DJ tore his ACL during the last play of the first quarter. The team examined his knee during the break. So why on God's green earth was he taking a snap to start the second quarter with a torn ACL???
Daboll said he was running on the sideline. Maybe he should have been running backwards. Maybe it's not an ACL. Maybe it's an MCL. Maybe it was partially torn or strained and the final damage occurred when he planted it.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 06, 2023, 08:31:58 AMDaboll said he was running on the sideline. Maybe he should have been running backwards. Maybe it's not an ACL. Maybe it's an MCL. Maybe it was partially torn or strained and the final damage occurred when he planted it.
Ed,
Having had knee problems since I was a teen, I am pretty familiar with having a knee examination. When one tears a ligament, there is telltale instability when they perform those tests. It has nothing to do with running; it's how the knee responds when you tug and pull in various directions. With the ACL torn, there would have been clear-cut instability, which a competent medical people would have detected. Jones can run after the ACL, but the instability would have still been there. Jones is lucky he wasn't hurt worse.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 08:26:10 AMDJ tore his ACL during the last play of the first quarter. The team examined his knee during the break. So why on God's green earth was he taking a snap to start the second quarter with a torn ACL???
Rich: There ARE other possibilities (including just plain bad luck) but possibly because he's a tough kid with a strong sense of duty/obligation to the team and his teammates who (maybe) had been lying to, or at least not being full open with, the medical staff. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 08:36:18 AMRich: There ARE other possibilities (including just plain bad luck) but possibly because he's a tough kid with a strong sense of duty/obligation to the team and his teammates who (maybe) had been lying to, or at least not being full open with, the medical staff. Bob
Bob,
In medicine, there are signs (things the medical person can observe) and symptoms (things the patient tells the medical person). An ACL has signs (knee instability during examine), the symptoms (pain) can be variable and not a key indicator.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 08:36:14 AMEd,
Having had knee problems since I was a teen, I am pretty familiar with having a knee examination. When one tears a ligament, there is telltale instability when they perform those tests. It has nothing to do with running; it's how the knee responds when you tug and pull in various directions. With the ACL torn, there would have been clear-cut instability, which a competent medical people would have detected. Jones can run after the ACL, but the instability would have still been there. Jones is lucky he wasn't hurt worse.
Then the tear if there is one would have occurred when he went back in.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 06, 2023, 08:39:47 AMThen the tear if there is one would have occurred when he went back in.
I re-watched the play that ended the first quarter, multiple times. It's pretty clear that's when DJ tore his ACL.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 08:40:57 AMI re-watched the play that ended the first quarter, multiple times. It's pretty clear that's when DJ tore his ACL.
So you know better watching film than the medical staff examining him? If that's the case they should definitely be fired.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 06, 2023, 08:42:37 AMSo you know better watching film than the medical staff examining him? If that's the case they should definitely be fired.
Ed,
Please... I have a link in the "football Doc fears and ACL for DJ" thread where a team of doctors looked at the film and saw the ACL injury occur, so I am hardly alone.
Still, it's quite concerning the Giants medical staff failed to detect the ACL injury and sent DJ back on the field.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 08:45:52 AMEd,
Please... I have a link in the "football Doc fears and ACL for DJ" thread where a team of doctors looked at the film and saw the ACL injury occur, so I am hardly alone.
Still, it's quite concerning the Giants medical staff failed to detect the ACL injury and sent DJ back on the field.
That's what I said.
I read a report that he said he was good to go back in.
That's not a smart move. So throw that into the 3 tenets that JS wants, he's also not dependable. Tough as nails though.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 06, 2023, 08:58:36 AMI read a report that he said he was good to go back in.
That's not a smart move. So throw that into the 3 tenets that JS wants, he's also not dependable. Tough as nails though.
The problem was he was not good to go back in. I have a hard time, faulting a player who gets and ACL, though. Unless they have had more than one, they tend to be freak injuries (as was the case yesterday). DJ was trying to avoid Cager, who saw the pursuer chasing DJ and ran towards DJ to try and block in (accidentally serving more as another pass rusher). Cager would have done better simply to go out and serve as an outlet receiver to DJ.
One other note, this injury occurred on an outstanding grass field.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 09:08:23 AMThe problem was he was not good to go back in. I have a hard time, faulting a player who gets and ACL, though. Unless they have had more than one, they tend to be freak injuries (as was the case yesterday). DJ was trying to avoid Cager, who saw the pursuer chasing DJ and ran towards DJ to try and block in (accidentally serving more as another pass rusher). Cager would have done better simply to go out and serve as an outlet receiver to DJ.
One other note, this injury occurred on an outstanding grass field.
No, clearly he wasn't good to go back in. I wasn't intimating he was. All I said is I read a report where he was asked if he was good to go and that was that.
He should have been held out a series so he could have had a more comprehensive evaluation.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 06, 2023, 09:13:50 AMNo, clearly he wasn't good to go back in. I wasn't intimating he was. All I said is I read a report where he was asked if he was good to go and that was that.
He should have been held out a series so he could have had a more comprehensive evaluation.
Maybe the overriding factor was not to lose this game and it blinded Daboll but I doubt that. He relies on the word of his medical staff.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 08:26:10 AMDJ tore his ACL during the last play of the first quarter. The team examined his knee during the break. So why on God's green earth was he taking a snap to start the second quarter with a torn ACL???
maybe a change that should have happened years ago .. Ronnie Barnes a Mara favorite and soul mate I guess.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 08:38:54 AMBob,
In medicine, there are signs (things the medical person can observe) and symptoms (things the patient tells the medical person). An ACL has signs (knee instability during examine), the symptoms (pain) can be variable and not a key indicator.
Rich: Well then, you're blaming the doctors. It's also a possibility, I suppose, but you know I have extensive medical malpractice experience and based on that I am seriously doubtful. Bob
There's at least two ways this could have happened: 1) the ACL was partially torn but strong enough to the feel that upon examination he was cleared to play and then that plant on the next play finished the job. 2) He was flexing his quad while he was being examined leading to a "false positive" of sorts because that could lead to the knee feeling more stable than it actually is.
It happened to Jake Ballard in the super bowl if you remember. They didn't put him back on the field I don't think but they examined him, thought he was ok so they let him run, and then he crumpled as soon as he tried to make a cut. If they had felt his knee was gone, they never would have let him try it out.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 06, 2023, 10:02:31 AMThere's at least two ways this could have happened: 1) the ACL was partially torn but strong enough to the feel that upon examination he was cleared to play and then that plant on the next play finished the job. 2) He was flexing his quad while he was being examined leading to a "false positive" of sorts because that could lead to the knee feeling more stable than it actually is.
It happened to Jake Ballard in the super bowl if you remember. They didn't put him back on the field I don't think but they examined him, thought he was ok so they let him run, and then he crumpled as soon as he tried to make a cut. If they had felt his knee was gone, they never would have let him try it out.
I remember seeing the infamous "crumple" To me that was another stunning failure of the Giants medical staff. Players shouldn't be crumpling like that, period, end of sentence.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 06, 2023, 10:02:31 AMThere's at least two ways this could have happened: 1) the ACL was partially torn but strong enough to the feel that upon examination he was cleared to play and then that plant on the next play finished the job. 2) He was flexing his quad while he was being examined leading to a "false positive" of sorts because that could lead to the knee feeling more stable than it actually is.
It happened to Jake Ballard in the super bowl if you remember. They didn't put him back on the field I don't think but they examined him, thought he was ok so they let him run, and then he crumpled as soon as he tried to make a cut. If they had felt his knee was gone, they never would have let him try it out.
gm: I agree and do remember the Ballard situation. That's what football players do. Play through pain. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 10:07:51 AMgm: I agree and do remember the Ballard situation. That's what football players do. Play through pain. Bob
Part of the job of an NFL medical staff is to protect players both from themselves.staffs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 10:06:13 AMI remember seeing the infamous "crumple" To me that was another stunning failure of the Giants medical staff. Players shouldn't be crumpling like that, period, end of sentence.
Agreed. But if they examine him and the knee feels stable. Without an MRI there's not much else they can do. ACL physical exams are remarkably accurate. They can feel stability or lack of stability very accurately. But without a scan it's not 100%. Like I said a partial tear could still feel stable. But even the slightest tear will weaken the ligament enough so that the next big move rips it completely.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 06, 2023, 10:14:33 AMAgreed. But if they examine him and the knee feels stable. Without an MRI there's not much else they can do. ACL physical exams are remarkably accurate. They can feel stability or lack of stability very accurately. But without a scan it's not 100%. Like I said a partial tear could still feel stable. But even the slightest tear will weaken the ligament enough so that the next big move rips it completely.
I am trying to think of other teams where we saw players crumple on the sideline or send their starting QB back into the game, only to see their knee buckle on a simple dropback.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 10:10:02 AMPart of the job of an NFL medical staff is to protect players both from themselves.staffs.
Rich: I cannot disagree. I'm just sick-and-tired of all the injuries for the Giants virtually every season. All other things being equal, I'd rather fire all of the medical staff than any of the coaches (or most of the players). Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 09:08:23 AMOne other note, this injury occurred on an outstanding grass field.
I saw what you did there,
@MightyGiants ;)
The whole situation is a damned shame for a guy, judge him if you must, wants to go out and be a leader of this team and, now, a knee does him in.
It's almost like watching Phil Simms early in his career all over again.
Peace!
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 10:20:53 AMRich: I cannot disagree. I'm tired of all the injuries for the Giants. All other things being equal, I'd rather fire all of the medical staff than any of the coaches (or most of the players). Bob
If every Schoen had enough ammunition to fire Ronnie Barnes and shake up the medical staff...
I appreciate that John Mara is loyal to Ronnie because Ronnie spent a week at his father's deathbed, but at some point, one has to do something about injuries kneecapping Giants seasons over the past decade. At some point you have to acknowledge that the Giants constantly leading the league in injuries and lost time isn't just bad luck.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 10:23:51 AMIf every Schoen had enough ammunition to fire Ronnie Barnes and shake up the medical staff...
I appreciate that John Mara is loyal to Ronnie because Ronnie spent a week at his father's deathbed, but at some point, one has to do something about injuries kneecapping Giants seasons over the past decade. At some point you have to acknowledge that the Giants constantly leading the league in injuries and lost time isn't just bad luck.
Just give Ronnie a nice golden parachute so he can enjoy his retirement. Money solves everything.
Quote from: TDToomer on November 06, 2023, 11:18:35 AMJust give Ronnie a nice golden parachute so he can enjoy his retirement. Money solves everything.
From what I understand, Ronnie Barnes is already a very wealthy man. Ronnie was involved in many profitable business ventures involving rehab.
Why should things change? The way to shock Mara into acting, or just getting the f out of the way is the result of all this losing having a negative impact on the bottom line. The price for trotting out 3rd, 4th , and fifth stringers should be a financial loss. Regardless if they go 2-15 or 15-2 they're going to make a pile of money. The question should be put to Mara thusly, hey John suppose you have a subscription to the Philharmonic, and they trot out the 4th violinist as Concert Master, the conductor is a nut with a wand, and the guy playing piano had his latest gig in the Port Authority subway station. Would you go, and spend money? Free parking, a $1,000 refund to all seat license owners, and a reduction in ticket prices is a good place to start. He needs to feel pocket pain to effect a change. How many companies would go out of business for putting forth such a terrible product? B/t/w this losing is not new. Several weeks ago I compiled a regular season W-L record since 1965. They were at that time 420-474. Despite the four SB wins, and their status as a flagship franchise they are a historically losing organization.
It's official. DJ to IR with an ACL.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 08:26:10 AMDJ tore his ACL during the last play of the first quarter. The team examined his knee during the break. So why on God's green earth was he taking a snap to start the second quarter with a torn ACL???
totally agree. another ridiculous blunder by this coaching and medical staff. playing through pain is one thing. playing on an unstable ligament is something totally different. props to DJ for being a tough SOB. dude gutted it out through a torn ACL until it physically couldnt handle any more. I'll remember him for his toughness more than anything else.
I always think back to Ron Dixon when someone plays on an ACL. Hopefully, for DJ there wasn't any extensive damage that will end his career.