I debated beginning this thread, a rarity for me in any case, by saying "As usual" I figured there was no point in stating the obvious. With more than two-thirds of the season yet to be played it is simply too soon to indulge our biases and personal conceits by second-guessing the front office, coaches and/or players.
That's not to suggest that we shouldn't be surprised and disappointed and wondering why. What I am suggesting, however, is that the central issue is the same as it was before the season began which is whether or not Daniel Jones, not can be or will be, but is the Giants Quarterback of the future. And what does that mean? It means capable of winning a Lombardi whether likely or not as was so with Eli whose career Regular Season numbers have been described, arguably and I think unfairly, as "profoundly mediocre"
Quite unfortunately, a fair and proper determination re Jones cannot and should not be made under current circumstances which involves having had and still having to play behind the league's worst Oline (30 sacks, 100 pressures in 5 games). That's not just inadequate, it is totally unacceptable given the absence of Thomas and Schmitz not to mention Barkley for who knows when.
Thus, unless and until as the season progresses, there is significant improvement in that one regard, we won't have had just a losing season but a wasted season going forward. An unhappy outcome for sure and more than just unimagined, unexpected, and unfortunate for Schoen and Daboll.
Cheers! or better yet, À votre santé
Same to you my friend. (At our age, that is pretty important). :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I remember when Jones was drafted. Many thought great move and many thought if this wasn't 'The Guy' it would set our franchise back 4 years. Well, it is now into the 5th year and the same questions are still being asked, is he a QB who can lead us forward? If, at the end of this new contract, say we can get out after 2 years, and Jones still hasn't shown what most of us would just love him to show, we will have wasted 6 years on him and maybe still not know if he can handle the NFL in a winning way.
One thing I do have to add. Myself and quite a few others would love to move on from Jones. But, I'm sure (I know myself included) don't go out every game day and hope he screws up. We all would like nothing better than for him to suddenly 'get it' and be the QB many hoped he would be when drafted. I really don't know anyone who roots against him, not to succeed. But time and again, he leaves us feeling lost, confused, and most of all frustrated.
When is enough, enough? How many more years will we wait?
Sláinte mhaith!
Larry, I think you're right. It's not fair under the current circumstances. Venting is appropriate but there needs to be some semblance of order and the organization isn't going to make any decisions until at least the end of the season.
I think there's venting and then there's fans taking the machine, pushing the button, and the machine goes from venting to sucking and then Jones, and every other convenient scapegoat, like the latest and greatest Shark or Dyson product, is guaranteed to be caught in its clenches.
In other words, can we stop stating the obvious, please, and try to tackle the challenge of reverse psychology, perhaps, and look for any signs of fight that they're trying to break through this unexpected season of pure turmoil?
That would really make for some good dialogue and reading. Easier said than done, I know, but why not try?
I appreciate our Chief Philosopher in Residence for his thoughtful post today.
Peace!
One thing for sure, Big Blue Haggle is more active when the team is horrible than when it's on a roll.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 12, 2023, 08:05:49 AMOne thing for sure, Big Blue Haggle is more active when the team is horrible than when it's on a roll.
Bad news and negativity bring the eyeballs.
Finding something positive in this team is more challenging than fielding a decent offensive line. :doh:
Larry I would agree with you if Jones wasn't in Year 5 almost 60 starts into his NFL career. I don't get the perspective of how you can't evaluate him. I get the perspective believing that with what a person has seen of him that if he has a supporting cast that can prop him up that he can be a productive NFL QB. But that's just me.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 12, 2023, 08:35:27 AMLarry I would agree with you if Jones wasn't in Year 5 almost 60 starts into his NFL career. I don't get the perspective of how you can't evaluate him. I get the perspective believing that with what a person has seen of him that if he has a supporting cast that can prop him up that he can be a productive NFL QB. But that's just me.
We put you down for a no, 5487 posts ago. :knockONwood:
Quote from: T200 on October 12, 2023, 08:12:46 AMBad news and negativity bring the eyeballs.
Finding something positive in this team is more challenging than fielding a decent offensive line. :doh:
Yup there's more to say about diagnosing how to fix it than how it went well. It shows how smart we are. We're experts! Lol
Quote from: Painter on October 11, 2023, 08:43:56 PMI debated beginning this thread, a rarity for me in any case, by saying "As usual" I figured there was no point in stating the obvious. With more than two-thirds of the season yet to be played it is simply too soon to indulge our biases and personal conceits by second-guessing the front office, coaches and/or players.
That's not to suggest that we shouldn't be surprised and disappointed and wondering why. What I am suggesting, however, is that the central issue is the same as it was before the season began which is whether or not Daniel Jones, not can be or will be, but is the Giants Quarterback of the future. And what does that mean? It means capable of winning a Lombardi whether likely or not as was so with Eli whose career Regular Season numbers have been described, arguably and I think unfairly, as "profoundly mediocre"
Quite unfortunately, a fair and proper determination re Jones cannot and should not be made under current circumstances which involves having had and still having to play behind the league's worst Oline (30 sacks, 100 pressures in 5 games). That's not just inadequate, it is totally unacceptable given the absence of Thomas and Schmitz not to mention Barkley for who knows when.
Thus, unless and until as the season progresses, there is significant improvement in that one regard, we won't have had just a losing season but a wasted season going forward. An unhappy outcome for sure and more than just unimagined, unexpected, and unfortunate for Schoen and Daboll.
Cheers! or better yet, À votre santé
Larry,
This is an outstanding post. I think you should debate starting threads less and starting threads more. This is the sort of high quality content we strive for, well done :ok:
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 12, 2023, 08:44:39 AMWe put you down for a no, 5487 posts ago. :knockONwood:
Maybe I should just drop it to 0 for good, no?
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 12, 2023, 08:05:49 AMOne thing for sure, Big Blue Haggle is more active when the team is horrible than when it's on a roll.
Drilling down, I think when the team is doing well, our membership increases, and the diversity of posters increases. When the team does badly, we lose the stream of new posters, and many regulars post less.
While admittedly, I have no statistical study to support this; it's been my observation that the increased activity is driven by a smaller percentage of the membership.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 12, 2023, 09:30:27 AMDrilling down, I think when the team is doing well, our membership increases, and the diversity of posters increases. When the team does badly, we lose the stream of new posters, and many regulars post less.
While admittedly, I have no statistical study to support this; it's been my observation that the increased activity is driven by a smaller percentage of the membership.
It's like being at a game. If the Giants make a bad play, there are moans and groans and then there are the people who are demonstrably much louder.
Same thing here. When the team isn't doing well, many express their disappointment with a groan and sigh, while others... :coach: :banghead: :angryfire: :cuss: :computer:
Quote from: T200 on October 12, 2023, 09:37:02 AMIt's like being at a game. If the Giants make a bad play, there are moans and groans and then there are the people who are demonstrably much louder.
Same thing here. When the team isn't doing well, many express their disappointment with a groan and sigh, while others... :coach: :banghead: :angryfire: :cuss: :computer:
To further your analogy, when the Giants are doing poorly in a game, many fans head towards the exit before the game is over. The ones that stay tend to be the most vested in the team and its fortunes.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 12, 2023, 08:05:49 AMOne thing for sure, Big Blue Haggle is more active when the team is horrible than when it's on a roll.
Respectfully, I disagree. Are you telling me that last year, when the team was rolling, the posts here were down? I think, if we are or were a good team, more people would come to post. When we are bad, yes, there may be more posts, but it usually comes from the core that we have, be it pro or con.
When we are winning, there is so much more to talk about and the board is more active. Tell that to Mara and company if he values fan's opinions.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 12, 2023, 09:25:00 AMMaybe I should just drop it to 0 for good, no?
I can do that.
Quote from: LennG on October 12, 2023, 11:10:55 AMRespectfully, I disagree. Are you telling me that last year, when the team was rolling, the posts here were down? I think, if we are or were a good team, more people would come to post. When we are bad, yes, there may be more posts, but it usually comes from the core that we have, be it pro or con.
When we are winning, there is so much more to talk about and the board is more active. Tell that to Mara and company if he values fan's opinions.
You can disagree. I've been watching it but I could be wrong.
Lenn,
There are more posters on the site when we're winning but fewer posters and more posts when we aren't.
Great post, Larry. Fair or not the totality of the evidence tells me that Jones will not be the one to hoist the Lombardi. More importantly he is now on his second neck injury(2 strikes). He takes hard hits both in and out of the pocket. So far he has been very fortunate that the neck injuries have not been career threatening, or worse have long term health effects. I don't need to be a Neurologist to know that his neck area is compromised. I am not wishing it on him, but the next time(3rd strike) he may not be as fortunate. If he gets hurt again in that area that may force a retirement. Mara stated to paraphrase that the Giants have done everything they can to mess him up. Without any proof I believe his contract was a compromise between Daboll-Schoen and Mara. Thus the two year out. Usually new regimes get to pick their own "General". Daboll's toss the surface episode told me that after all the tutelage c'mon Daniel how do you not see the open receiver. Putting aside the supporting cast issue, and I feel you can, Jones has shown he has some of the qualities needed to be a winning QB, but not enough of them.
Quote from: files58 on October 12, 2023, 11:37:17 AMGreat post, Larry. Fair or not the totality of the evidence tells me that Jones will not be the one to hoist the Lombardi. More importantly he is now on his second neck injury(2 strikes). He takes hard hits both in and out of the pocket. So far he has been very fortunate that the neck injuries have not been career threatening, or worse have long term health effects. I don't need to be a Neurologist to know that his neck area is compromised. I am not wishing it on him, but the next time(3rd strike) he may not be as fortunate. If he gets hurt again in that area that may force a retirement. Mara stated to paraphrase that the Giants have done everything they can to mess him up. Without any proof I believe his contract was a compromise between Daboll-Schoen and Mara. Thus the two year out. Usually new regimes get to pick their own "General". Daboll's toss the surface episode told me that after all the tutelage c'mon Daniel how do you not see the open receiver. Putting aside the supporting cast issue, and I feel you can, Jones has shown he has some of the qualities needed to be a winning QB, but not enough of them.
All good points. Jones has a neck like a giraffe. I'm sure he does a lot of neck exercises like we did back in our wrestling days but there's only so much you can do.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 12, 2023, 11:54:36 AMAll good points. Jones has a neck like a giraffe. I'm sure he does a lot of neck exercises like we did back in our wrestling days but there's only so much you can do.
Not to mention that since he's been in the league, in my opinion and in my observation, he seems not to know how to hit the turf properly. Even when he slides(which is too rare), it seems his upper body is prone. He leaves his body vulnerable as compared to other QBs I've observed when they are running.
Jones's neck has got nothing on Mike Glennon!
I have tried to have a balanced view on DJ. My conclusion now (not before the season started) is that he throws too much to check down WRs which result in meaningless yards and 4th downs.
What I cant understand are the detractors who criticize every nuance of his throws and think unreasonably that getting sacked/pressured as much as he gets should not have an impact on his throws when he does have time to throw.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 12, 2023, 12:37:52 PMI have tried to have a balanced view on DJ. My conclusion now (not before the season started) is that he throws too much to check down WRs which result in meaningless yards and 4th downs.
What I cant understand are the detractors who criticize every nuance of his throws and think unreasonably that getting sacked/pressured as much as he gets should not have an impact on his throws when he does have time to throw.
I agree with what you are saying, he does check it down a lot, and locks onto his receivers way to often both of which are basic fundamental errors. I also agree that the pressure he gets does affect him even on clean plays but his movement in the pocket is not good. Either because of the pressure or his fundamentals, he has a horrible habit of walking into sacks, or moving in the pocket towards the rush. His command of the offense is basic by design or limitations and it's affecting everything.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 12, 2023, 01:57:20 PMI agree with what you are saying, he does check it down a lot, and locks onto his receivers way to often both of which are basic fundamental errors. I also agree that the pressure he gets does affect him even on clean plays but his movement in the pocket is not good. Either because of the pressure or his fundamentals, he has a horrible habit of walking into sacks, or moving in the pocket towards the rush. His command of the offense is basic by design or limitations and it's affecting everything.
I have spent a lot of time analyzing his sacks then remembering sacks against Eli Manning and Phil Simms.
Remember not all sacks are the same.
Here are my observations
Simms - generally had a pocket for enough time but held onto ball too long looking for downfield throws then got sacked.
Eli - slowest dropback I ever saw from a QB so gave up precious milliseconds then moved ever so slowly in the pocket (his feet stuck in mud analogy I always said) and got swallowed up.
DJ - pretty quick drop-back but pocket collapses or a DL is already on him before he gets to his set up. Bottom line I see is no pocket formed at all but collapsing almost immediately.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 12, 2023, 09:20:31 AMLarry,
This is an outstanding post. I think you should debate starting threads less and starting threads more. This is the sort of high quality content we strive for, well done :ok:
Thank you, Rich. I am pleased and grateful for your support, and for Ed's and for that of so many others. I am encouraged to see how many folks here share my sentiments and maintain control of their emotions when as Giants fans it is not always easy to do. Certainly, it makes this old Giants fan and BBH member proud.
Cheers!
Love the post, Larry. I'm of similar sentiment and have generally been avoiding the board because it feels too hot-takey. For all the instant gratification football can provide when you're team is good, it can often be an exercise in patience when your team is not. Examining the minutiae, and trying to figure out what is "wrong" often feels like an exercise in futility, or that people aren't willing to simply apply Occam's Razor. For me, the simplest explanation of this teams inability to win is the offensive line's failures. I don't think that absolves or changes my opinion on Daniel Jones, but to be fair to him this season is truly "wasted" and you can chalk up 17 games, a year of your life and rooting for Big Blue to a single unit with underperforming and untalented players. It's a shame, and I don't like being a fair-weather fan, but it can be challenging to tune in and be a fan when you know the cavalry isn't around the corner, and relief might be months, or years from now.