Not that any of this impacted the outcome of the season, but I'm just curious: how does a medical/training staff get what I would have thought was a fairly routine diagnosis this wrong? Any ideas?
https://twitter.com/PLeonardNYDN/status/1740806349368267217
A FRANK BARONE, HOLY CRAP.
Ankle sprain vs ankle fracture, how does that sort of misdiagnosis happen?
It's not uncommon. Depending where the fracture is and the type of fracture you could easily miss it on an X-ray and would need an mri. I fractured right medial malleolus and it didn't show up on the X-ray at the ER. When it was still hurting weeks later I went to a foot specialist and it didn't show up on his X-ray but it did on the MRI he ordered.
Quote from: madbadger on December 29, 2023, 02:41:50 PMIt's not uncommon. Depending where the fracture is and the type of fracture you could easily miss it on an X-ray and would need an mri. I fractured right medial malleolus and it didn't show up on the X-ray at the ER. When it was still hurting weeks later I went to a foot specialist and it didn't show up on his X-ray but it did on the MRI he ordered.
Thanks for sharing. That's good color.
I'll admit, I always assume the worst from a competency perspective about anything having to do with our medical and training staff. The results speak for themselves.
When they took the E-Ray it might have been a small hairline that was not detectable due to swelling or the stress he was putting on it increased it. They may not have taken an MRI.
https://www.healthline.com/health/hairline-fracture#diagnosis
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 29, 2023, 02:44:22 PMThanks for sharing. That's good color.
I'll admit, I always assume the worst from a competency perspective about anything having to do with our medical and training staff. The results speak for themselves.
I don't know if the Giants even have a radiologist on staff. If not it's hard to blame the team or the team doctors.
Quote from: madbadger on December 29, 2023, 02:41:50 PMIt's not uncommon. Depending where the fracture is and the type of fracture you could easily miss it on an X-ray and would need an mri. I fractured right medial malleolus and it didn't show up on the X-ray at the ER. When it was still hurting weeks later I went to a foot specialist and it didn't show up on his X-ray but it did on the MRI he ordered.
This is the truth. If you are still feeling pain on the bone, even after being told it's a sprain, get the MRI which will definitively confirm if there's a fracture.
I've been having this type of pain on my tibia about three inches below the hardware from my total knee replacement for the last three months. I'm going to have an MRI soon to determine the cause.
Many years ago, I sustained a third degree sprain which I was told it would have been better if I would have broken it altogether. After my wife successfully did hers in, just days before my knee replacement this past May, I'm not so sure!
Hopefully Neal can make a full recovery and rehab to make it stronger than it was before.
Peace!
Quote from: madbadger on December 29, 2023, 02:41:50 PMIt's not uncommon. Depending where the fracture is and the type of fracture you could easily miss it on an X-ray and would need an mri. I fractured right medial malleolus and it didn't show up on the X-ray at the ER. When it was still hurting weeks later I went to a foot specialist and it didn't show up on his X-ray but it did on the MRI he ordered.
madb: Solid points. Lots of small bones very close together, all of which, if involved, have the same symptoms (generally).
If x-rays are taken after symptoms fail to subside over a typical waiting period, the conclusion that something might be chipped or slightly cracked, is inevitable.
That is probably what occurred in this case. Also, some slight fractures heal themselves, depending upon whether you're lucky and/or follow doctor's instructions about not stressing the area needlessly (i.e., playing ball).
Bob
I guess my question is- how does an organization with as much $$$ and resources as the New York Giants not do everything in their power to correctly diagnose issues like this from the start? Especially when you consider the extreme INVESTMENT they make in their players- not just financially but in draft capital, time, coaching, etc.
I just don't get it. Can someone please explain to me how you can be in the business of players playing a violent sport and NOT doing everything in the business' power to diagnose and keep those players as healthy as possible??? If there is anywhere an NFL team should overinvest $$$ and resources it should be in the health and welfare of their players.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 29, 2023, 02:39:08 PMAnkle sprain vs ankle fracture, how does that sort of misdiagnosis happen?
How, you ask, Richie? An atrocious training/medical staff that never seems to get better. Just to give an example, the Giants have no less than three place kickers on the IR. Three! That has got to be an NFL record. Sadly, that stat is not an outlier. Rarely, if ever, does the number of Giants listed on the injury report not far exceeds that of the opponent. Yet nothing ever changes.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 29, 2023, 02:44:22 PMThanks for sharing. That's good color.
I'll admit, I always assume the worst from a competency perspective about anything having to do with our medical and training staff. The results speak for themselves.
That indeed is a helpful input and likely explanation based on an actual experience.
However, this seemingly relentless suspicion, doubt, and criticism of the Giants training and medical staff has existed for quite some time, indeed long enough for there to have been in fact some significant turnover in personnel. We aren't just talking about a couple of years.
I doubt that more than a few of us actually know who currently are, or has in the past been, members of the Giants training, conditioning, diagnostic, medical and surgical staffs or their education, experience and competence except perhaps for one individual who may be a little too well liked and respected throughout the organization including the players, so as to perhaps cut across a personal conceit, or prompt a cavil reflex.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on December 29, 2023, 04:42:18 PM
That indeed is a helpful input and likely explanation based on an actual experience.
However, this seemingly relentless suspicion, doubt, and criticism of the Giants training and medical staff has existed for quite some time, indeed long enough for there to have been in fact some significant turnover in personnel. We aren't just talking about a couple of years.
I doubt that more than a few of us actually know who currently are, or has in the past been, members of the Giants training, conditioning, diagnostic, medical and surgical staffs or their education, experience and competence except perhaps for one individual who may be a little too well liked and respected throughout the organization including the players, so as to perhaps cut across a personal conceit, or prompt a cavil reflex.
Cheers!
Is it really not fair to at least question the job those in charge of training and medical are doing when the actual end results on this front are consistently among the worst, if not the absolute worst, in the league over a statistically meaningful amount of seasons? Why do we need to know all their names and precise credentials in order to simply raise a question? Do we need to know the name and all background details of every single scout the team has across the country in order to question the job the team has done finding talent in drafts, if the roster continues to be poor over many years and draft picks continue to bust or severely underwhelm?
If end results are consistently bad in any area of any sensibly run organization, it is pretty normal practice to look closely at, and sometimes make changes within, the group of individuals responsible for that area, particularly at the leadership level. I would fully expect to be scrutinized closely and potentially come under fire if my end results at work were bad, especially if these bad results spanned many years, and probably even if it were just one or two years. I think any professional person would expect that. I don't see why this would or should be any different.
Does this soften the criticism for his poor play this year? I would think FA or the draft has to see real competition at RT. Im hoping he transitions to guard.
Quote from: gregf on December 29, 2023, 06:33:37 PMDoes this soften the criticism for his poor play this year? I would think FA or the draft has to see real competition at RT. Im hoping he transitions to guard.
No. I think he only played parts of two games after injuring it. That wouldn't account for his poor play before the injury.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 29, 2023, 05:13:06 PMIs it really not fair to at least question the job those in charge of training and medical are doing when the actual end results on this front are consistently among the worst, if not the absolute worst, in the league over a statistically meaningful amount of seasons? Why do we need to know all their names and precise credentials in order to simply raise a question? Do we need to know the name and all background details of every single scout the team has across the country in order to question the job the team has done finding talent in drafts, if the roster continues to be poor over many years and draft picks continue to bust or severely underwhelm?
If end results are consistently bad in any area of any sensibly run organization, it is pretty normal practice to look closely at, and sometimes make changes within, the group of individuals responsible for that area, particularly at the leadership level. I would fully expect to be scrutinized closely and potentially come under fire if my end results at work were bad, especially if these bad results spanned many years, and probably even if it were just one or two years. I think any professional person would expect that. I don't see why this would or should be any different.
That's a fair enough point and I'm sure that takes place on the Giants' Medical Staff as it would anywhere else.
You really have to apply solid root cause, corrective / preventive action discipline when looking at data trends over time.
Many of us (including myself) believed the turf change would mitigate instances of joint injuries. Instead, between the Giants, Jets and their opponents, injuries continued at rates equal to, or perhaps higher than, rates on the previous turf. So, where do we go from here if the turf wasn't the root cause? Or, perhaps the methods used to evaluate the risks for injury, for the new turf, were not properly utilized for the testing which was performed. Before you can throw the book at Ronnie Barnes, and his organization, what does it say about the Jets' injuries and their medical staff. Or, every opponent who was injured on that same turf and their medical staff; should they all be grilled as much as Barnes and his staff here?
I know we've used Neal's experience to discuss this same topic we regurgitate, over and over, and it is frustrating when an initial diagnosis turns out to be more serious over time. If you have ever had a serious injury to your foot, ankle, knee or hip, I can assure you from the experience of six major surgeries, a minor procedure I completed this morning, and countless appointments with my surgeons where I wanted to ring his neck because I felt I was being jerked around. They don't always go to extremes when handling injuries. They start with the lowest common denominator, wait for your feedback, then go to the next level of care.
Ronnie Barnes and his team are not God. Neither are his peers throughout the league. Do you want to know a good sign when Ronnie and his team is failing at his job? You read articles of former players filing lawsuits against their former teams (e.g. Lawrence Tynes against the Bucs). To date, I haven't read of any complaints but, instead, compliments and praise being heaped on Ronnie and his staff.
Peace!
Next year the Vikings are changing their turf to a another turf, a version that has better injury data than their current playing surface.
The stadium will go from a slit-film turf to a monofilament surface .
I have no idea what kind of turf there is in Met Life Stadium
Quote from: PSUBeirut on December 29, 2023, 03:16:50 PMI guess my question is- how does an organization with as much $$$ and resources as the New York Giants not do everything in their power to correctly diagnose issues like this from the start? Especially when you consider the extreme INVESTMENT they make in their players- not just financially but in draft capital, time, coaching, etc.
I just don't get it. Can someone please explain to me how you can be in the business of players playing a violent sport and NOT doing everything in the business' power to diagnose and keep those players as healthy as possible??? If there is anywhere an NFL team should overinvest $$$ and resources it should be in the health and welfare of their players.
Also, especially when you know you have had league worst and near-worst injury results for YEARS.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on December 29, 2023, 07:36:00 PMNext year the Vikings are changing their turf to a another turf, a version that has better injury data than their current playing surface.
The stadium will go from a slit-film turf to a monofilament surface .
I have no idea what kind of turf there is in Met Life Stadium
Won't make a difference. Last year when the discussion came up about the turf someone posted a link to games lost the last decade due to injury. Six of the top ten teams with the most games lost played on grass. It's the single most overhyped issue that the players union can't let go of. It's a violent sport with 100% injury rate.
Quote from: kartanoman on December 29, 2023, 07:12:10 PMThat's a fair enough point and I'm sure that takes place on the Giants' Medical Staff as it would anywhere else.
You really have to apply solid root cause, corrective / preventive action discipline when looking at data trends over time.
Many of us (including myself) believed the turf change would mitigate instances of joint injuries. Instead, between the Giants, Jets and their opponents, injuries continued at rates equal to, or perhaps higher than, rates on the previous turf. So, where do we go from here if the turf wasn't the root cause? Or, perhaps the methods used to evaluate the risks for injury, for the new turf, were not properly utilized for the testing which was performed. Before you can throw the book at Ronnie Barnes, and his organization, what does it say about the Jets' injuries and their medical staff. Or, every opponent who was injured on that same turf and their medical staff; should they all be grilled as much as Barnes and his staff here?
I know we've used Neal's experience to discuss this same topic we regurgitate, over and over, and it is frustrating when an initial diagnosis turns out to be more serious over time. If you have ever had a serious injury to your foot, ankle, knee or hip, I can assure you from the experience of six major surgeries, a minor procedure I completed this morning, and countless appointments with my surgeons where I wanted to ring his neck because I felt I was being jerked around. They don't always go to extremes when handling injuries. They start with the lowest common denominator, wait for your feedback, then go to the next level of care.
Ronnie Barnes and his team are not God. Neither are his peers throughout the league. Do you want to know a good sign when Ronnie and his team is failing at his job? You read articles of former players filing lawsuits against their former teams (e.g. Lawrence Tynes against the Bucs). To date, I haven't read of any complaints but, instead, compliments and praise being heaped on Ronnie and his staff.
Peace!
So as long as you aren't being sued, all is well, even though the end results are god-awful?
:ok:
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 29, 2023, 09:52:23 PMSo as long as you aren't being sued, all is well, even though the end results are god-awful?
:ok:
I'm open to any other indicator, should you offer examples for us here.
I have provided examples of positive and negative feedback, which you are welcome to validate or invalidate, and I take no exception nor feeling should you choose one or the other. But know I provided them with the intent of open and honest communication and/or debate.
But make no mistake I understand you take those with a grain of salt, which I respect your position, just the same.
Peace!
https://x.com/tommyg105/status/1740846197009416226?
Quote from: kartanoman on December 29, 2023, 10:07:45 PMI'm open to any other indicator, should you offer examples for us here.
I have provided examples of positive and negative feedback, which you are welcome to validate or invalidate, and I take no exception nor feeling should you choose one or the other. But know I provided them with the intent of open and honest communication and/or debate.
But make no mistake I understand you take those with a grain of salt, which I respect your position, just the same.
Peace!
I guess I just go back to the original point around the end results being terrible over a very long period of time - more than enough to be statistically meaningful. Simply put, we can't keep our guys healthy. Yes, it's a grueling, dangerous sport, but even against that contextual backdrop we do worse than basically every other team at keeping our guys on the field. Maybe some fans can accept that and just shrug their shoulders, and that is obviously their right; I can't. I view it as a problem that needs to be rectified. And I have not yet seen any substantial evidence that we're taking material steps to do so as an organization.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 29, 2023, 10:24:26 PMhttps://x.com/tommyg105/status/1740846197009416226?
At what point is the player responsible for saying I can't go? If Thomas, Barkley and Gano tell you coach I'm hurting but I think I can give you four solid quarters you're going to say no? None of their injuries were serious enough that a doctor would put his foot down. He'll make his recommendations and then the player and coaches decide what they're going to do.
Judy Ahmad the mother of the Yankees team Dr Christopher Ahmad was really good friends with my mother. I can tell you from the few times that I've talked to him you'd be shocked at what little input they have in who plays and who doesn't. Sometimes it turns out to be a total disaster for the team and the player.
Quote from: madbadger on December 29, 2023, 02:41:50 PMIt's not uncommon. Depending where the fracture is and the type of fracture you could easily miss it on an X-ray and would need an mri. I fractured right medial malleolus and it didn't show up on the X-ray at the ER. When it was still hurting weeks later I went to a foot specialist and it didn't show up on his X-ray but it did on the MRI he ordered.
there are 26 bones and 33 joints in a human foot
Quote from: madbadger on December 29, 2023, 11:05:34 PMAt what point is the player responsible for saying I can't go? If Thomas, Barkley and Gano tell you coach I'm hurting but I think I can give you four solid quarters you're going to say no? None of their injuries were serious enough that a doctor would put his foot down. He'll make his recommendations and then the player and coaches decide what they're going to do.
Judy Ahmad the mother of the Yankees team Dr Christopher Ahmad was really good friends with my mother. I can tell you from the few times that I've talked to him you'd be shocked at what little input they have in who plays and who doesn't. Sometimes it turns out to be a total disaster for the team and the player.
I do believe this plays into the overall equation. Years ago, during the Parcells years, Carl Banks pointed out the unwritten rule about being injured and, if you couldn't go, there might be questions about your toughness. He was called into question when he dislocated his wrist in Dallas during the 1990 season. After a bye week, he made the decision to play in a cast at RFK Stadium against the Skins where he broke up several plays but ended up injuring himself even more. Many players took painkillers to deal with getting beat up every week which led to drug addictions or severe injuries which crippled or killed them (e.g. CTE). They ended up suing the NFL as medical professionals on teams would sometimes under-diagnose their conditions, during the season, then tell them after the season was over what they really had going on.
Carl Banks went on to say that the Giants (i.e. Ronnie Barnes' team) were not into shooting up players back in those days.
Peace!
Quote from: kartanoman on December 30, 2023, 03:21:15 AMI do believe this plays into the overall equation. Years ago, during the Parcells years, Carl Banks pointed out the unwritten rule about being injured and, if you couldn't go, there might be questions about your toughness. He was called into question when he dislocated his wrist in Dallas during the 1990 season. After a bye week, he made the decision to play in a cast at RFK Stadium against the Skins where he broke up several plays but ended up injuring himself even more. Many players took painkillers to deal with getting beat up every week which led to drug addictions or severe injuries which crippled or killed them (e.g. CTE). They ended up suing the NFL as medical professionals on teams would sometimes under-diagnose their conditions, during the season, then tell them after the season was over what they really had going on.
Carl Banks went on to say that the Giants (i.e. Ronnie Barnes' team) were not into shooting up players back in those days.
Peace!
North Dallas Forty
It was really obvious earlier that trainers/medical staff looked out for teams first and not the player's personal welfare.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 30, 2023, 11:37:21 AMIt was really obvious earlier that trainers/medical staff looked out for teams first and not the player's personal welfare.
Yes but that wasn't a Giant thing, it was an NFL thing. Coaches and player league wide embraced playing through an injury as a sign of toughness. In retrospect it was a sign of stupidity.
Quote from: madbadger on December 29, 2023, 11:05:34 PMJudy Ahmad the mother of the Yankees team Dr Christopher Ahmad was really good friends with my mother. I can tell you from the few times that I've talked to him you'd be shocked at what little input they have in who plays and who doesn't. Sometimes it turns out to be a total disaster for the team and the player.
Is he the doctor who misdiagnosed Anthony Rizzo's concussion and let him keep playing so hit hit under .200 for 2 months before being shut down for the year? They Yankees fans are having the same fits with their medical staff decisions.
Quote from: TDToomer on December 30, 2023, 05:22:37 PMIs he the doctor who misdiagnosed Anthony Rizzo's concussion and let him keep playing so hit hit under .200 for 2 months before being shut down for the year? They Yankees fans are having the same fits with their medical staff decisions.
No clue. Chris is a should specialist. Not sure if he would have seen Rizzo for a head injury. Head injuries are tricky to diagnose especially if the player doesn't want to be completely forthcoming with the doctor who is examining them.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0-Fwm8JnXx/?igsh=MWczMWVpaWJmMGRhbA==