I know many here want QB prospects Williams, Mcdaniels and Maye, and I understand, and I get it, as it would be nice get one of them, but realistically the Giants have little to no chance at any of them.
After watching the first 6 games, the O-line was being manhandled and DJ had no time and no shot. If you want to see a good example of this, go and rewatch the Seahawks game, he literally had to play perfect, ball coming out in 2 seconds or less, and even then, it would have been extremely difficult to win. This was noted by the announcers, Aikman and Buck.
The first five out of six opponents were:
A) Cowboys - #5 defense
B) 49ers - #3 defense
C) Seahawks
D) Dolphins
E) Bills - #4 defense (Tyrod started)
The team was 1-5 at this point, as they faced a buzzsaw the first 6 games of the season. DJ throws a good ball, has a strong arm, and is accurate enough to win with.
And for those saying Tyrod was better, he put up a whopping 9 points against the Bills defense, and 14 points against the terrible 4-13 Commanders the following week, so he isn't the long-term answer either.
I also do not think panicking and picking a new QB at 6 just because you need one is the right answer either, that just makes things worse, especially if you get it wrong.
So here is my recommendation, feel free to agree or disagree with this, but this is what I would do.
With the first 3 picks use them on a #1 WR and beef up the O line with the other two picks.
Since DJ is already under contract for the 2024 season, let him play it out and see what he can do when you give him more time, so he can throw some deeper passes. You may actually be surprised that the DJ of 2022 comes back, and him and the team performs well next season, but let's just see.
If they are terrible again, then at that point you can unload the DJ contract, and then look at new QB's in the following seasons 2025-2026 without having to give away the farm for one of them.
Feel free to agree or disagree, but that is what I would do, curious your thoughts?
I'm on board.
Your point is finding a multitude of excuses for why Jones didn't play like a competent decent QB? Tyrod outplayed him (barely) at a much less contract.
Jones is the 6th highest paid cap space player next season and has done absolutely nothing to even come close to his bonuses. What is your point?
The sooner we get rid of him, the sooner we get to a team with winning culture.
sxd: Good post, and I agree with all of it. Bob
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 18, 2024, 11:20:32 PMI know many here want QB prospects Williams, Mcdaniels and Maye, and I understand, and I get it, as it would be nice get one of them, but realistically the Giants have little to no chance at any of them.
After watching the first 6 games, the O-line was being manhandled and DJ had no time and no shot. If you want to see a good example of this, go and rewatch the Seahawks game, he literally had to play perfect, ball coming out in 2 seconds or less, and even then, it would have been extremely difficult to win. This was noted by the announcers, Aikman and Buck.
The first five out of six opponents were:
A) Cowboys - #5 defense
B) 49ers - #3 defense
C) Seahawks
D) Dolphins
E) Bills - #4 defense (Tyrod started)
The team was 1-5 at this point, as they faced a buzzsaw the first 6 games of the season. DJ throws a good ball, has a strong arm, and is accurate enough to win with.
And for those saying Tyrod was better, he put up a whopping 9 points against the Bills defense, and 14 points against the terrible 4-13 Commanders the following week, so he isn't the long-term answer either.
I also do not think panicking and picking a new QB at 6 just because you need one is the right answer either, that just makes things worse, especially if you get it wrong.
So here is my recommendation, feel free to agree or disagree with this, but this is what I would do.
With the first 3 picks use them on a #1 WR and beef up the O line with the other two picks.
Since DJ is already under contract for the 2024 season, let him play it out and see what he can do when you give him more time, so he can throw some deeper passes. You may actually be surprised that the DJ of 2022 comes back, and him and the team performs well next season, but let's just see.
If they are terrible again, then at that point you can unload the DJ contract, and then look at new QB's in the following seasons 2025-2026 without having to give away the farm for one of them.
Feel free to agree or disagree, but that is what I would do, curious your thoughts?
You nailed it. Great idea. I remember the Dallas game like it was yesterday. It got so bad I stopped watching the game and just kept my eyes on the right side of the OL. In so many instances, the 9 tech was not even getting touched as he came around the RT. Even when passes were made without a sack, he was coming in so often unchecked.
No QB will play well under those conditions. They may play slightly better than DJ but we need more than that. We need an offense that can protect the QB, then let him throw downfield.
I am onboard with taking a QB this year only if he is going to be a projected starter within the 1st year as we need a rookie contract to utilize, however, we absolutely need a a stud WR1 and more starting help on the OL especially the right side.
I keyed in on Neal the whole season when he played. His inability to block wide edge rushers is due to an inability to fire out at the snap count as oppose to a split second later and an inabiity to simply move faster and more efficiently. I am not sure that can be taught. I think it is time to move on from Neal. Trust me that is not easy for me to say as I was banging on the drum for this kid leading up to the draft and thought this year he'd make a leap. At a minimum, the Giants need to bring in competition for his spot, but that competition better be able to stop 9 tech edge rushers. If Neal beats him out, it's because he was fantastic, not because the competition was bad.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 18, 2024, 11:20:32 PMI know many here want QB prospects Williams, Mcdaniels and Maye, and I understand, and I get it, as it would be nice get one of them, but realistically the Giants have little to no chance at any of them.
After watching the first 6 games, the O-line was being manhandled and DJ had no time and no shot. If you want to see a good example of this, go and rewatch the Seahawks game, he literally had to play perfect, ball coming out in 2 seconds or less, and even then, it would have been extremely difficult to win. This was noted by the announcers, Aikman and Buck.
The first five out of six opponents were:
A) Cowboys - #5 defense
B) 49ers - #3 defense
C) Seahawks
D) Dolphins
E) Bills - #4 defense (Tyrod started)
The team was 1-5 at this point, as they faced a buzzsaw the first 6 games of the season. DJ throws a good ball, has a strong arm, and is accurate enough to win with.
And for those saying Tyrod was better, he put up a whopping 9 points against the Bills defense, and 14 points against the terrible 4-13 Commanders the following week, so he isn't the long-term answer either.
I also do not think panicking and picking a new QB at 6 just because you need one is the right answer either, that just makes things worse, especially if you get it wrong.
So here is my recommendation, feel free to agree or disagree with this, but this is what I would do.
With the first 3 picks use them on a #1 WR and beef up the O line with the other two picks.
Since DJ is already under contract for the 2024 season, let him play it out and see what he can do when you give him more time, so he can throw some deeper passes. You may actually be surprised that the DJ of 2022 comes back, and him and the team performs well next season, but let's just see.
If they are terrible again, then at that point you can unload the DJ contract, and then look at new QB's in the following seasons 2025-2026 without having to give away the farm for one of them.
Feel free to agree or disagree, but that is what I would do, curious your thoughts?
It was a brutal start of a schedule. The Giants seems totally unprepared and not on the same level as Dallas. We figured going in that Seattle would be a winnable game. I was surprised to win the Cards game after the abysmal start.
Since almost everyone has their radar on the QB class it's not a bad idea to scout our own QB, since it's an out year coming in his contract.
Keep in mind that DJ was training and practicing all preseason with the ones to be the starter. Tyrod was tossed in with much less preparation.
Reviewing your recommendations, a few things come to mind.
Drafting OLine plug and play starters doesn't usually work out immediately and they can take a year to develop. For the long term it could be a solution but they don't always work out.
If the OLine and DJ have the same breakdowns, will drafting another Receiver help in evaluating DJ?
If DJ fails to work out, what is the plan for the rest if the 2024 season and 2025. That QB Class of 2025 at this point looks weak and lacks depth with one exception. Does that put the Franchise back another three years? What happens to Schoen and Daboll at that point? Does it become another do over?
That said, I'm going to take you up on 2023 film review of the Offense and make some comparisons. Try to determine if injuries created challenging situations for TT and Tommy or if things settled down where, DJ would have had improved performance if he had stayed healthy.
Since we are talking DJ and Health, is that any concern for you? When do you think he comes back to start? Will his latest injury diminish his ability to escape pressure and to use his legs to gain yards? Who would you bring in as a backup QB? A potential starter and pay the price or run with Tommy and put that money toward a veteran and proven Guard?
Thanks for the effort and your perspective.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 18, 2024, 11:20:32 PMI know many here want QB prospects Williams, Mcdaniels and Maye, and I understand, and I get it, as it would be nice get one of them, but realistically the Giants have little to no chance at any of them.
After watching the first 6 games, the O-line was being manhandled and DJ had no time and no shot. If you want to see a good example of this, go and rewatch the Seahawks game, he literally had to play perfect, ball coming out in 2 seconds or less, and even then, it would have been extremely difficult to win. This was noted by the announcers, Aikman and Buck.
The first five out of six opponents were:
A) Cowboys - #5 defense
B) 49ers - #3 defense
C) Seahawks
D) Dolphins
E) Bills - #4 defense (Tyrod started)
The team was 1-5 at this point, as they faced a buzzsaw the first 6 games of the season. DJ throws a good ball, has a strong arm, and is accurate enough to win with.
And for those saying Tyrod was better, he put up a whopping 9 points against the Bills defense, and 14 points against the terrible 4-13 Commanders the following week, so he isn't the long-term answer either.
I also do not think panicking and picking a new QB at 6 just because you need one is the right answer either, that just makes things worse, especially if you get it wrong.
So here is my recommendation, feel free to agree or disagree with this, but this is what I would do.
With the first 3 picks use them on a #1 WR and beef up the O line with the other two picks.
Since DJ is already under contract for the 2024 season, let him play it out and see what he can do when you give him more time, so he can throw some deeper passes. You may actually be surprised that the DJ of 2022 comes back, and him and the team performs well next season, but let's just see.
If they are terrible again, then at that point you can unload the DJ contract, and then look at new QB's in the following seasons 2025-2026 without having to give away the farm for one of them.
Feel free to agree or disagree, but that is what I would do, curious your thoughts?
You've got my vote, as somewhere in there rings the tune, "Fix the damn line!"
Peace!
I think Jones has bad conditions around him, but I also think he's simply not good enough to build our future around. People can dance around this any way they want to, but the fact remains he was outplayed by the likes of Tyrod and DeVito with the same (or very similar) supporting cast. I'm not suggesting those last two were good, but with Jones earning many multiples more than both of them, it shouldn't have even been remotely close let alone Jones being the worst of the three, which he was. We are going into year six with this guy. I feel like we have seen enough. At least I have. With that said, we're stuck with him for this year, clearly, as nobody in their right mind would dream of taking him off our hands. So I'm fine with giving him yet another shot, if only because we don't have a choice.
I don't need to re-watch anything myself. I watch games pretty closely in real time. It was bad enough watching those games once. I have seen enough with Jones. I know he's not the long term answer. The injuries alone make that the case, but I have seen enough performance-wise to feel the way that I do. My mind won't be changed by watching those games again. It will be reinforced.
Quote from: jimc on February 19, 2024, 05:33:55 AMI'm on board.
Ah thanks for saying that, I'm glad we agree
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 19, 2024, 07:35:53 AMsxd: Good post, and I agree with all of it. Bob
Ah Bob, thank you so much, I'm also glad we agree, and please hang in there
Quote from: Philosophers on February 19, 2024, 07:55:55 AMYou nailed it. Great idea. I remember the Dallas game like it was yesterday. It got so bad I stopped watching the game and just kept my eyes on the right side of the OL. In so many instances, the 9 tech was not even getting touched as he came around the RT. Even when passes were made without a sack, he was coming in so often unchecked.
No QB will play well under those conditions. They may play slightly better than DJ but we need more than that. We need an offense that can protect the QB, then let him throw downfield.
I am onboard with taking a QB this year only if he is going to be a projected starter within the 1st year as we need a rookie contract to utilize, however, we absolutely need a a stud WR1 and more starting help on the OL especially the right side.
I keyed in on Neal the whole season when he played. His inability to block wide edge rushers is due to an inability to fire out at the snap count as oppose to a split second later and an inabiity to simply move faster and more efficiently. I am not sure that can be taught. I think it is time to move on from Neal. Trust me that is not easy for me to say as I was banging on the drum for this kid leading up to the draft and thought this year he'd make a leap. At a minimum, the Giants need to bring in competition for his spot, but that competition better be able to stop 9 tech edge rushers. If Neal beats him out, it's because he was fantastic, not because the competition was bad.
Quote from: Philosophers on February 19, 2024, 07:55:55 AMYou nailed it. Great idea. I remember the Dallas game like it was yesterday. It got so bad I stopped watching the game and just kept my eyes on the right side of the OL. In so many instances, the 9 tech was not even getting touched as he came around the RT. Even when passes were made without a sack, he was coming in so often unchecked.
No QB will play well under those conditions. They may play slightly better than DJ but we need more than that. We need an offense that can protect the QB, then let him throw downfield.
I am onboard with taking a QB this year only if he is going to be a projected starter within the 1st year as we need a rookie contract to utilize, however, we absolutely need a a stud WR1 and more starting help on the OL especially the right side.
I keyed in on Neal the whole season when he played. His inability to block wide edge rushers is due to an inability to fire out at the snap count as oppose to a split second later and an inabiity to simply move faster and more efficiently. I am not sure that can be taught. I think it is time to move on from Neal. Trust me that is not easy for me to say as I was banging on the drum for this kid leading up to the draft and thought this year he'd make a leap. At a minimum, the Giants need to bring in competition for his spot, but that competition better be able to stop 9 tech edge rushers. If Neal beats him out, it's because he was fantastic, not because the competition was bad.
Philosophers,
Thank you so much, and I am also happy we agree.
Everything you said was true, and the right side of the line was atrocious, and your points about Neal I concur.
Let's beef up the right side of that O line and then lets see what we got.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 19, 2024, 08:49:42 AMI think Jones has bad conditions around him, but I also think he's simply not good enough to build our future around. People can dance around this any way they want to, but the fact remains he was outplayed by the likes of Tyrod and DeVito with the same (or very similar) supporting cast. I'm not suggesting those last two were good, but with Jones earning many multiples more than both of them, it shouldn't have even been remotely close let alone Jones being the worst of the three, which he was. We are going into year six with this guy. I feel like we have seen enough. At least I have. With that said, we're stuck with him for this year, clearly, as nobody in their right mind would dream of taking him off our hands. So I'm fine with giving him yet another shot, if only because we don't have a choice.
I don't need to re-watch anything myself. I watch games pretty closely in real time. It was bad enough watching those games once. I have seen enough with Jones. I know he's not the long term answer. The injuries alone make that the case, but I have seen enough performance-wise to feel the way that I do. My mind won't be changed by watching those games again. It will be reinforced.
That isn't exactly a "fact"; in fact, it's not even effectively true.
CINO
@sjs0816
Tyrod & Devito had a completely different Offensive line.
I don't know why this is hard
DJs oline for majority of his games
LT: Ezuedu LG:Lemiex/Mayfield C:Bredeson RG:McKethan RT:Neal/Mayfield
Tyrod/Devito Oline
LT:Thomas LG:Pugh C:JMS RG:Bredeson RT:Phillips
These different lines led to very different times for pressure to appear and how often pressure appeared.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGZ5egFWgAEM0xf?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
https://x.com/sjs0816/status/1758581458032054504?s=20
Too many excuses for too long. Jones if healthy will play this year, but a plan must be put in place for 2025 without him. Otherwise it will be Groundhog Day all over again.
Quote from: katkavage on February 19, 2024, 10:10:07 AMToo many excuses for too long.
What exactly does that mean? Are you saying franchise QBs should be top 10 with the worst protection and mediocre receivers? If that is actually true, why even invest in the O-line? Why do NFL teams spend so much on true number-one WRs?
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 19, 2024, 10:15:51 AMWhat exactly does that mean? Are you saying franchise QBs should be top 10 with the worst protection and mediocre receivers? If that is actually true, why even invest in the O-line? Why do NFL teams spend so much on true number-one WRs?
It means at some point you got to show something. That's all. Rise above. Five years and still...the same old same old. And no this does not also excuse the pitiful OL play.
Quote from: kartanoman on February 19, 2024, 08:32:52 AMYou've got my vote, as somewhere in there rings the tune, "Fix the damn line!"
Peace!
Kart,
Thank you so much for agreeing with me, your words are very kind and I'm so glad we agree, fix that line!
This tells a different story:
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Two tenths of a second. Does it matter that much in the difference between Mahomes and Jones, Tua or Burrow? Time to pressure or sack for Taylor and Jones identical.
I guess it all depends on how you agree with it and the narrative you're pushing.
In 2022 Jones had only thrown 2 20 yards passes halfway through November. So no, a line is not going to change the way he plays at this point.
Also there is no qb coming out the next couple of years with any interest, so if you wait and Jones fails again then you would have passed on the opportunity to move forward as a franchise and instead continue to do the same broken thing.
So what we draft some more guys to wait 3 years to see if they pan out on the line, continuing to waste draft capital seems like madness to me... especially since we'll just keep losing in the meantime.
You can both draft a Qb and fix the line at the same time, it's not an either/or proposition.
I don't see why we wouldng draft our future Qb now, while there are actually really good qbs available in the draft and just get 2 guards and a swing in FA. There are a ton of really good tackles and guards in FA so why wouldn't we do that?
Schoen said the quarterback position would be addressed this offseason, so we are getting a guy regardless, why not have it be THE guy and finish the line once and for all in FA to hit the ground running and not have to suffer through Jones throwing 3 yard outs and having other teams make fun of him for another entire season.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 10:40:25 AMThis tells a different story:
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Two tenths of a second. Does it matter that much in the difference between Mahomes and Jones, Tua or Burrow? Time to pressure or sack for Taylor and Jones identical.
I guess it all depends on how you agree with it and the narrative you're pushing.
You need to look at both stats, both the time to pressure and the percent pressure
A think D Jones is ruined
During the 49ers game
He looked rattled wihtout that much pressure on him
I dont blame him but he threw it a little.sooner than he had to
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 10:40:25 AMThis tells a different story:
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-qb.php
Two tenths of a second. Does it matter that much in the difference between Mahomes and Jones, Tua or Burrow? Time to pressure or sack for Taylor and Jones identical.
I guess it all depends on how you agree with it and the narrative you're pushing.
Ed: I understand, but switch Kelce w/either of our TE's & then we can make comparisons between Mahomes & Jones.
It's always a combination of a lot of factors, as you know, and the Giants just don't have a spark plug.
But even with a spark plug, the OL performance to start last year would have negated a spark plug.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 19, 2024, 10:49:54 AMYou need to look at both stats, both the time to pressure and the percent pressure
From the stats off of the same site.
I admire your courage to watch those games again, sxd, but I remember them well without having to re-watch them. They were totally unprepared to start the season in pretty much every aspect of the game. The coaches did a miserable job early on. The offensive line, after Thomas got hurt, was as bad as it gets. And the QB did nothing to rise above the fray. All these things are true. The GM needs to fix the line and the QB position. If you think a middling QB will suddenly become elite or even franchise status with better line play is being naive. He might return to middling form which is better than what was seen last year, but middling won't cut it. They Giants have to do better.
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 19, 2024, 11:37:22 AMEd: I understand, but switch Kelce w/either of our TE's & then we can make comparisons between Mahomes & Jones.
It's always a combination of a lot of factors, as you know, and the Giants just don't have a spark plug.
But even with a spark plug, the OL performance to start last year would have negated a spark plug.
Bob
Bob, you have to look at the entire picture, so to that point I agree but, Kelce performs because Mahomes performs. The KC Offense moves the ball also due to scheme and protections. We have to put Daboll and Kafka in the equations also, compared to Reid. So many times Jalin Hyatt was open and he never got the ball by all three QB's. I wonder how Slayton would have faired on KC. Likely a 1000 yard Receiver. See the stats I produced to Rich.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 19, 2024, 10:08:40 AMThat isn't exactly a "fact"; in fact, it's not even effectively true.
CINO
@sjs0816
Tyrod & Devito had a completely different Offensive line.
I don't know why this is hard
DJs oline for majority of his games
LT: Ezuedu LG:Lemiex/Mayfield C:Bredeson RG:McKethan RT:Neal/Mayfield
Tyrod/Devito Oline
LT:Thomas LG:Pugh C:JMS RG:Bredeson RT:Phillips
These different lines led to very different times for pressure to appear and how often pressure appeared.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGZ5egFWgAEM0xf?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
https://x.com/sjs0816/status/1758581458032054504?s=20
Mighty,
This is an excellent stat, thank you for sharing.
I'd also add the competition DJ faced in the first 5 games was intense compared to Tyrod and Devito.
49ers - super bowl appearance
Cowboys - playoff team
Dolphins- playoff team
Seahawks- Tough team
That has to factor into also why he was pressured so much, going up against two of the top five defenses doesn't help.
Sometimes it is more than just stats. Jones has been here 5 years now and he will be here for one more. In the time he has been here, has he really ever looked like a QB we can go all the way with? He has had some decent games and a good rookie season, but ever since then, we have read posts like this over and over. I am not saying they aren't without merit, but it is looking at a fraction of Jones's career and not the entire full length of it. QWe have heard all the excuses, no OL, no WRs no good OC, but the fact is Jones has underperformed for several coaches, some of whom have the quality of QB guru. Again, I am not saying Jones cannot be productive with a KC OL, I think any QB can, even our scrubs, but the fact is Jones is a neck injury away from retiring and is coming off a devastating injury (especially for a QB who needs to use his legs).
What is wrong with drafting another QB and letting things play out? We have seen other teams who have a decent QB in place, still go out and draft another. Look at the Eagles, they had what they felt were 2 decent enough QBs, and yet when Hurts was available, they scooped him up.
Again, you make some good points, but we may never be in the position again to get a decent enough young QB, Jones still has the same faults he always ahs had, staring down his main WR, even through coach after coach. That will never change. Yes a #1 WR will help, but isn't that putting the cart before the horse?
Dave,
With you on DJ all the way. Some of the logic for him is like putting lipstick on a pig. And that pork pie we have to pass on.
:happy:
Quote from: LennG on February 19, 2024, 02:02:58 PMSometimes it is more than just stats. Jones has been here 5 years now and he will be here for one more. In the time he has been here, has he really ever looked like a QB we can go all the way with? He has had some decent games and a good rookie season, but ever since then, we have read posts like this over and over. I am not saying they aren't without merit, but it is looking at a fraction of Jones's career and not the entire full length of it. QWe have heard all the excuses, no OL, no WRs no good OC, but the fact is Jones has underperformed for several coaches, some of whom have the quality of QB guru. Again, I am not saying Jones cannot be productive with a KC OL, I think any QB can, even our scrubs, but the fact is Jones is a neck injury away from retiring and is coming off a devastating injury (especially for a QB who needs to use his legs).
What is wrong with drafting another QB and letting things play out? We have seen other teams who have a decent QB in place, still go out and draft another. Look at the Eagles, they had what they felt were 2 decent enough QBs, and yet when Hurts was available, they scooped him up.
Again, you make some good points, but we may never be in the position again to get a decent enough young QB, Jones still has the same faults he always ahs had, staring down his main WR, even through coach after coach. That will never change. Yes a #1 WR will help, but isn't that putting the cart before the horse?
This right here. A lot want to think if we give Jones everything he can be effective but why do that after the super bowl we just watched.
Purdy a game manager but significantly better than Jones had the best RB in football, 2 elite Wrs, the #2 TE in football, best FB in football, and #2 defense in football and couldn't stop an elite Qb from winning.
Answer get an elite qb, keep drafting them until you do because that's all that matters in today's game.
Jalen Mayfield alone is enough to give D Jones some consideration. 0.0 pass-blocking grade vs. Miami.
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 05:54:07 AMYour point is finding a multitude of excuses for why Jones didn't play like a competent decent QB? Tyrod outplayed him (barely) at a much less contract.
Jones is the 6th highest paid cap space player next season and has done absolutely nothing to even come close to his bonuses. What is your point?
The sooner we get rid of him, the sooner we get to a team with winning culture.
Whether you view the thread as explanation or merely an excuse, as apparently you do, it does reflect an obvious and egregious lack of support for a Giants QB having to perform behind a grossly inadequate Oline for the almost all of the past dozen years. That is not to suggest that Daniel Jones has the skill and inherent ability to be a "winning" Quarterback because as frustrating as it may be his future capability is now upon us to be settled, finally
That is a fact which perhaps was made opaque last year by what may have been poor pre- and early season preparation by Brian Daboll & Co., and then certainly by Jones's injury. But it is now made crystal clear through the exigency of current and future costs.
As a Giants fan, I can only guess what is meant by reference to "winning culture" but where this team is concerned, I can't think of anyone who works harder in the interest of positive team culture than does Daniel Jones.
I'm sure it won't surprise anyone that I gave the originating thread a "like" in endorsing the proposal that the Giants give first and foremost priority to X- Receiver and the Oline in the Draft, if not also in FA.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on February 19, 2024, 03:45:18 PMWhether you view the thread as explanation or merely an excuse, as apparently you do, it does reflect an obvious and egregious lack of support for a Giants QB having to perform behind a grossly inadequate Oline for the almost all of the past dozen years. That is not to suggest that Daniel Jones has the skill and inherent ability to be a "winning" Quarterback because as frustrating as it may be his future capability is now upon us to be settled, finally
That is a fact which perhaps was made opaque last year by what may have been poor pre- and early season preparation by Brian Daboll & Co., and then certainly by Jones's injury. But it is now made crystal clear through the exigency of current and future costs.
As a Giants fan, I can only guess what is meant by reference to "winning culture" but where this team is concerned, I can't think of anyone who works harder in the interest of positive team culture than does Daniel Jones.
I'm sure it won't surprise anyone that I gave the originating thread a "like" in endorsing the proposal that the Giants give first and foremost priority to X- Receiver and the Oline in the Draft, if not also in FA.
Cheers!
No team has spent more on Oline than the Giants in the drafts in the past 5 or so years.
You can give all the excuses you want, when you are the 6th highest paid player in the NFL salary cap wise (ahead of Josh Allen) you need to elevate those around you, not have a perfect situation where you can play "normal" or ok.
I don't blame Jones for taking the outrageous deal he was offered, it lies on Scohen who should have at worst matched whatever offer someone gave him in FA. This deal alone should and may get him fired for incompetence.
The "it's been 5 years he's had plenty of time to show something" isn't based on anything logical, and doesn't refute the simple point that you can't do anything in the NFL with a combination of bad OL and bottom-tier skill players.
And BTW - he's shown something. Did you miss the part where he got a $90M contract? Or is that being dismissed as fans on a message board are smarter than the GM?
I think we all agree the OL has been awful his entire career here so I won't spend time on that.
His #1 targets since he's been here?
*Golden Tate
*Darius Slayton
*Evan Engram
*Kenny Golladay
*Kadarius Toney
*Darren Waller on a bad hamstring
Yeah - it's been 5 years. And he's had a bad supporting cast the entire time. So refer back to the simple statement:
Bad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 19, 2024, 12:40:22 PMMighty,
This is an excellent stat, thank you for sharing.
I'd also add the competition DJ faced in the first 5 games was intense compared to Tyrod and Devito.
49ers - super bowl appearance
Cowboys - playoff team
Dolphins- playoff team
Seahawks- Tough team
That has to factor into also why he was pressured so much, going up against two of the top five defenses doesn't help.
Really good post, SDK; more to the point, you articulated your position well. However, last season you weren't interested in discussing the quality of the opponents, as a viable reason for DJs average/to above-average 2022 season; however, this season you view it as viable data point to explain DJ's poor performance? To Eds point, summerly considering and disregarding data points based on a specific narrative usually leads to inaccurate observations. That's my only suggestion; just be consistent with the data you value.
I actually believe the quality of opponents matters and helps explain why DJ started strong in 2022 and poorly in 2023. To suggest it only impacted the latter and not the former compromises the poster's objectivity.
While your overall point is extremely logical, as others have stated, it tends to view 2023 in a vacuum. Next years QB class is incredibly weak; if the Giants fail to acquire a QB this season, we're unlikely to get one until 2026. That's 2-to-3 years of more of the same...no thank you! Also, your plan doesn't tangibly address the Defense, which also produced a bottom 5 performance and once again failed to stop the run.
As far as DJ's 'protentional', that ship has sailed...it's been 60 games. There's not a single example of a QB significantly improving after 60 games for the last four decades; yet, we continue to discuss it as a common occurrence. If you believe the Giants terrible offense line ruined his career, so be it; I won't argue that point with you. I tend to think he wasn't anything special to begin with. We'll just agree to disagree on that point.
Again, excellent post, SDX.
Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 04:19:02 PMBad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.
Here's my issues with your perspective; the VERY same posters making this point today, we're predicting a double-digit win season just 6-months ago and discussing the potency of the Giant's offense. However, to explain yet another poor season from DJ, everyone around DJ stinks again. Do you see any issues with type of oscillation, as it relates to discussing DJ?
Overall your point has merit; yes, a QB is dependent on the OL and skilled-players. However, even without them, you can still see brilliance; in 60 games, I have never seen anything from DJ that led me to believe he's a top 10 QB.
Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 04:19:02 PMThe "it's been 5 years he's had plenty of time to show something" isn't based on anything logical, and doesn't refute the simple point that you can't do anything in the NFL with a combination of bad OL and bottom-tier skill players.
And BTW - he's shown something. Did you miss the part where he got a $90M contract? Or is that being dismissed as fans on a message board are smarter than the GM?
I think we all agree the OL has been awful his entire career here so I won't spend time on that.
His #1 targets since he's been here?
*Golden Tate
*Darius Slayton
*Evan Engram
*Kenny Golladay
*Kadarius Toney
*Darren Waller on a bad hamstring
Yeah - it's been 5 years. And he's had a bad supporting cast the entire time. So refer back to the simple statement:
Bad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.
When did he show something? Are you referring to the 3200 yard year with a bottom 3rd offense.
The same skills Tyrod had no issue connecting with?
Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 04:19:02 PMThe "it's been 5 years he's had plenty of time to show something" isn't based on anything logical, and doesn't refute the simple point that you can't do anything in the NFL with a combination of bad OL and bottom-tier skill players.
And BTW - he's shown something. Did you miss the part where he got a $90M contract? Or is that being dismissed as fans on a message board are smarter than the GM?
I think we all agree the OL has been awful his entire career here so I won't spend time on that.
His #1 targets since he's been here?
*Golden Tate
*Darius Slayton
*Evan Engram
*Kenny Golladay
*Kadarius Toney
*Darren Waller on a bad hamstring
Yeah - it's been 5 years. And he's had a bad supporting cast the entire time. So refer back to the simple statement:
Bad OL + bad skills = hopeless situation for an NFL QB. When has he ever not had that? People can throw shade on him and cry all they want, that's why they were wrong about the contract he eventually got and why they're still confused, now.
Nice post. The WR list adds a little context to the lack of supporting cast Jones has had.
king/clayton: I respect you guys, but he showed enough to convince real football people he was worth a $90M guaranteed contract. Those are the facts, the rest is just your opinion.
And yes, king - I thought they were going to have a good year. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thought. The facts are, the OL was worse than ever & the skill players didn't pan out. (And no, it wasn't DJ's fault that they didn't.) Waller was forked with the hamstring, Parris Campbell was God Awful and Hyatt was sushi. Barkley got hurt week 2. Slayton is JAG. By the time Wan'dale got back DJ was long gone.
DJ got $90M from an NFL GM and the skill players and OL were subpar last year, as they have been every year of DJ's career. Those are the facts. The rest is just fan BS.
Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 05:36:22 PMking/clayton: I respect you guys, but he showed enough to convince real football people he was worth a $90M guaranteed contract. Those are the facts, the rest is just your opinion.
And yes, king - I thought they were going to have a good year. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thought. The facts are, the OL was worse than ever & the skill players didn't pan out. (And no, it wasn't DJ's fault that they didn't.) Waller was forked with the hamstring, Parris Campbell was God Awful and Hyatt was sushi. Barkley got hurt week 2. Slayton is JAG. By the time Wan'dale got back DJ was long gone.
DJ got $90M from an NFL GM and the skill players and OL were subpar last year, as they have been every year of DJ's career. Those are the facts. The rest is just fan BS.
If you recall from last season, I had zero problem with DJ's contract as there were no other viable options; however, you seem to be missing a key aspect of said contract. Specifically, the 2-year escape clause, which is completely antithetical to franchise QB deals. Compare DJ's deal to Hurts, Jackson, Herbert, Barrow, Allen, or any other franchise deal within the last 2-seasons. The fact is, the professional GM was obviously concerned about DJ's ability to function as a franchise QB; hence, the escape clause, which completely torpedo's your argument. In fact, you're proving the point. It's because the clause the Giants can draft a QB this season. Does that seem like the GM was confident in DJ's abilities?
Finally, I believe most fans could do a better job than DG. Do you? It's hard to do worse; to that end, there are plenty of times when fans are smarter than GMs. After all, what great cognitive ability or education does it take to be a GM? This isn't theoretical physics...
Quote from: 4 Aces on February 19, 2024, 05:36:22 PMking/clayton: I respect you guys, but he showed enough to convince real football people he was worth a $90M guaranteed contract. Those are the facts, the rest is just your opinion.
And yes, king - I thought they were going to have a good year. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thought. The facts are, the OL was worse than ever & the skill players didn't pan out. (And no, it wasn't DJ's fault that they didn't.) Waller was forked with the hamstring, Parris Campbell was God Awful and Hyatt was sushi. Barkley got hurt week 2. Slayton is JAG. By the time Wan'dale got back DJ was long gone.
DJ got $90M from an NFL GM and the skill players and OL were subpar last year, as they have been every year of DJ's career. Those are the facts. The rest is just fan BS.
"real football people"? WTF? So anyone who gets an absolutely horrible contract "deserves it" just because? Guess Deshaun Watson deserves that contract he has because "real football people" decided he did..
As usual it's everyone else's fault but Jones's whenever things go wrong.
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 05:54:07 AMYour point is finding a multitude of excuses for why Jones didn't play like a competent decent QB? Tyrod outplayed him (barely) at a much less contract.
Jones is the 6th highest paid cap space player next season and has done absolutely nothing to even come close to his bonuses. What is your point?
The sooner we get rid of him, the sooner we get to a team with winning culture.
I dont think hes making a load of excuses
He stated he re-watched the first 6 games of the season ... he may have had a bias in his "research" I guess you can say. But what he may be saying may actually be true and I am actually pretty sure it is true the O-line was historically bad. Also like he said Tyrod could not muster up a TD vs the Bills and essentially cost the game , and with the Commanders game I remember him started off very nicely but then faded rather quickly and the defense held on
Of those games DJ did face 3 top 5 defenses.
I am also ready to move on even as a DJ fan
BUT
I also do not believe in giving up the farm for a chance of the pick being a bust. Which is actually a high chance , #6 is really the most "awkward" position the Giants could have landed. Also what he said is true we can unload DJ after next season thankfully due to his contract. We are not going to get the top 34 QB's and yes you may be able to reach for McCarthy but WHY ?? If DJ truly is a bust we will end up as bad or worst next season maybe get a higher pick which we can then get a QB to ADD to the weapons we draft this season whether that be a WR , EDGE , DT idk
And yes I know the QB draft supposedly isnt as good. But that can always change in the flash of an eye and what difference does it really make if we are thinking about reaching for a QB anyways
Quote from: katkavage on February 19, 2024, 10:10:07 AMToo many excuses for too long. Jones if healthy will play this year, but a plan must be put in place for 2025 without him. Otherwise it will be Groundhog Day all over again.
Is it really an excuse ? Im pretty sure almost all of us agree this is a make or break season. It couldve been the end but Giants missed out on a top 5 pick
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 03:58:03 PMNo team has spent more on Oline than the Giants in the drafts in the past 5 or so years.
You can give all the excuses you want, when you are the 6th highest paid player in the NFL salary cap wise (ahead of Josh Allen) you need to elevate those around you, not have a perfect situation where you can play "normal" or ok.
I don't blame Jones for taking the outrageous deal he was offered, it lies on Scohen who should have at worst matched whatever offer someone gave him in FA. This deal alone should and may get him fired for incompetence.
Josh Allen is OBVIOUSLY a better QB then Jones
but lets be real here
Allen has had a higher turnover or riskier playmaking these last 2 seasons
If he were to play behind this O-line I could see someone like Allen having one of those 25td but 23 interceptions seasons
Quote from: killarich on February 19, 2024, 06:17:53 PMJosh Allen is OBVIOUSLY a better QB then Jones
but lets be real here
Allen has had a higher turnover or riskier playmaking these last 2 seasons
If he were to play behind this O-line I could see someone like Allen having one of those 25td but 23 interceptions seasons
maybe but we'd also have 8-9 wins guaranteed with Allen. How many 1 score games we lose this year?
Quote from: killarich on February 19, 2024, 06:10:47 PMI dont think hes making a load of excuses
He stated he re-watched the first 6 games of the season ... he may have had a bias in his "research" I guess you can say. But what he may be saying may actually be true and I am actually pretty sure it is true the O-line was historically bad. Also like he said Tyrod could not muster up a TD vs the Bills and essentially cost the game , and with the Commanders game I remember him started off very nicely but then faded rather quickly and the defense held on
Of those games DJ did face 3 top 5 defenses.
I am also ready to move on even as a DJ fan
BUT
I also do not believe in giving up the farm for a chance of the pick being a bust. Which is actually a high chance , #6 is really the most "awkward" position the Giants could have landed. Also what he said is true we can unload DJ after next season thankfully due to his contract. We are not going to get the top 34 QB's and yes you may be able to reach for McCarthy but WHY ?? If DJ truly is a bust we will end up as bad or worst next season maybe get a higher pick which we can then get a QB to ADD to the weapons we draft this season whether that be a WR , EDGE , DT idk
And yes I know the QB draft supposedly isnt as good. But that can always change in the flash of an eye and what difference does it really make if we are thinking about reaching for a QB anyways
I would sell the farm to move up. By that I mean first and seconds both years to get Maye or Daniels. We get a QB we have them for 10+ years, and if Daboll finds someone he likes I trust it
The top qb next year may not even be the best qb of this class or close.. this is a once in a. Decade chance to finally right this ship
And no I hate JJ too
What was sick about that opening game against Dallas, was that there was all this hope and enthusiasm as the first drive of the game saw the Giants moving the ball with ease, driven off of Barkley and Jones legs. Third and two at the Dallas 8 yard line and then the Football gods smite the Giants. A false start and then a bad snap and it's time to bring on the FG Unit. And then the killer. A blocked punt returned for a TD.
I remember thinking, this season isn't going to go the way it did last year.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 07:10:49 PMWhat was sick about that opening game against Dallas, was that there was all this hope and enthusiasm as the first drive of the game saw the Giants moving the ball with ease, driven off of Barkley and Jones legs. Third and two at the Dallas 8 yard line and then the Football gods smite the Giants. A false start and then a bad snap and it's time to bring on the FG Unit. And then the killer. A blocked punt returned for a TD.
I remember thinking, this season isn't going to go the way it did last year.
Dallas drives for a FG and then Jones completes a pass to Barkley who takes a bit, coughs up the ball, popping it up for a pick 6 and just like that, it's 16-0. Can't make this s#it up.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 07:17:23 PMDallas drives for a FG and then Jones completes a pass to Barkley who takes a bit, coughs up the ball, popping it up for a pick 6 and just like that, it's 16-0. Can't make this s#it up.
DJ rolls to the sideline and throws an interception, the a near interception and a missed FG. Then a dropped pass, DJ not seeing his checkdowns taking sacks and yada yada yada, it's 26-0 at halftime.
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
All of the legitimate issues around the lack of support for Jones are indeed valid. Despite those issues, Jones is not the quarterback this franchise needs. The offensive line, the receivers, the play calling, the myriad of coordinators and offensive systems, the injuries... every imaginable reason for him to not live up to his potential are just masking the reality that the Giants are indeed mired in QB hell.
Did we not have a SB qb who had something left in the tank retire? I bet it had something to do with seeing no end to getting beat up behind the o line.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 07:32:45 PMDJ rolls to the sideline and throws an interception, the a near interception and a missed FG. Then a dropped pass, DJ not seeing his checkdowns taking sacks and yada yada yada, it's 26-0 at halftime.
The rest of this game was more mistakes and fumbles that broke for Dallas and their pass rush dominating the Giants O line killing DJ although there were times Jones would roll right to avoid pressure instead of stepping up in the pocket. Daboll and Kafka had no plan to offset that rush trailing by five scores. This was a total team loss. Loss of momentum and a head killer to start the season.
Quote from: jimc on February 19, 2024, 07:56:56 PMDid we not have a SB qb who had something left in the tank retire? I bet it had something to do with seeing no end to getting beat up behind the o line.
Or...it could be he was 37 and past the age of organic decline for most QBs of his era; Brady, and to the lesser extend Brees, created an unrealistic expectation that QBs can play at high-levels into thier 40s. The reality is, most decline in the thier mid-30s. Consider the QBs selected in Eli's draft class: Big Ben and Rivers both began steep declines at at, or before 37 years old. For recent examples, see Russel Wilson and AAron Rodgers.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 07:10:49 PMWhat was sick about that opening game against Dallas, was that there was all this hope and enthusiasm as the first drive of the game saw the Giants moving the ball with ease, driven off of Barkley and Jones legs. Third and two at the Dallas 8 yard line and then the Football gods smite the Giants. A false start and then a bad snap and it's time to bring on the FG Unit. And then the killer. A blocked punt returned for a TD.
I remember thinking, this season isn't going to go the way it did last year.
Ed and to all,
I've noticed that you watched the Dallas game again just like I did, so this may be of some interest to you.
Here are the highlights of the Seahawks game from week 4, and I wanted you and anyone else who may be interested to see three of the sacks DJ takes in that game, so they can see the pressure he was under.
The time stamps to see them are at the 1:50 mark, 2:41 mark, and finally 7:07 mark.
He was sacked a total of six times in that game, let me know what you think? and if the O line bears any responsibility for his performance?
Video down below
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 19, 2024, 09:41:55 PMEd and to all,
I've noticed that you watched the Dallas game again just like I did, so this may be of some interest to you.
Here are the highlights of the Seahawks game from week 4, and I wanted you and anyone else who may be interested to see three of the sacks DJ takes in that game, so they can see the pressure he was under.
The time stamps to see them are at the 1:50 mark, 2:41 mark, and finally 7:07 mark.
He was sacked a total of six times in that game, let me know what you think? and if the O line bears any responsibility for his performance?
Video down below
DJ was sacked 11, not 6 times in the week 4 Seattle game; in fact, most pundits made the opposite point you're making here. While you're highlighting 3 sacks, there were 8 others to consider. BBH own post game discussion mimicked the pundits, where we surmised DJ was responsible for at least 6 sacks in that game. If memory recalls, Ed provided a pretty in-depth analysis of the game, which you can probably find. It was really good...
"A number of those sacks were on him," Esiason said on WFAN on Tuesday. "They're not all on the offensive line. He has to react accordingly when those blitzes start happening and guys come free. That's the troubling part for me."
"Dan Orlovsky claims only 4/11 sacks against the Seahawks were on the Giants OL and breaks down Daniel Jones' QB mistakes"
The Seattle game precisely highlight DJ's biggest fallacies; he doesn't read the field well, nor is he capable of making anticipatory throws through tight windows. To be clear, I'm not suggesting his line is even adequate; I also believe his play will improve when/if surrounded by more skilled players. However, even with an average-to-above-average OL, the data suggest his ceiling is average to slightly-above-average QB. It's hard to be a top 10 passing QB with his limitations.
Do you believe there's a symbiotic relationship between the line and QB? If the latter fails to read blitzes, panics, make quick decisions or anticipatory throws, it can make the offensive line look worse than it is. That's the real story from the game you highlighted...
speaking of which
Worst quarterbacks in terms of allowing pressures to be converted into sacks in 2023 (PFF)
1. Tommy DeVito (37% of pressures turned into sacks)
2. Daniel Jones (32%)
3. Ryan Tannehill (30%)
4. Bryce Young (25%)
5. Zach Wilson (24%)
So DJ was responsible for nearly 1 in 3 of his sacks. Awful. Worst contract in Giants histroy.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 19, 2024, 09:41:55 PMEd and to all,
I've noticed that you watched the Dallas game again just like I did, so this may be of some interest to you.
Here are the highlights of the Seahawks game from week 4, and I wanted you and anyone else who may be interested to see three of the sacks DJ takes in that game, so they can see the pressure he was under.
The time stamps to see them are at the 1:50 mark, 2:41 mark, and finally 7:07 mark.
He was sacked a total of six times in that game, let me know what you think? and if the O line bears any responsibility for his performance?
Video down below
The first sack it was 5 on 5 as the TE was not blocking but going out and the RB was going for a swing pass as he was set right side too but that edge had to cover him. It was clear that in Zone the Safety didn't hide he was blitzing pre-Snap. Jones should have moved the RB and it looks like it was Breda to the left side to pick him up and then hit the hot read vacated in the coverage. At that point the TE should have stayed in to block. There was 17 seconds on the clock so there was plenty of time. DJ never saw it coming but was fixed on the Swing Pass and the TE on the right side. This was all DJ's credit for the sack.
Until Daniel Jones learns to look off a defender in the secondary he will be nothing more than mediocre.
Although people on BBH have disagreed in the past and stated it was an over rated and somewhat unnecessary skill in order to succeed, it was highlighted over and over in this years playoff and championship games - especially with regards to Mahomes.
Jones is the ABSOLUTE WORST in the NFL at locking on a receiver. If he refuses to work on this then he will be much of the same. My frustration is that we rarely if ever see him even dropping back in practice throws and attempt to develop good habits. Maybe it is coaching?....which would open an entire new can of worms
On the second sack, the QB needs to be know the blocking scheme, which I'm sure he did in a Jumbo Formation with two Tackles in the right side all blocking Zone Left. Nobody was blocking the free release on that right side and he never picked up on it. Not only that but trying to get escape he held the ball like a loaf of bread which resulted in a strip and a turnover.
Finally, DJ had a choice between WDR and Breda and he didn't pull the trigger. Robinson needed to make a cleaner cut inside but it was one Defender on two. The Mike came in to cover WDR when DJ hesitated as he gave up on Waller, who was then open but DJ was fixed on that right side so he passed him off to the high Safety. Again on DJ. He had options and panicked.
the bottom line is these type of discussions and debates should be happening for a ROOKIE or second year player, not a player going into year 6 making as the 6th highest paid player in the league. I say this sincerely but how does Jones still have any supporters left? Because he is a "Good guy" and "works hard"?
Quote from: kingm56 on February 19, 2024, 10:17:13 PMDJ was sacked 11 times in the week 4 Seattle game; in fact, most pundits made the exact opposite point you're making here. While you're highlighting 3 sacks, there were 8 others to consider. BBH own post game discussion mimicked the pundits, where we surmised DJ was responsible for at least 6 sacks in that game.
"A number of those sacks were on him," Esiason said on WFAN on Tuesday. "They're not all on the offensive line. He has to react accordingly when those blitzes start happening and guys come free. That's the troubling part for me."
"Dan Orlovsky claims only 4/11 sacks against the Seahawks were on the Giants OL and breaks down Daniel Jones' QB mistakes"
The Seattle game precisely highlight DJ's biggest fallacies; he doesn't read the field well, nor is he capable of making anticipatory throws through tight windows. To be clear, I'm not suggesting his line is even adequate; I also believe his play will improve when/if surrounded by more skilled players. However, even with an average-to-above-average OL, the data suggest his ceiling is an average-to-slightly above average QB. It's hard to be a top 10 passing QB with his limitations.
Do you agree with the pundits?
Actually, this is incorrect and here is why.
A) DJ was not sacked 11 times but 10 times in that game, one of those sacks was on Paris Campbell.
B) Second, using pundits like Dan Orlovsky and Boomer Esiason, is not doing your own research to see if these things are true. This is what is known as the "appeal to authority" and this is a logical fallacy. Just because a former player says something doesn't make it true.
And this is why I completely disagree with your statements, with regards to this game, and now I shall explain why.
You see I watched the game, the entire game, and I saw all 10 sacks and how they were attributed. Would you like to know how they came about? and the truth? Outside of one sack the other nine were all on the offensive line, and it was brutal.
Let me further elucidate.
Since you like to use pundits, I will now quote from the announcers who were actually at the game - Troy Aikman and Joe Buck -
Troy Aikman said from the opening snap that "his offensive line has struggled through three games", do you agree with him or no?
Joe Buck said in the 3rd quarter after DJ had been sacked six times, he said "There is just no time for Jones".
Joe Buck says again, "as he's ready to throw he's got 3 players in his face".
4th Quarter he's sacked for the 7th time, and Joe Buck says again, "there is just no chance for Daniel Jones."
4th Quarter again, Joe Buck says, "Jones has absolutely no time" as he's sacked for the 8th time.
OT Ezudu was run right by the DE, then Aikman says that is eight sacks on the night, this is crazy. Neither Buck nor Aikman blamed Jones, they defended him, saying he is one tough dude, and realized his O line was absolute garbage.
As Jones was sacked for the 9th time in the 4th quarter, he has absolutely no time.
Aikman begins to say "why is DJ still in the ball game?"
On his 10th sack he has absolutely no time, LT was beat again like a drum.
On his 11th sack the LT was beat badly again, keep in mind Andrew Thomas was not the starting LT.
So, since you like to quote pundits, were Aikman and Buck lying? or were they telling the truth? Please tell us all?
So once again if you want to prove me wrong, then you can go ahead and buy NFL Premium Plus like I have, and you can watch the condensed game in just 30 minutes. I did, so go ahead and do it, and show me and all of us why I am wrong?
I'll wait....
so just for record
@sxdxca38 , you are saying PFF is WRONG and in fact Daniel Jones is not the 2nd worst QB in the NFL at picking up pressures? I would bet PFF did not record 10 of 11 of the Jones sacks that game as the Olines fault. Just a hunch. I guess you know more than PFF, and we are all just appealing to authority.
https://twitter.com/Ihartitz/status/1757465944824193328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1757465944824193328%7Ctwgr%5E30742007569c47df21f2d76958281c7245ee50b7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fgiantsfans.net%2Fmessage_board%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D69114.0
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 19, 2024, 11:14:35 PMActually, this is incorrect and here is why.
A) DJ was not sacked 11 times but 10 times in that game, one of those sacks was on Paris Campbell.
B) Second, using pundits like Dan Orlovsky and Boomer Esiason, is not doing your own research to see if these things are true. This is what is known as the "appeal to authority" and this is a logical fallacy. Just because a former player says something doesn't make it true.
And this is why I completely disagree with your statements, with regards to this game, and now I shall explain why.
You see I watched the game, the entire game, and I saw all 10 sacks and how they were attributed. Would you like to know how they came about? and the truth? Outside of one sack the other nine were all on the offensive line, and it was brutal.
Let me further elucidate.
Since you like to use pundits, I will now quote from the announcers who were actually at the game - Troy Aikman and Joe Buck -
Troy Aikman said from the opening snap that "his offensive line has struggled through three games", do you agree with him or no?
Joe Buck said in the 3rd quarter after DJ had been sacked six times, he said "There is just no time for Jones".
Joe Buck says again, "as he's ready to throw he's got 3 players in his face".
4th Quarter he's sacked for the 7th time, and Joe Buck says again, "there is just no chance for Daniel Jones."
4th Quarter again, Joe Buck says, "Jones has absolutely no time" as he's sacked for the 8th time.
OT Ezudu was run right by the DE, then Aikman says that is eight sacks on the night, this is crazy. Neither Buck nor Aikman blamed Jones, they defended him, saying he is one tough dude, and realized his O line was absolute garbage.
As Jones was sacked for the 9th time in the 4th quarter, he has absolutely no time.
Aikman begins to say "why is DJ still in the ball game?"
On his 10th sack he has absolutely no time, LT was beat again like a drum.
On his 11th sack the LT was beat badly again, keep in mind Andrew Thomas was not the starting LT.
So, since you like to quote pundits, were Aikman and Buck lying? or were they telling the truth? Please tell us all?
So once again if you want to prove me wrong, then you can go ahead and buy NFL Premium Plus like I have, and you can watch the condensed game in just 30 minutes. I did, so go ahead and do it, and show me and all of us why I am wrong?
I'll wait....
I did my own research and provided input at the appropriate time, back in October. You're more than welcome to find that thread. I see NO reason to go back and rehash a game that occurred 6 months ago. Ed was kind enough to provide exerts for you; hopefully that type of in-depth analysis will allow you to view this game from an alternate/more informed perspective. I know it helped me back in Oct...
Concerning Aikman and Buck, they were watching the game live; you get an entirely different perspective after watching the tape. Do you agree with that notion? Obviously you do as you bought a package to afford you the privilege. I already own the All-22 package; in fact, if you go back to September, you'll note I was encouraging everyone with disposable income to do the same. It's worth every dime.
My goal is not to prove you wrong (with the exception of correcting the record on 6 sacks allowed); In short, I simply don't agree with a lot of your opinions and do my best to provide cogent counterpoints. Isn't that the point of an internet discussion board? This game is no exception; I simply can't fathom how anyone who watched the All-22 tape came away without severe concerns for the starting QB. When I watched the tape, I was far more concerned about DJ's aforementioned limitations than the bad Oline. I simply don't believe I can add anymore to the discussion than was already provided back in Oct and Ed in this thread. I happen to agree with the latter's assessment and fundamentally disagree with your assertion that DJ is the victim of the offensive line; again, there's a symbiotic relationship between the OL and QB. I also know there's no data I can show, or analysis that will change your mind. You believe DJ is a top 10 QB, who's held back by a poor OL, coaching, and skilled players. I simply disagree with that notion. We can leave it at that...
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 19, 2024, 11:14:35 PMActually, this is incorrect and here is why.
A) DJ was not sacked 11 times but 10 times in that game, one of those sacks was on Paris Campbell.
B) Second, using pundits like Dan Orlovsky and Boomer Esiason, is not doing your own research to see if these things are true. This is what is known as the "appeal to authority" and this is a logical fallacy. Just because a former player says something doesn't make it true.
And this is why I completely disagree with your statements, with regards to this game, and now I shall explain why.
You see I watched the game, the entire game, and I saw all 10 sacks and how they were attributed. Would you like to know how they came about? and the truth? Outside of one sack the other nine were all on the offensive line, and it was brutal.
Let me further elucidate.
Since you like to use pundits, I will now quote from the announcers who were actually at the game - Troy Aikman and Joe Buck -
Troy Aikman said from the opening snap that "his offensive line has struggled through three games", do you agree with him or no?
Joe Buck said in the 3rd quarter after DJ had been sacked six times, he said "There is just no time for Jones".
Joe Buck says again, "as he's ready to throw he's got 3 players in his face".
4th Quarter he's sacked for the 7th time, and Joe Buck says again, "there is just no chance for Daniel Jones."
4th Quarter again, Joe Buck says, "Jones has absolutely no time" as he's sacked for the 8th time.
OT Ezudu was run right by the DE, then Aikman says that is eight sacks on the night, this is crazy. Neither Buck nor Aikman blamed Jones, they defended him, saying he is one tough dude, and realized his O line was absolute garbage.
As Jones was sacked for the 9th time in the 4th quarter, he has absolutely no time.
Aikman begins to say "why is DJ still in the ball game?"
On his 10th sack he has absolutely no time, LT was beat again like a drum.
On his 11th sack the LT was beat badly again, keep in mind Andrew Thomas was not the starting LT.
So, since you like to quote pundits, were Aikman and Buck lying? or were they telling the truth? Please tell us all?
So once again if you want to prove me wrong, then you can go ahead and buy NFL Premium Plus like I have, and you can watch the condensed game in just 30 minutes. I did, so go ahead and do it, and show me and all of us why I am wrong?
I'll wait....
He does lock on his receivers right?
What if he doesn't improve upon this?
The playoff games this year stated over and over how big plays only happened when the QB moved his eyes.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 19, 2024, 11:39:12 PMI did my own research and provided input at the appropriate time, back in October. You're more than welcome to find that thread. I see NO reason to go back and rehash a game that occurred 6 months ago. Ed was kind enough to provide exerts for you; hopefully that type of in-depth analysis will allow you to view this game from an alternate/more informed perspective. I know it helped me back in Oct...
Concerning Aikman and Buck, they were watching the game live; you get an entirely different perspective after watching the tape. Do you agree with that notion? Obviously you do as you bought a package to afford you the privilege. I already own the All-22 package; in fact, if you go back to September, you'll note I was encouraging everyone with disposable income to do the same. It's worth every dime.
My goal is not to prove you wrong (with the exception of correcting the record on 6 sacks allowed); In short, I simply don't agree with a lot of your opinions and do my best to provide cogent counterpoints. Isn't that the point of an internet discussion board? This game is no exception; I simply can't fathom how anyone who watched the All-22 tape came away from that game blaming the Oline. When I watched the tape, I was far more concerned about DJ's aforementioned limitations. I simply don't believe I can add anymore to the discussion than was already provided back in Oct and Ed in this thread. I happen to agree with the latter's assessment and fundamentally disagree with your assertion the sacks are primary the offensive lines' fault; again, there's a symbiotic relationship between the OL and QB. I also know there's no data I can show, or analysis that will change your mind. You believe DJ is a top 10 QB, who's held back by a poor OL and WRs. I simply disagree with that notion. We can leave it at that...
Unfortunately, it appears that he's simply looking for replies that validate or agree with him. He's responded several times initially that he was happy when someone agreed with him. Or her if that's the case.
Troy and Buck are closet Dallas fans and that night their comments reflected restrained jubilation. If it was Romo, he would have called a spade a spade. He at least has some integrity.
It's ironic how you're being accused of not doing your own analysis, while he touts the broadcast of Buck and Troy, not doing his own.
The fifth year QB making rookie mistakes is more than alarming and it transcends all other issues. It has nothing to do with starring down an intended Receiver or making a bad decision or checking down and missing an open Receiver downfield or throwing mechanics or taking off and running instead of waiting for a play to develop or bailing the pocket instead of stepping up to make a throw. It was all about basic pre and post-snap recognition that Daniel Jones was completely oblivious to.
He missed the obvious Safety Blitz with 18 seconds to adjust, he missed the free release edge, knowing the six Olinemen were zone blocking Weak Side and he hesitated and missed a two on one open receiver window.
Encouraging a poster to express himself and ask him to reflect on his comments is mentoring up until the point he bites back. Very disappointing.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 19, 2024, 11:39:12 PMI did my own research and provided input at the appropriate time, back in October. You're more than welcome to find that thread. I see NO reason to go back and rehash a game that occurred 6 months ago. Ed was kind enough to provide exerts for you; hopefully that type of in-depth analysis will allow you to view this game from an alternate/more informed perspective. I know it helped me back in Oct...
Concerning Aikman and Buck, they were watching the game live; you get an entirely different perspective after watching the tape. Do you agree with that notion? Obviously you do as you bought a package to afford you the privilege. I already own the All-22 package; in fact, if you go back to September, you'll note I was encouraging everyone with disposable income to do the same. It's worth every dime.
My goal is not to prove you wrong (with the exception of correcting the record on 6 sacks allowed); In short, I simply don't agree with a lot of your opinions and do my best to provide cogent counterpoints. Isn't that the point of an internet discussion board? This game is no exception; I simply can't fathom how anyone who watched the All-22 tape came away without severe concerns for the starting QB. When I watched the tape, I was far more concerned about DJ's aforementioned limitations than the bad Oline. I simply don't believe I can add anymore to the discussion than was already provided back in Oct and Ed in this thread. I happen to agree with the latter's assessment and fundamentally disagree with your assertion that DJ is the victim of the offensive line; again, there's a symbiotic relationship between the OL and QB. I also know there's no data I can show, or analysis that will change your mind. You believe DJ is a top 10 QB, who's held back by a poor OL, coaching, and skilled players. I simply disagree with that notion. We can leave it at that...
This place would be amazing if we could get more respectful posts like this. =D> =D>
Excellent response,
@kingm56 :ok:
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 11:46:57 AMBob, you have to look at the entire picture, so to that point I agree but, Kelce performs because Mahomes performs. The KC Offense moves the ball also due to scheme and protections. We have to put Daboll and Kafka in the equations also, compared to Reid. So many times Jalin Hyatt was open and he never got the ball by all three QB's. I wonder how Slayton would have faired on KC. Likely a 1000 yard Receiver. See the stats I produced to Rich.
Ed: We both know all your points above are correct, but IMO they're putting the cart before the horse.
Although I continue to emphasize the need for an elite WR, the absolute top priority is to fix the OL.
If the QB doesn't have time to throw to anybody, it doesn't matter if you have an elite WR.
And if your team can't mount a serious threat to run the ball successfully, any passing attack will suffer.
As for Hyatt, unless we know the order of the QB' reads, it's tough to lay blame.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 20, 2024, 07:54:34 AMEd: We both know all your points above are correct, but IMO they're putting the cart before the horse.
Although I continue to emphasize the need for an elite WR, the absolute top priority is to fix the OL.
If the QB doesn't have time to throw to anybody, it doesn't matter if you have an elite WR.
And if your team can't mount a serious threat to run the ball successfully, any passing attack will suffer.
As for Hyatt, unless we know the order of the QB' reads, it's tough to lay blame.
Bob
Bob, it's not just one thing. It's a combination of things and that's my point.
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 20, 2024, 07:54:34 AMEd: We both know all your points above are correct, but IMO they're putting the cart before the horse.
Although I continue to emphasize the need for an elite WR, the absolute top priority is to fix the OL.
If the QB doesn't have time to throw to anybody, it doesn't matter if you have an elite WR.
And if your team can't mount a serious threat to run the ball successfully, any passing attack will suffer.
As for Hyatt, unless we know the order of the QB' reads, it's tough to lay blame.
Bob
Bob,
I fundamentally agree the offensive line needs to be fixed; however, I do disagree the Giants' woes are solely a reflection of said line. I view the Seattle game as a microcosm of our offensive ineptitude. Yes, the OL was terrible, but the QB was equally bad and did nothing to assist his five brethren. If DJ correctly deciphers just a few blitzes, and burns the def, they may be less adapt to blitz. Considering more than 70% of Seattle sacks were tailed by the back seven, that could have gone a long way to providing the additional time you highlighted. However, our current paradigm is one where opposing defensive players openly mock DJs ability to read blitzes/defenses; in the aforementioned Seattle game, note the dbs didn't even attempt to disguise their blitzes. Again, I'm not suggesting it's all on DJ, what I am suggesting is DJ has significant culpability for the bottom 8 offenses he's commanded during his tenure. Fixing the OL will not solve all our woes.
Quote from: kingm56 on February 20, 2024, 08:27:55 AMBob,
I fundamentally agree the offensive line needs to be fixed; however, I do disagree the Giants' woes are solely a reflection of said line. I view the Seattle game as a microcosm of our offensive ineptitude. Yes, the OL was terrible, but the QB was equally bad and did nothing to assist his five brethren. If DJ correctly deciphers just a few blitzes, and burns the def, they may be less adapt to blitz. Considering more than 70% of Seattle sacks were tailed by the back seven, that could have gone a long way to providing the additional time you highlighted. However, our current paradigm is one where opposing defensive players openly mock DJs ability to read blitzes/defenses; in the aforementioned Seattle game, note the dbs didn't even attempt to disguise their blitzes. Again, I'm not suggesting it's all on DJ, what I am suggesting is DJ has significant culpability for the bottom 8 offenses he's commanded during his tenure. Fixing the OL will not solve all our woes.
king: Yes, I don't deny Jones his fair share of the blame either, but my point (on which I have been consistent, IMO, since the start of his career) is/was that he has never had either a good offensive line or an elite WR. To me, that translates into a grade of "incomplete" rather than F, D or C (all possible grades if you refuse to cut him a break). I understand the point of many that a QB drafted so high in the first round should be able to "pull the boat" (elevate the team), but to them I say... "How do you know he hasn't already been doing that?" In other words, is it not possible that this group of WR's and OL's would have performed even worse under a lesser QB? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on February 20, 2024, 09:05:46 AMking: Yes, I don't deny Jones his fair share of the blame either, but my point (on which I have been consistent, IMO, since the start of his career) is/was that he has never had either a good offensive line or an elite WR. To me, that translates into a grade of "incomplete" rather than F, D or C (all possible grades if you refuse to cut him a break). I understand the point of many that a QB drafted so high in the first round should be able to "pull the boat" (elevate the team), but to them I say... "How do you know he hasn't already been doing that?" In other words, is it not possible that this group of WR's and OL's would have performed even worse under a lesser QB? Bob
You might be right. You might be wrong. The quandary now is what to do for the future? Gamble that DJ will both stay healthy and upgrade his game to at least middling level, or go in another direction with a young, promising QB that can be groomed by Daboll? In either case, Jones is here for 2024, but the opportunity to pick up a promising young QB is as well and probably won't be next year. So...what to do?
Quote from: katkavage on February 20, 2024, 09:24:40 AMYou might be right. You might be wrong. The quandary now is what to do for the future? Gamble that DJ will both stay healthy and upgrade his game to at least middling level, or go in another direction with a young, promising QB that can be groomed by Daboll? In either case, Jones is here for 2024, but the opportunity to pick up a promising young QB is as well and probably won't be next year. So...what to do?
kat: It's the health of Jones that worries me more than what I believe I know (i.e., he'll play plenty well enough to win in the NFL with a competent (and complete) supporting cast. I don't mean 10 All-Pro's on offense either... just a bunch of players in the C+ to B+ arena. IMO, the majority of the Giants' current starting ten players on offense are about C- or C, so they've got a long way to go, IMO. Bob
Don't disagree with those grades, Bob. But Jones is a solid C or C minus in my opt. So there's that too.
https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/2/20/24075850/nfl-com-qb-rankings-where-do-the-giants-quarterbacks-rank-amongst-all-2023-starters
Nfl.com rank qbs in 2023
Tyrod taylor 32
Tommy Devito 37
Daniel Jones 46
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 10:37:17 PMThe first sack it was 5 on 5 as the TE was not blocking but going out and the RB was going for a swing pass as he was set right side too but that edge had to cover him. It was clear that in Zone the Safety didn't hide he was blitzing pre-Snap. Jones should have moved the RB and it looks like it was Breda to the left side to pick him up and then hit the hot read vacated in the coverage. At that point the TE should have stayed in to block. There was 17 seconds on the clock so there was plenty of time. DJ never saw it coming but was fixed on the Swing Pass and the TE on the right side. This was all DJ's credit for the sack.
Ed,
Thank you for watching the 3 sacks and the time clips I had mentioned.
Here is what I am seeing.
With regards to the 1st sack at the 1:50 mark, DJ is getting sacked in 2 seconds.
Waller the TE wasn't even turned around yet for a 5 yard curl pass when DJ was sacked.
The RB Breida on the swing pass to the right side had a defender lined up covering him, that if DJ threw the ball to him, he could have coughed it up just like Saquon on opening night against Dallas.
Either way, in my opinion this sack was not on DJ at all, but on his Offensive line, and the lack of picking up the blitz.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 10:52:01 PMOn the second sack, the QB needs to be know the blocking scheme, which I'm sure he did in a Jumbo Formation with two Tackles in the right side all blocking Zone Left. Nobody was blocking the free release on that right side and he never picked up on it. Not only that but trying to get escape he held the ball like a loaf of bread which resulted in a strip and a turnover.
Once again thank you for watching the second sack at the 2:41 mark.
Here is how I am seeing it.
Once again in less than 2 seconds, DJ is getting hit.
After he breaks the first tackle, if he throws it to Wandale on the flat down at the bottom of the screen, #20 Love is all over him, he really had nowhere to go.
As far as holding the ball like a loaf of bread, DJ was scrambling to the bottom of the screen looking down field trying to find someone open when he was strip sacked from behind.
An absolutely brutal onslaught by the Seahawks, and once again this sack was on his Offensive line, and not on him, but that is just my opinion.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 11:04:05 PMFinally, DJ had a choice between WDR and Breda and he didn't pull the trigger. Robinson needed to make a cleaner cut inside but it was one Defender on two. The Mike came in to cover WDR when DJ hesitated as he gave up on Waller, who was then open but DJ was fixed on that right side so he passed him off to the high Safety. Again on DJ. He had options and panicked.
On the 3rd sack, I would agree with you here, that DJ could have hit Wandale for a 3 yard gain, but it still would have setup 3rd and 4, and he would have taken a hit as he threw it, if he could have gotten it off because a defender was coming through the line.
Or if he hits Breida in the flat, it may have been for a loss or no gain since a defender was right there.
So, on this last one, he could have possibly avoided that, so I agree with you here, but that is just my opinion as well
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 11:31:36 PMso just for record @sxdxca38 , you are saying PFF is WRONG and in fact Daniel Jones is not the 2nd worst QB in the NFL at picking up pressures? I would bet PFF did not record 10 of 11 of the Jones sacks that game as the Olines fault. Just a hunch. I guess you know more than PFF, and we are all just appealing to authority.
https://twitter.com/Ihartitz/status/1757465944824193328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1757465944824193328%7Ctwgr%5E30742007569c47df21f2d76958281c7245ee50b7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fgiantsfans.net%2Fmessage_board%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D69114.0
No, sadly, that is not what I am saying.
What I said was in the first five games he played against Dallas, San Fran, Seattle, and Miami. All playoff teams, and two had top five defenses. Your defensive competition has an impact on your performance, would you not agree?
And for the record Andrew Thomas their best LT got injured in the opening game against Dallas, second drive I believe. Losing him affects your O line and QB's performance, would you not agree?
T. Taylor played in week 6 against Buffalo, a top 4 defense and put up 9 points.
Now to address your stat, it is too small of a sample size to prove anything, as DJ only played in 6 games, and in the last one he got injured in the 1st quarter.
To further show why I disagree with your statement, is because in 2021 DJ was only responsible for 8% of his total QB pressures, and he played in 11 games.
He was one of the best at not creating pressures that year in the league.
This further shows, that using a small sample size of only 6 games in 2023, is a logical fallacy and can give you faulty results.
I know you want to prove me wrong, but you're going to have to come up with some stronger evidence, and a larger sample size.
Here is my data below, please have a look...
QB's creating pressure (https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesotavikings/comments/stzt5g/which_qbs_created_their_own_pressures_in_2021/)
Quote from: kingm56 on February 19, 2024, 11:39:12 PMI did my own research and provided input at the appropriate time, back in October. You're more than welcome to find that thread. I see NO reason to go back and rehash a game that occurred 6 months ago. Ed was kind enough to provide exerts for you; hopefully that type of in-depth analysis will allow you to view this game from an alternate/more informed perspective. I know it helped me back in Oct...
Concerning Aikman and Buck, they were watching the game live; you get an entirely different perspective after watching the tape. Do you agree with that notion? Obviously you do as you bought a package to afford you the privilege. I already own the All-22 package; in fact, if you go back to September, you'll note I was encouraging everyone with disposable income to do the same. It's worth every dime.
My goal is not to prove you wrong (with the exception of correcting the record on 6 sacks allowed); In short, I simply don't agree with a lot of your opinions and do my best to provide cogent counterpoints. Isn't that the point of an internet discussion board? This game is no exception; I simply can't fathom how anyone who watched the All-22 tape came away without severe concerns for the starting QB. When I watched the tape, I was far more concerned about DJ's aforementioned limitations than the bad Oline. I simply don't believe I can add anymore to the discussion than was already provided back in Oct and Ed in this thread. I happen to agree with the latter's assessment and fundamentally disagree with your assertion that DJ is the victim of the offensive line; again, there's a symbiotic relationship between the OL and QB. I also know there's no data I can show, or analysis that will change your mind. You believe DJ is a top 10 QB, who's held back by a poor OL, coaching, and skilled players. I simply disagree with that notion. We can leave it at that...
Thank you for your response, I appreciated it, as it was respectful.
I haven't stated in recent times that DJ is a top ten quarterback, so please do not misquote me.
What I did say before the beginning of the 2023 season, is that could DJ be a top ten QB? that is all.
Chris Simms had DJ ranked as a top 11 QB before the 2023 season.
In 2022 - DJ's QB RTG was 92.5 which ranked him 13th, and his QBR was 62.9 which ranked him 6th. That puts him around the ten spot doesn't it?
However we must account for the competition that they played against, so I would concede this point.
Several experts and analysts also felt he was ascending, but this was all before the 2023 season.
I believe even you had him slated and ranked somewhere between a top 12-18 QB? Am I wrong?
And as I said, the Giants faced a buzzsaw the first 6 games of the season last year, it was brutal, would you agree with that?
And they lost Andrew Thomas their best LT in the second drive of the opening game against Dallas, could that not affect his performance?
Just something to think about, as I'll leave my other messages and posts for you to read and cogitate on, as I don't have a lot more to say on the subject.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 24, 2024, 10:44:26 PMNo, sadly, that is not what I am saying.
What I said was in the first five games he played against Dallas, San Fran, Seattle, and Miami. All playoff teams, and two had top five defenses. Your defensive competition has an impact on your performance, would you not agree?
And for the record Andrew Thomas their best LT got injured in the opening game against Dallas, second drive I believe. Losing him affects your O line and QB's performance, would you not agree?
T. Taylor played in week 6 against Buffalo, a top 4 defense and put up 9 points.
Now to address your stat, it is too small of a sample size to prove anything, as DJ only played in 6 games, and in the last one he got injured in the 1st quarter.
To further show why I disagree with your statement, is because in 2021 DJ was only responsible for 8% of his total QB pressures, and he played in 11 games.
He was one of the best at not creating pressures that year in the league.
This further shows, that using a small sample size of only 6 games in 2023, is a logical fallacy and can give you faulty results.
I know you want to prove me wrong, but you're going to have to come up with some stronger evidence, and a larger sample size.
Here is my data below, please have a look...
QB's creating pressure (https://www.reddit.com/r/minnesotavikings/comments/stzt5g/which_qbs_created_their_own_pressures_in_2021/)
Jones is the 6th highest paid player in the NFL, he does not need your awful excuses about playing against good defenses.
"Too small a sample size LOL".. how about his ENTIRE career in 5 years? Awful.
and ok he was better at avoiding pressure last year, do you not realize he is now once again injured limiting his potential to run and avoid pressure?
What is your purpose with these posts? You ACTUALLY want Jones back next year as the starter?
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 26, 2024, 07:49:22 PMJones is the 6th highest paid player in the NFL, he does not need your awful excuses about playing against good defenses.
"Too small a sample size LOL".. how about his ENTIRE career in 5 years? Awful.
and ok he was better at avoiding pressure last year, do you not realize he is now once again injured limiting his potential to run and avoid pressure?
What is your purpose with these posts? You ACTUALLY want Jones back next year as the starter?
Hi,
I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to your opinion. However, there is no reason to put me down, and to call my understandings as "awful excuses". This forum was created to have a healthy dialogue between fans, and to do so showing respect for the other party.
Some of the guidelines here say we are not to put the other person down, or to attack them personally. So I would appreciate it if you would not do that to me.
As to answering your question about what is the purpose of my post. In my opening statement I said that I do not think the Giants will be able to land one of the top 3 QB prospects, because I do not think Chicago, Washington, or New England will trade out of the pick.
So instead of drafting a QB with the sixth pick, who is more than likely a watered-down version of one of the top 3, I recommended staying with DJ for another year, rebuilding the right side of the O line and getting a #1 WR in the draft.
And then in the following years go and get the QB you really want without having to give away the farm, that was my intent, nothing more, nothing less.
I have nothing more to say on the subject, as I will now be going back to work. Feel free to respond, but I will more than likely not respond anymore, take care.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 28, 2024, 01:00:10 PMHi,
I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to your opinion. However, there is no reason to put me down, and to call my understandings as "awful excuses". This forum was created to have a healthy dialogue between fans, and to do so showing respect for the other party.
Some of the guidelines here say we are not to put the other person down, or to attack them personally. So I would appreciate it if you would not do that to me.
As to answering your question about what is the purpose of my post. In my opening statement I said that I do not think the Giants will be able to land one of the top 3 QB prospects, because I do not think Chicago, Washington, or New England will trade out of the pick.
So instead of drafting a QB with the sixth pick, who is more than likely a watered-down version of one of the top 3, I recommended staying with DJ for another year, rebuilding the right side of the O line and getting a #1 WR in the draft.
And then in the following years go and get the QB you really want without having to give away the farm, that was my intent, nothing more, nothing less.
I have nothing more to say on the subject, as I will now be going back to work. Feel free to respond, but I will more than likely not respond anymore, take care.
that is fair i am sorry you feel that way. the "awful excuses" was not meant to be a personal attack against you but on the points made.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on February 18, 2024, 11:20:32 PMI know many here want QB prospects Williams, Mcdaniels and Maye, and I understand, and I get it, as it would be nice get one of them, but realistically the Giants have little to no chance at any of them.
After watching the first 6 games, the O-line was being manhandled and DJ had no time and no shot. If you want to see a good example of this, go and rewatch the Seahawks game, he literally had to play perfect, ball coming out in 2 seconds or less, and even then, it would have been extremely difficult to win. This was noted by the announcers, Aikman and Buck.
The first five out of six opponents were:
A) Cowboys - #5 defense
B) 49ers - #3 defense
C) Seahawks
D) Dolphins
E) Bills - #4 defense (Tyrod started)
The team was 1-5 at this point, as they faced a buzzsaw the first 6 games of the season. DJ throws a good ball, has a strong arm, and is accurate enough to win with.
And for those saying Tyrod was better, he put up a whopping 9 points against the Bills defense, and 14 points against the terrible 4-13 Commanders the following week, so he isn't the long-term answer either.
I also do not think panicking and picking a new QB at 6 just because you need one is the right answer either, that just makes things worse, especially if you get it wrong.
So here is my recommendation, feel free to agree or disagree with this, but this is what I would do.
With the first 3 picks use them on a #1 WR and beef up the O line with the other two picks.
Since DJ is already under contract for the 2024 season, let him play it out and see what he can do when you give him more time, so he can throw some deeper passes. You may actually be surprised that the DJ of 2022 comes back, and him and the team performs well next season, but let's just see.
If they are terrible again, then at that point you can unload the DJ contract, and then look at new QB's in the following seasons 2025-2026 without having to give away the farm for one of them.
Feel free to agree or disagree, but that is what I would do, curious your thoughts?
On February 18th, 2024, I had made the following post up above, several months prior to the draft.
The reason why I wanted to share this post was because several of the things that were shared have come true, which have been highlighted in bold up above.
If the first part has already transpired, then there is a strong possibility that DJ and the Giants bounce back in 2024, which is addressed in the second part.
Just wanted to share, as I'm now off to work.