I think this is an important stat.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9VD6LJXEAAyJjQ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1717355548532748395?s=20
Confirms what the eyes see.
When does sack pressure occur?
1) as QB is dropping back?
2) after he has set his feet?
3) after he sets his feet and has had a chance to scan the field for his first option?
4) after he sets his feet and has had a chance to scan the field for his secondary options?
In the case of DJ, it was generally 1 and 2 above and rarely 3 and never 4.
With Tyrod, I saw a bit better protection (tiny bit) but more importantly, Taylor's ability to move a step or two inside or around collapsing pocket to buy himself another split second which helped him make a throw but he was still making it under duress.
That's what my eyes saw.
What's more telling is the unblocked ratio. Great gosh Josh!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9X5INTWsAAKhs3?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1717563259954294849?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 26, 2023, 11:27:47 AM(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9X5INTWsAAKhs3?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1717563259954294849?s=20
TT and DJ fit into a nice corner office.
I wonder if settings protections and anticipating pressure and avoiding it for a beat or two longer can affect this stat. It really feels like Taylor has a better handle on anticipating pressure than Jones does.
Also, what constitutes the measure of time to pressure? Is it a measure of distance between a pass rusher and the QB? The moment the QB has to start moving in the pocket?
Quote from: Philosophers on October 26, 2023, 10:29:58 AMConfirms what the eyes see.
When does sack pressure occur?
1) as QB is dropping back?
2) after he has set his feet?
3) after he sets his feet and has had a chance to scan the field for his first option?
4) after he sets his feet and has had a chance to scan the field for his secondary options?
In the case of DJ, it was generally 1 and 2 above and rarely 3 and never 4.
With Tyrod, I saw a bit better protection (tiny bit) but more importantly, Taylor's ability to move a step or two inside or around collapsing pocket to buy himself another split second which helped him make a throw but he was still making it under duress.
That's what my eyes saw.
completely agree with this.
The .2 sec difference in DJ and TT could be as simple as the difference between shotgun and play action.
It would be interesting to see how much the Dallas game impacts the data on Jones as well.
https://x.com/Doug_Analytics/status/1717588713339814357?s=20
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9YZuCOWQAAfx8h?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9YZvlQWwAANmqk?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Next Gen Stats:
Time to throw:
Jones 2.73
Taylor 2.72
Average Completed Air Yards:
Jones 4.2
Taylor 5.8
Intended Air Yards
Jones 6.3
Taylor 8
Air Yards Differential
Jones -2.1
Taylor -2.2
Aggressive percentage
Jones 10.6%
Taylor 15%
Average Yards to Stick
Jones -3
Taylor -1.2
Average depth of Target
Jones 6.3
Taylor 8
Also saw a stat on FTN who took over the DVOA stats that outsiders used to have where Jones was pressured on 47.5% of his snaps, and only completing 54.4% of his passes and throwing it 3.6 Yards per attempt when pressured. Jones had been hurried on 41 snaps or 22.9% of his plays for a 65.9% completion rate but only 4.1 Yards per attempt. Teams only blitzed Jones 47 times or 26.3% of his snaps for a 52.6% completion rate at 4.1 Yards per attempt.
Also check out nfl savants Giants page were they chart passing stats. Wild to look and see the jump of deep passes on an actual chart by week. Here is the site
https://nflsavant.com/game.php?team_code=NYG&team_id=3410&stype=REG&year=2023
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/10/24/daniel-jones-forced-sit-idly-by-tyrod-taylor-revives-new-york-giants/
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 26, 2023, 04:52:55 PMhttps://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/10/24/daniel-jones-forced-sit-idly-by-tyrod-taylor-revives-new-york-giants/
I've done deep dives into 10 of the top 15 Qbs in the 2024 draft. Thought about posting 1 daily in the same thread but thought it might be a little premature only halfway through the season.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 26, 2023, 05:33:03 PMI've done deep dives into 10 of the top 15 Qbs in the 2024 draft. Thought about posting 1 daily in the same thread but thought it might be a little premature only halfway through the season.
Way too premature.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 26, 2023, 05:33:03 PMI've done deep dives into 10 of the top 15 Qbs in the 2024 draft. Thought about posting 1 daily in the same thread but thought it might be a little premature only halfway through the season.
The end of season games/post season games are the ones that typically matter.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 26, 2023, 06:07:39 PMThe end of season games/post season games are the ones that typically matter.
I would agree, I've been following this class since last year and have in depth scouting reports. I did it to be able to see their pros and cons from last year and to see how they've grown/progressed.
This is a stat that is distorted by how a QB can move within a pocket. This is an area that Jones has regressed majorly. On the first big pass to Hyatt on Sunday, Tyrod reset in they pocket before making the throw. I don't think that counted as a pressure. Jones would have moved right into a pressure.
You guys. Please stop inundating us with facts. Admit it. You all made up those charts out of thin air, right. Bob
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on October 26, 2023, 08:13:08 PMThis is a stat that is distorted by how a QB can move within a pocket. This is an area that Jones has regressed majorly. On the first big pass to Hyatt on Sunday, Tyrod reset in they pocket before making the throw. I don't think that counted as a pressure. Jones would have moved right into a pressure.
QBs also have roles in sacks and pressures; to that point, if a QB fails to locate an open receiver in 5 seconds, and gets sacked, is it really the OL fault? Same with pressures, if the QB is pressured because he failed to recognize a blitz and throw to a hot wr, is it entirely the OL fault? How about the QB's failure to audible to a correct play? These charts, while impressive, are completely useless as they're provided in a vacuum.
Quote from: kingm56 on October 27, 2023, 07:41:46 AMQBs also have roles in sacks and pressures; to that point, if a QB fails to locate an open receiver in 5 seconds, and gets sacked, is it really the OL fault? Same with pressures, if the QB is pressured because he failed to recognize a blitz and throw to a hot wr, is it entirely the OL fault? How about the QB's failure to audible to a correct play? These charts, while impressive, are completely useless as they're provided in a vacuum.
I agree that QBs have more influence on line play than many realize/accept. The notion that O line play is static and only QB play is impacted by it (and not even a little bit of the other way around) is absolutely false IMO. Release time, pre-snap diagnosis/audibles, and pocket awareness/manipulation all play roles.
And, very importantly, I also think QBs themselves impact what types of looks they face from opposing defenses. If you have a QB who rarely looks downfield and whose primary instinct at the first sign of trouble is to check it down, the defensive fronts that that QB is going to see will differ from a QB who establishes himself as a guy who will take shots down field routinely. I think this is a key part of the reason why Taylor has not had as much trouble with opposing pass rushes as Jones has had. The notion that the explanation for this is entirely, 100% because a previously horrible line suddenly started to play much better out of the blue, and that it had nothing whatsoever to do with the QB being Taylor and not Jones, just does not ring true at all. Occam's razor comes into play here.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on October 26, 2023, 08:13:08 PMThis is a stat that is distorted by how a QB can move within a pocket. This is an area that Jones has regressed majorly. On the first big pass to Hyatt on Sunday, Tyrod reset in they pocket before making the throw. I don't think that counted as a pressure. Jones would have moved right into a pressure.
If we were talking sacks, I would agree. However, we are talking time to pressure. That has nothing to do QB (the QB is can influence if that pressure turns into a hit or sack).
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 27, 2023, 08:33:27 AMIf we were talking sacks, I would agree. However, we are talking time to pressure. That has nothing to do QB (the QB is can influence if that pressure turns into a hit or sack).
TO an extent I agree; however, not completely and the reason is this.
If the Giants have 5:6 at the line with, the 6th guy is on the QB to identify pre snap, change coverage, audible or identify the hot read.
If the Defense presents with a overhang player that is not on the Oline, that is on the QB to identify and once again adjust to by change coverage, audible, recognize the flat pattern to the overflow side or if applicable identify the hot read. I would argue this read is exactly why Jones appears to sees more shotgun in an attempt to aid him.
I bring up those two scenarios as they can be seen on the game film from the first 7 and the mistakes in doing so are more prevalent in the first 5 games. In fact, that is exactly why 6 of the 18 sacks Jones saw in those 2 games were on him and not the Oline.
Quote from: babywhales on October 27, 2023, 09:24:12 AMTO an extent I agree; however, not completely and the reason is this.
If the Giants have 5:6 at the line with, the 6th guy is on the QB to identify pre snap, change coverage, audible or identify the hot read.
If the Defense presents with a overhang player that is not on the Oline, that is on the QB to identify and once again adjust to by change coverage, audible, recognize the flat pattern to the overflow side or if applicable identify the hot read. I would argue this read is exactly why Jones sees more shotgun in an attempt to aid him.
I bring up those two scenarios as they can be seen on the game film from the first 7 and the mistakes in doing so are more prevalent in the first 5 games. In fact, that is exactly why 6 of the 18 sacks Jones saw in those 2 games were on him and not the Oline.
Chris,
Where were you able to find the stats for percent shotgun for a QB?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 27, 2023, 09:28:24 AMChris,
Where were you able to find the stats for percent shotgun for a QB?
Rich,
I did not and miss spoke in my hast to type. To be fair, I should of typed, "appears to see more shotgun". I will edit and correct my original comment. If I get time later I can look some advanced splits and see if I can find them
I found the advanced splits at Pro football reference
Jones is in shotgun 133 of 151 snaps 88%
Tyrod is in shotgun 63 of 80 snaps, 78%.
So not as big of difference as I would have expected.
Jones runs more playaciton as well
Jones Play action 23%
Tyrod 17%
The biggest difference I see of the two is RPO
Jones runs RPO 15%
Tyrod runs RPO .05%
If a guy leaves the pocket too soon, he can create pressure that wasn't there. Jones was doing it. He has developed David Carritis. Not necessarily his fault with what he had to deal with. But it is there now and there is usually no recovery.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 27, 2023, 08:33:27 AMIf we were talking sacks, I would agree. However, we are talking time to pressure. That has nothing to do QB (the QB is can influence if that pressure turns into a hit or sack).
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 27, 2023, 09:28:24 AMChris,
Where were you able to find the stats for percent shotgun for a QB?
They have most passing stats play action, vs coverages, deep ball passing etc at FTNFantasy