have a magical crystal ball that I'm unaware of?
Yes, I am predicting the first time Jones is sacked Sunday, there will be immediate posts blaming him for it.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:46:49 PMNo you draft a QB when the opportunity is right. You just dont pick 1 to pick 1.
That's a great point. You don't force drafting a QB 6th overall. You wait a year and draft the guy that you were targeting the prior year who stayed for their Senior Year.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 12:56:09 PMThat's a great point. You don't force drafting a QB 6th overall. You wait a year and draft the guy that you were targeting the prior year who stayed for their Senior Year.
And what if he wasnt there? You are assuming the results would have been the same. Thats not how football works. What if we stayed with Eli one more year, and he won 2-3 more games? Now we arent in the position to take him.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:58:11 PMAnd what if he wasnt there? You are assuming the results would have been the same. Thats not how football works. What if we stayed with Eli one more year, and he won 2-3 more games? Now we arent in the position to take him.
Dude I just agreed with you about not picking a QB to pick a QB that you don't force picking a QB. Now you're arguing they should force a pick because there might not be one available the following season. Which is it?
No I am not. You literally said the Giants should pass on a guy and draft who they wanted the next year - which is a reference to Herbert because everyone and their mom knew Gettleman was in love with him.
My point is we dont that would have happened.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:52:53 PMYes, I am predicting the first time Jones is sacked Sunday, there will be immediate posts blaming him for it.
Only if he doesn't read the defense properly would he be blamed. As you yourself in other threads acknowledged he has done.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:05:46 PMNo I am not. You literally said the Giants should pass on a guy and draft who they wanted the next year - which is a reference to Herbert because everyone and their mom knew Gettleman was in love with him.
My point is we dont that would have happened.
No, I pointed out the Giants shouldn't force the 6th overall pick on a QB which falls in line with your original point. Now you're saying they should force a QB pick because you don't know what will be available the following season.
So which is it should a team force a QB pick in a draft or should they be opportunistic when it presents itself showing more patience?
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 06, 2023, 01:18:58 PMNo, I pointed out the Giants shouldn't force the 6th overall pick on a QB which falls in line with your original point. Now you're saying they should force a QB pick because you don't know what will be available the following season.
So which is it should a team force a QB pick in a draft or should they be opportunistic when it presents itself showing more patience?
Never once said they should force a pick. I said if they do take a QB in the top 10, he should play immediately which is not even close to what you are accusing me of saying.
What I pointed out was your hypothetical situation of passing on Jones and taking Herbert the following year is fantasy land because that is not how football works.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:23:09 PMNever once said they should force a pick. I said if they do take a QB in the top 10, he should play immediately which is not even close to what you are accusing me of saying.
What I pointed out was your hypothetical situation of passing on Jones and taking Herbert the following year is fantasy land because that is not how football works.
IDK how it works in fantasy land, but in the real life NFL, Herbert and to a lesser extent Tua, were both picked after the Giants selected.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:23:09 PMNever once said they should force a pick.
Ok, so you agree they shouldn't force a pick like they did with Jones because a QB they like better might not be there a year later. Glad you agree with that.
Quote from: True Blue on October 06, 2023, 01:25:48 PMIDK how it works in fantasy land, but in the real life NFL, Herbert and to a lesser extent Tua, were both picked after the Giants selected.
But again..... You are assuming that if we passed on Jones in 2019 - we would have the same record and draft choice in 2020. Thats not how the NFL works. Like I said, maybe we would have won a few more games? Maybe had a worse record and still could have picked up. No one knows. You cant assume things that are impossible to predict. You cant sit in the war room in 2019 and say "well Herbert didnt come out, lets just wait until next year to draft him." I mean do you really think front offices think that way?
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:28:00 PMBut again..... You are assuming that if we passed on Jones in 2019 - we would have the same record and draft choice in 2020. Thats not how the NFL works. Like I said, maybe we would have won a few more games? Maybe had a worse record and still could have picked up. No one knows. You cant assume things that are impossible to predict. You cant sit in the war room in 2019 and say "well Herbert didnt come out, lets just wait until next year to draft him." I mean do you really think front offices think that way?
If that is the case, you don't draft Daniel Jones due to FOMO.
You either have a guy or you don't, and the Giants haven't had a guy in 5+ years. Teams should draft one every year until they get it right, it's truly the most important position in the game.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 06, 2023, 02:08:28 PMYou either have a guy or you don't, and the Giants haven't had a guy in 5+ years. Teams should draft one every year until they get it right, it's truly the most important position in the game.
Rosters spots, guarantee contracts, and draft capital makes this impossible.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 02:22:17 PMRosters spots, guarantee contracts, and draft capital makes this impossible.
No it doesn't, teams lately have been drafting Qbs yearly or bi yearly with no issue. The 49ers, Carolina, Cardinals etc. You don't have to spend premium capital but investing in a QB whether it's the 2nd or the 7th until you find one is the answer ala KC or Philly who had ok starters but still kept drafting a QBs until they got a guy.
Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:28:00 PMBut again..... You are assuming that if we passed on Jones in 2019 - we would have the same record and draft choice in 2020. Thats not how the NFL works. Like I said, maybe we would have won a few more games? Maybe had a worse record and still could have picked up. No one knows. You cant assume things that are impossible to predict. You cant sit in the war room in 2019 and say "well Herbert didnt come out, lets just wait until next year to draft him." I mean do you really think front offices think that way?
still remember Hebert did not want to come to Giants. Period.
I had previously identified a lack of intellectual consistency as the reason Mike Lombardi failed as a GM. His last podcast showed that shortcoming quite vividly. Immediately after using DJ's bad game as proof that Jones is a bad quarterback and the Giants were foolish to have re-signed him, he goes on to make a huge number of excuses as to why Joe Burrow was performing worse than Daniel Jones. Apparently a lack of protection is a legit reason for a QB's bad performance when talking about Burrow, but not for Jones (who has an even worse offensive line)
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38575845/how-calf-injury-affecting-bengals-joe-burrow-quarterback
If we didn't draft Jones would we have had Haskins?
Quote from: nicky1000 on October 07, 2023, 09:18:38 AMIf we didn't draft Jones would we have had Haskins?
Likely not
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/03/18/dwayne-haskins-ohio-state-pro-day-new-york-giants-interest
Quote from: Woody on October 07, 2023, 08:56:05 AMstill remember Hebert did not want to come to Giants. Period.
Huh? I don't remember seeing that or reading that anywhere.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 07, 2023, 09:04:09 AMI had previously identified a lack of intellectual consistency as the reason Mike Lombardi failed as a GM. His last podcast showed that shortcoming quite vividly. Immediately after using DJ's bad game as proof that Jones is a bad quarterback and the Giants were foolish to have re-signed him, he goes on to make a huge number of excuses as to why Joe Burrow was performing worse than Daniel Jones. Apparently a lack of protection is a legit reason for a QB's bad performance when talking about Burrow, but not for Jones (who has an even worse offensive line)
Here's the difference Joe Burrow's last two seasons he threw for around 4,500 yards and 35 TD's. When has Daniel Jones ever come close to putting up a season like that?
Quote from: nicky1000 on October 07, 2023, 09:18:38 AMIf we didn't draft Jones would we have had Haskins?
No idea if another team in front of the Giants that year would have taken Jones. The teams in front of them (excluding Arizona who took Murray) all were pretty set at QB so it would have been another team after them trading up to take Jones. Think it's pretty clear the Mara and Gettleman were locked in on taking Jones.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 07, 2023, 10:04:26 AMHere's the difference Joe Burrow's last two seasons he threw for around 4,500 yards and 35 TD's. When has Daniel Jones ever come close to putting up a season like that?
The drop-off was more drastic for Burrow, but factually speaking there was a major dropoff in Jones' performance from last season. To be willing to entertain excuses for one and not the other simply is lacking in intellectual consistency
One is an injured elite Qb who has won a title in college and been to the super bowl and the other is a Qb who has done nothing in 9 years of football... how is there a comparison to be found anywhere?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 07, 2023, 10:11:59 AMThe drop-off was more drastic for Burrow, but factually speaking there was a major dropoff in Jones' performance from last season. To be willing to entertain excuses for one and not the other simply is lacking in intellectual consistency
Sure in Burrow's case the drop off is from an Elite QB the prior two full seasons. With Jones it's a case of a from off from an Average QB the prior season.