Saw a stat today that said Herbert has more losses since he entered the league than any other active QB. Have also noticed that he's been injured a bit as well. I've not followed the Chargers much so I don't know about their OL other than I know they got a good one in Slater a few years back. I do know they have some elite weapons in Ekeler and Keenan Allen.
Anyway, for the past few years I've felt he's been overrated- that I hadn't really seen a ton from him even though he's obviously got the arm strength to spare. He certainly doesn't seem to be winning like he was expected to. I know quite a few folks on this board really like him and wished we had waited a year to draft our QB in order to get him so I thought it would be interesting to check in with folks and see what they thought of the guy. I watched a bit of the LA-KC game this past weekend and honestly Herbert left a lot of plays on the field, IMO.
So- thoughts?
In what's considered an off year for him, he's on pace for 4500 yards, 29 TDs, and 11 int. Yeah, he's good...
Herbert is an interesting case study. By QB stats, they have an elite QB on a cheap rookie contract.
On the other hand, their record doesn't reflect that natural advantage.
(https://i.imgur.com/x7P1zU8.png)
Not sure what to make of it.
To me Herbert is an immense talent -- hard to find any QB with more raw physical talent than he has -- but he has not fully put it all together yet. And I can't blame it on a lack of talent around him on offense. His play late in games has been concerning.
With the above said, the Chargers' D has been awful pretty much since he came into the league, so to me that is a huge part of the issue, if not the biggest part. He has definitely been on the losing end of close games more than you'd like to see if you're the one cutting the $50mm check each year, but a lot of these losses are 37-34 type losses.
Short answer though is I think he is an elite talent who is near the top of the league in terms of value.
Send jones, barkley, and a 1st for herbert straight up. would you do it?
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 23, 2023, 03:34:30 PMSend jones, barkley, and a 1st for herbert straight up. would you do it?
It would take much, much more than that to get Herbert in a trade. Multiple first rounders as a starting point.
Jones has zero trade value at this point. Nobody in the league would want that contract on their books. Any package is worth more without him than with him.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 23, 2023, 03:34:30 PMSend jones, barkley, and a 1st for herbert straight up. would you do it?
Man, that's like saying trade $5 for $1000. Of course. In a heartbeat.
The Chargers have a dumb HC and a terrible D, which is weird because it used to stocked with studs. All they have left are James and Bosa, both of whom dropped off big time.
And now they can't run the ball or block a pass rush. At all. He's sort of in the same situation as Allen in Buffalo. They're both producing, but the team around them is failing.
Herbert is very good. The Chargers as a team no so much. Their D is bad.
Brandon Staley and predecessor HCs for the Chargers are always on the Hot Seat. Herbert is good but the team constantly underachieves. Remember it's a team game.
How many OCs has Herbert had since he entered the NFL? I think 3.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 03:25:15 PMHerbert is an interesting case study. By QB stats, they have an elite QB on a cheap rookie contract.
On the other hand, their record doesn't reflect that natural advantage.
(https://i.imgur.com/x7P1zU8.png)
Not sure what to make of it.
hmmm it definitely seems like the defense has been terrible, in terms of PPG against- just some quick math with your stats above it's around 25-27 PPG scored on the Chargers each year. I do wonder with the talent the guy has and the talent that's around him why he hasn't been able to win more games....just did a quick search and it looks like he's 27-28 as a starter. I've got a good buddy who's a Chargers fan, I might check in with him and see what insight he might have. Something definitely seems off.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 23, 2023, 04:49:53 PMhmmm it definitely seems like the defense has been terrible, in terms of PPG against- just some quick math with your stats above it's around 25-27 PPG scored on the Chargers each year. I do wonder with the talent the guy has and the talent that's around him why he hasn't been able to win more games....just did a quick search and it looks like he's 27-28 as a starter. I've got a good buddy who's a Chargers fan, I might check in with him and see what insight he might have. Something definitely seems off.
Statistically the defense was in the middle third all 4 seasons
Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 23, 2023, 04:49:53 PMhmmm it definitely seems like the defense has been terrible, in terms of PPG against- just some quick math with your stats above it's around 25-27 PPG scored on the Chargers each year. I do wonder with the talent the guy has and the talent that's around him why he hasn't been able to win more games....just did a quick search and it looks like he's 27-28 as a starter. I've got a good buddy who's a Chargers fan, I might check in with him and see what insight he might have. Something definitely seems off.
PSU: Of note is the fact that they play KC twice each year, which probably skews the stats a bit. Bob
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 23, 2023, 03:34:30 PMSend jones, barkley, and a 1st for herbert straight up. would you do it?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 03:25:15 PMHerbert is an interesting case study. By QB stats, they have an elite QB on a cheap rookie contract.
He's not cheap. He just signed a massive extension of $262.5 million through 2029 so he is untradable by the Chargers for all cap purposes. $133.7 million guaranteed would accelerate onto the Chargers cap!
He's good enough that it really hurts your team when he screws up. And boy do the Chargers do a lot of that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 04:59:52 PMStatistically the defense was in the middle third all 4 seasons
What stat are you looking at? In 2021 they were third worst in the league in points allowed per game.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 23, 2023, 06:22:41 PMWhat stat are you looking at? In 2021 they were third worst in the league in points allowed per game.
To be frank, I'm not sure. I went back to look again and share, but the numbers are more like you described and not what I was looking at. :-??
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 07:10:29 PMTo be frank, I'm not sure. I went back to look again and share, but the numbers are more like you described and not what I was looking at. :-??
Fair enough; understood.
I will say that the Chargers D has some really good players, but, due at least in part (and probably mostly) to inept coaching, they have simply not been a good unit at all in recent years.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 23, 2023, 02:45:34 PMSaw a stat today that said Herbert has more losses since he entered the league than any other active QB. Have also noticed that he's been injured a bit as well. I've not followed the Chargers much so I don't know about their OL other than I know they got a good one in Slater a few years back. I do know they have some elite weapons in Ekeler and Keenan Allen.
Anyway, for the past few years I've felt he's been overrated- that I hadn't really seen a ton from him even though he's obviously got the arm strength to spare. He certainly doesn't seem to be winning like he was expected to. I know quite a few folks on this board really like him and wished we had waited a year to draft our QB in order to get him so I thought it would be interesting to check in with folks and see what they thought of the guy. I watched a bit of the LA-KC game this past weekend and honestly Herbert left a lot of plays on the field, IMO.
So- thoughts?
It's a team game and bad OL will make many QBs look ordinary.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 23, 2023, 02:45:34 PMSaw a stat today that said Herbert has more losses since he entered the league than any other active QB. Have also noticed that he's been injured a bit as well. I've not followed the Chargers much so I don't know about their OL other than I know they got a good one in Slater a few years back. I do know they have some elite weapons in Ekeler and Keenan Allen.
Anyway, for the past few years I've felt he's been overrated- that I hadn't really seen a ton from him even though he's obviously got the arm strength to spare. He certainly doesn't seem to be winning like he was expected to. I know quite a few folks on this board really like him and wished we had waited a year to draft our QB in order to get him so I thought it would be interesting to check in with folks and see what they thought of the guy. I watched a bit of the LA-KC game this past weekend and honestly Herbert left a lot of plays on the field, IMO.
So- thoughts?
His career record is 27-28. I must be missing something here.
I watched a couple of the Chargers games. He definitely has undeniable talent. But I've seen him miss quite a few easy throws. Those misses were on him and cost his team at critical moments in the game. It's very concerning. He's the type of QB that could get you to the hump but not over it. He's a better version of Romo/Prescott. They play well enough to get you a spot in the playoffs but when you really need them, they come up short.
Agreed. Tons of talent but misses way too many easy throws too. Inconsistent. Makes the right read but misses the throw...I don't believe he is very good in the 4th quarter either.
Herbert has some development points for sure. I think we need to remember that he's still only 25, and he has already put up outstanding production. He is still not even in the early years of his prime at this point. While he is receiving some criticism, he is still 6th in YPA, 6th in QBR, and 9th in passer rating. That doesn't exactly suck.
I do think he needs to improve his performance in the two minute drill, as he has had some gaffes there, but it's hard to pin the Chargers' overall struggles on him.
As long as Mara thinks of Jones as the perfect son-in-law prototype- Jones isnt going anywhere
Its obvious Mara had a thumb heavily on the scale of Jones contract talks- "We did everything to screw this guy up". Give me a brake. What ever NFL owner ever said such a thing
Both Saquon and Jones have gotten a bagfull of hall passes...
We have to get TT to teach Jones how to throw a lemondrop pass, although I think its an art form not a skill easily acquired- similar to the 3 point shot in BB
Quote from: T200 on October 24, 2023, 08:22:57 AMI watched a couple of the Chargers games. He definitely has undeniable talent. But I've seen him miss quite a few easy throws. Those misses were on him and cost his team at critical moments in the game. It's very concerning. He's the type of QB that could get you to the hump but not over it. He's a better version of Romo/Prescott. They play well enough to get you a spot in the playoffs but when you really need them, they come up short.
I am beginning to wonder if he ends up being another Cousins
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 07:10:29 PMTo be frank, I'm not sure. I went back to look again and share, but the numbers are more like you described and not what I was looking at. :-??
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 07:10:29 PMTo be frank, I'm not sure.
Rich: Could be your first "senior moment." LOL
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 24, 2023, 10:05:37 AMI am beginning to wonder if he ends up being another Cousins
That's a very appropriate comparison as well.
The Giants should and would trade practically anything to get their hands on a QB as good as Herbert. Throwing left handed he'd be the best QB they've had since Eli. So to answer the question...Yes. He's good.
He has amazing weapons but they get hurt and are getting old
The coach is very bad
But i think he puts up stats but the chargers always are the chargers
Quote from: ralphpal1 on October 24, 2023, 05:40:24 PMHe has amazing weapons but they get hurt and are getting old
The coach is very bad
But i think he puts up stats but the chargers always are the chargers
They also have no real home as a team. The franchise is lost in the wilderness, top to bottom. Herbert hasn't elevated above the quagmire.
Here's a simple exercise to try on Herbert:
You're the Giants GM. You have an opportunity to participate in a lottery where you can poach a QB from another team for the long term. You have to submit your list of QBs in order of preference. How many guys would you put ahead of Herbert on that list? Who would they be?
Seems like an appropriate stat to share here:
https://x.com/Ihartitz/status/1716859771595235769?s=20
I'm moving more toward the feeling that he ain't all that great. Might be a great fantasy football QB but I just don't think he's accurate, a gamer, or a guy who elevates the team around him.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 24, 2023, 07:18:07 PMSeems like an appropriate stat to share here:
https://x.com/Ihartitz/status/1716859771595235769?s=20
I'm moving more toward the feeling that he ain't all that great. Might be a great fantasy football QB but I just don't think he's accurate, a gamer, or a guy who elevates the team around him.
PSU: IMO, like Jones, he is dependent on the quality of other offensive personnel who surround him.
EVERY quarterback in the NFL is, although some ARE more to be able to overcome more adversity than others.
Sadly, it's almost impossible to prove the latter statement. I wish we could place Jones on the Chiefs or Eagles for just one week, and move their QB's to the Giants, because I would dearly love to be conclusively proven wrong (or right) about this.
Bob
Is hurts playing good this season ? Something is off. HE is winning but he has 7 interceptions and he isnt the same
But winning.is all.that matters
Herbert is much better than anyone QB on the Giants roster and it's not even close.
Quote from: T200 on October 24, 2023, 10:08:17 AMThat's a very appropriate comparison as well.
Not the Kirk Cousins who out-duelled "the" Mr. Irrelevant himself on Monday Night Football!
Admittedly, I'll turn on the Chargers games and my take is that the kid, when he's on his game, can match it with any of the game's greatest gunslingers. When he's not, then that's another story. He's been inconsistent so far this season. He's short a WR and a TE, I believe, as well as his center, but He's a four year pro who is supposed to adjust and overcome, right?
Peace!