Not ready to move on from Daniel Jones. But... cough cough, it up to Schoen and Daboll.
Did you write that letter to Mara, Ed? =))
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 14, 2024, 08:25:15 PMDid you write that letter to Mara, Ed? =))
Not this time, Rich. Lol
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 14, 2024, 08:25:15 PMDid you write that letter to Mara, Ed? =))
Someone from another Giants site did.
What else did they expect?
Yeah we hate DJ and we'll draft player x at 6.
Sure...
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Of course they aren't ready to give up on him. They have another truck of money bags to deliver this season. That does not preclude them from drafting a QB they like or at least making some aggressive moves to get him.
Next offseason will be a different story.
No news in that letter
But nice of him to respond
I will say this. We saw the chart that showed that Daniel Jones (not Jones, Taylor, and Devito) was put in a terrible situation with far more pressures coming the quickest of any QB. He had 1 great and 1 good game and 4 mediocre games in a no-win situation. I have a hard time (unless I engage in confirmation bias because I had previous negative views of Jones) saying that sample size is enough to justify the team "giving up on Jones".
That said, I don't understand how John Mara doesn't see an issue with injuries. It doesn't matter how much talent Jones ultimately processes; he can't win games for the team in the trainer's room.
To the bigger picture, I am also mindful of this reality:
If the Giants planned on drafting a QB in round 1 or 2 of the draft, the public statement would be- We haven't given up on Daniel Jones; we will look at QBs as we look at all positions...
If the Giants planned on passing on a QB in the draft, the public statement would be- We haven't given up on Daniel Jones; we will look at QBs as we look at all positions...
So I am not sure what fans expected to hear from John Mara.
I will say this... After 5 seasons, Daniel Jones has not demonstrated that he can be anything other than an average QB in even the most ideal situations. He had one quarter of good performance against the Hapless Cards last season to come back and win the game after trailing for most of the game. If he had stayed healthy, most likely the Giants would be picking second in the Draft. His injury once again gives him a stay of execution. Mr.Checkdown who crumbles under pressure has the ability to perform well in an optimal environment but when the big moments come, it proves too big for him. No vision, no anticipation, and takes off running instead of moving outside the pocket to extend plays because he can't effectively throw on the run.
Tyrod Taylor outplayed him with the same Offensive Line issues. Tommy DeVito won games based on pure enthusiasm and not being a sad sack.
Looking at the career of Matt Stafford, he played a long time for a lousy organization and some pretty bad teams, but it was obvious that he was a good QB and when he went to a better team he had one great season that matched the 41 TD's and almost 5000 yards he had with the Lions. He's had his injury issues too but his worst healthy season was the only one with under 4000 yards and only 21 TD's.
The time for excuses and justifications is over. He is what he is. Mara is in love with the character of the man and how he represents the NY Giants. That is totally justified.
I will say this, no one has had more excuses for his poor play than Daniel Jones. If the Giants want a future any time soon, they must move on from Jones after next year meaning they must try to find a QB this year. If not, well, we can watch other teams succeed while the Giants spin their wheels in mediocrity.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 15, 2024, 09:39:47 AMI will say this... After 5 seasons, Daniel Jones has not demonstrated that he can be anything other than an average QB in even the most ideal situations. He had one quarter of good performance against the Hapless Cards last season to come back and win the game after trailing for most of the game. If he had stayed healthy, most likely the Giants would be picking second in the Draft. His injury once again gives him a stay of execution. Mr.Checkdown who crumbles under pressure has the ability to perform well in an optimal environment but when the big moments come, it proves too big for him. No vision, no anticipation, and takes off running instead of moving outside the pocket to extend plays because he can't effectively throw on the run.
Tyrod Taylor outplayed him with the same Offensive Line issues. Tommy DeVito won games based on pure enthusiasm and not being a sad sack.
Looking at the career of Matt Stafford, he played a long time for a lousy organization and some pretty bad teams, but it was obvious that he was a good QB and when he went to a better team he had one great season that matched the 41 TD's and almost 5000 yards he had with the Lions. He's had his injury issues too but his worst healthy season was the only one with under 4000 yards and only 21 TD's.
The time for excuses and justifications is over. He is what he is. Mara is in love with the character of the man and how he represents the NY Giants. That is totally justified.
Jones and Tyrod did not face the same offensive line issues
Jones was pressured 52% of the time, and the pressure got there (on average) in just 2.31 seconds
Taylor was pressured 36% of the time, with the pressure taking 2.58 seconds to get there.
Those are not the same conditions.
Edit to add- Devito faced pressure 32% of the time taking 2.9 seconds to develop
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 09:59:28 AMJones and Tyrod did not face the same offensive line issues
Jones was pressured 52% of the time, and the pressure got there (on average) in just 2.31 seconds
Taylor was pressured 36% of the time, with the pressure taking 2.58 seconds to get there.
Those are not the same conditions.
Edit to add- Devito faced pressure 32% of the time taking 2.9 seconds to develop
What are the TTT figures for each QB?
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 09:59:28 AMJones and Tyrod did not face the same offensive line issues
Jones was pressured 52% of the time, and the pressure got there (on average) in just 2.31 seconds
Taylor was pressured 36% of the time, with the pressure taking 2.58 seconds to get there.
Those are not the same conditions.
Edit to add- Devito faced pressure 32% of the time taking 2.9 seconds to develop
It's not just 2023, Jones has not produced in 5 years, no other team or fan base would settle for the lack of production from one position for this long. It's wild, if Jones played any other position we would have asked for him to be replaced 3 years ago. But because there's this strange attachment to him people would rather us continue to lose and give Jones chance 97 than to actually move in a different direction for the better.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 15, 2024, 11:23:42 AMWhat are the TTT figures for each QB?
TD- 3.09 seconds
DJ- 2.85
TT- 2.83
I personally don't put much stock in TTT as things scrambling/moving around the pocket, receivers being covered, and how deep are the average air yards in the scheme. In other words, it might indicate a QB holding the ball too long, but it just as easily doesn't.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 15, 2024, 11:26:42 AMIt's not just 2023, Jones has not produced in 5 years, no other team or fan base would settle for the lack of production from one position for this long. It's wild, if Jones played any other position we would have asked for him to be replaced 3 years ago. But because there's this strange attachment to him people would rather us continue to lose and give Jones chance 97 than to actually move in a different direction for the better.
Jones produced in both his rookie season and 2022. If DJ hadn't produced in 2022 the Giants would have made it to the divisional round of the playoffs
Bottom Line: Daboll and Schoen have to look ahead. Jones is hardly a player to count on saving your tenure. I'm fairly confident that they are well aware of that.
How they do it is key and TBD.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 15, 2024, 09:39:47 AMI will say this... After 5 seasons, Daniel Jones has not demonstrated that he can be anything other than an average QB in even the most ideal situations. He had one quarter of good performance against the Hapless Cards last season to come back and win the game after trailing for most of the game. If he had stayed healthy, most likely the Giants would be picking second in the Draft. His injury once again gives him a stay of execution. Mr.Checkdown who crumbles under pressure has the ability to perform well in an optimal environment but when the big moments come, it proves too big for him. No vision, no anticipation, and takes off running instead of moving outside the pocket to extend plays because he can't effectively throw on the run.
Tyrod Taylor outplayed him with the same Offensive Line issues. Tommy DeVito won games based on pure enthusiasm and not being a sad sack.
Looking at the career of Matt Stafford, he played a long time for a lousy organization and some pretty bad teams, but it was obvious that he was a good QB and when he went to a better team he had one great season that matched the 41 TD's and almost 5000 yards he had with the Lions. He's had his injury issues too but his worst healthy season was the only one with under 4000 yards and only 21 TD's.
The time for excuses and justifications is over. He is what he is. Mara is in love with the character of the man and how he represents the NY Giants. That is totally justified.
When did that ever occur??
Quote from: spiderblue43 on February 15, 2024, 12:57:50 PMBottom Line: Daboll and Schoen have to look ahead. Jones is hardly a player to count on saving your tenure. I'm fairly confident that they are well aware of that.
How they do it is key and TBD.
Thanks to those meaningless wins, Schoen and Daboll find themselves in a very bad situation. If a quality QB falls to them at 6, I think they grab him and don't look back. If a quality QB doesn't fall, I think they are in a no-win situation. They could TRY (if that's even an option) to trade up, but it would cost so many assets that it would leave them so devoid of talent that it would be a long shot they could properly develop a rookie QB. The other option would be to ride with Daniel Jones and cross your fingers that he can stay healthy (focusing on developing an NFL-caliber O-line might help those odds).
Next year's QB class will be like the one that produced Kenny Pickett as the only first-rounder, so getting a QB next year seems unlikely. I guess they could look at a free-agent reclamation project, but the Giants don't have the sort of talent levels it takes for that type of move to work.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 01:12:55 PMThanks to those meaningless wins, Schoen and Daboll find themselves in a very bad situation. If a quality QB falls to them at 6, I think they grab him and don't look back. If a quality QB doesn't fall, I think they are in a no-win situation. They could TRY (if that's even an option) to trade up, but it would cost so many assets that it would leave them so devoid of talent that it would be a long shot they could properly develop a rookie QB. The other option would be to ride with Daniel Jones and cross your fingers that he can stay healthy (focusing on developing an NFL-caliber O-line might help those odds).
Next year's QB class will be like the one that produced Kenny Pickett as the only first-rounder, so getting a QB next year seems unlikely. I guess they could look at a free-agent reclamation project, but the Giants don't have the sort of talent levels it takes for that type of move to work.
For them to trade up and give up all those draft assets over a three year period, they would have to really have a sense of urgency to do it. Unless it's just one slot up.
I don't see the need. Out of the six QBs who look like eventual starters, at least three should be available. If they pass on six, then they see Jones as the best option.
Unfortunately, being injured, he is unable to work on his issues and work with his Receivers until he's cleared to practice. His gitty up days are over at least for the foreseeable future so he's got to read the progressions better and identify and pull the trigger on a timely basis while managing the pocket to avoid pressure.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 09:59:28 AMJones and Tyrod did not face the same offensive line issues
Jones was pressured 52% of the time, and the pressure got there (on average) in just 2.31 seconds
Taylor was pressured 36% of the time, with the pressure taking 2.58 seconds to get there.
Those are not the same conditions.
Edit to add- Devito faced pressure 32% of the time taking 2.9 seconds to develop
Because Tyrod actually got rid of the ball faster. Jones is at least partially at fault for the sacks. He is not it..never was. We would be picking higher had he stayed healthy but as someone else mentioned he gets a Stay of execution because of injury.
One more year of this...
Quote from: StompYouOT on February 15, 2024, 02:24:22 PMBecause Tyrod actually got rid of the ball faster. Jones is at least partially at fault for the sacks. He is not it..never was. We would be picking higher had he stayed healthy but as someone else mentioned he gets a Stay of execution because of injury.
One more year of this...
A couple of thoughts:
1) Time to pressure is pretty much independent of QB
2) The time each QB (TT and DJ) held the ball was essentially identical, with time to throw for DJ being 2.85 and TT being 2.83
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 11:50:34 AMJones produced in both his rookie season and 2022. If DJ hadn't produced in 2022 the Giants would have made it to the divisional round of the playoffs
Rich he produced the same amount as Davis Mills in 2022. The offense in 2022 was built around the run game and the Defense. The 150 yards Jones had a game was not the deciding factor in our success. Some games he went entire quartets with throwing the ball.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 15, 2024, 03:22:07 PMRich he produced the same amount as Davis Mills in 2022. The offense in 2022 was built around the run game and the Defense. The 150 yards Jones had a game was not the deciding factor in our success. Some games he went entire quartets with throwing the ball.
Those sorts of comparisons are misleading. We are all talking about how deficient this team is in terms of talent. It's not like there was some great talent drain last offseason. Jones led a team that was deficient in talent to a playoff victory before losing to the NFC champs. It's hard to claim that 2022 wasn't a good season for Jones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 03:24:13 PMThose sorts of comparisons are misleading. We are all talking about how deficient this team is in terms of talent. It's not like there was some great talent drain last offseason. Jones led a team that was deficient in talent to a playoff victory before losing to the NFC champs. It's hard to claim that 2022 wasn't a good season for Jones.
Who did Davis Mills have?
Jones had only 5 games in the 2022 regular season were he threw over 200 yards, the rest of the games he averaged 160 yards. The only thing he led us to was a bottom 3rd passing offense in every season as our quarterback.
Great qbs either win regardless of their circumstances or at least show flashes of elite play under bad circumstances and through 5 seasons there is absolutely no doubt that Jones is neither an elite or even a great Qb. So why stick with him if he's simply a game manager, we can get one of those for 5 million. That's before you even bring the injury history into it.
We all know Schoen is in a very tough situation. But he is young and will, he hopes, have a long career ahead of him in the NFL. I feel it is a much bigger risk to his career if he passes on one of the top five QBs in his draft and stays the course with Jones, or just adds a backup veteran as insurance. If Jones doesn't pan out (and after five years of mediocrity the odds are he won't) and one or more of the ballyhooed QBs in the draft are very successful, Schoen will be forever tarnished for not making a move to get one of them. Much more than if he takes one and that QB doesn't pan out (which happens frequently). In my opinion, he really has no choice but to draft a QB in this draft, and I'm not talking mid to late rounds. But then there is the shadow of Mara over his shoulder. This will also be a test of his independence.