Consider that Schoen's plan was for this team to have an elite O-line with
All-Pro Andrew Thomas at LT
High-rounder Josh Ezeudu at LG providing solid play
Second-rounder JMS, being the elite anchor in the middle of the line
Glowinski providing a solid but unspectacular play at RG
High pick Evan Neal was supposed to play at Pro Bowl level
The pair of elite OTs would have been negating all edge rushers without double-team
DJ was supposed to have tons of time, which would have made the receivers look far more talented. Receivers always look better at 5 Mississippi than 3 Mississippi
Barkley was supposed to have an All-Pro season behind the powerful elite O-line
The offensive power would have helped the defense by requiring them to play far less.
Instead, the Giants ended up with one of the worst O-lines (if not the worst lines) last season due to poor play and mismanaged injuries (how does AT miss two months for a hamstring injury that didn't even take him out of the game?!?!)
Had the O-line played like the draft capital invested (two high ones, a 2nd rounder and a high 3rd rounder) would have expected it to play, we would be having a very different conversation this off-season.
Rich: IMO there are a cavalcade of the other possible reasons, but inasmuch as I believe offensive line is an NFL team's most important unit (more important than any other individual position - including QB), I agree not only that you are correct but also with you use of the words "far and away" in the title of this thread. Bob
Rich - it all starts with their horrible (hint not bad) OL play. Brought everything down.
Folks should rewatch the 1st Cowboys game with a healthy OL to start and how bad they looked.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 02, 2024, 10:05:43 AMConsider that Schoen's plan was for this team to have an elite O-line with
All-Pro Andrew Thomas at LT
High-rounder Josh Ezeudu at LG providing solid play
Second-rounder JMS, being the elite anchor in the middle of the line
Glowinski providing a solid but unspectacular play at RG
High pick Evan Neal was supposed to play at Pro Bowl level
The pair of elite OTs would have been negating all edge rushers without double-team
DJ was supposed to have tons of time, which would have made the receivers look far more talented. Receivers always look better at 5 Mississippi than 3 Mississippi
Barkley was supposed to have an All-Pro season behind the powerful elite O-line
The offensive power would have helped the defense by requiring them to play far less.
Instead, the Giants ended up with one of the worst O-lines (if not the worst lines) last season due to poor play and mismanaged injuries (how does AT miss two months for a hamstring injury that didn't even take him out of the game?!?!)
Had the O-line played like the draft capital invested (two high ones, a 2nd rounder and a high 3rd rounder) would have expected it to play, we would be having a very different conversation this off-season.
I don't agree that there was a #1 reason behind this team's failure. They were bottom 5 in a dozen areas, each of which important at or near the same degree.
Personally, I felt the poor coaching and preparation was the biggest reason for failure last year. The team looked shell shocked often, got down early repeatedly, and was out-coached across all 3 units at least a half-dozen times.
I also think there were numerous failure points across the offense that all can't be excused due to the horrific OL play. Our QBs stunk. Our RBs stunk. Most of our WRs and TE stunk. And while some of that can be attributed to pressure, it would be foolish to think the same group of guys with a couple of new guards is all of a sudden going to be competitive.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on March 02, 2024, 07:41:13 PMI don't agree that there was a #1 reason behind this team's failure. They were bottom 5 in a dozen areas, each of which important at or near the same degree.
Personally, I felt the poor coaching and preparation was the biggest reason for failure last year. The team looked shell shocked often, got down early repeatedly, and was out-coached across all 3 units at least a half-dozen times.
I also think there were numerous failure points across the offense that all can't be excused due to the horrific OL play. Our QBs stunk. Our RBs stunk. Most of our WRs and TE stunk. And while some of that can be attributed to pressure, it would be foolish to think the same group of guys with a couple of new guards is all of a sudden going to be competitive.
When you are thinking the part in bold, it almost always traces back to a horrific O-line
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 02, 2024, 08:15:59 PMWhen you are thinking the part in bold, it almost always traces back to a horrific O-line
And as I said, some of it can, but I do not agree that it "almost always" can.
Poor drafting, with the actual draftees, and the strategy behind the picks ie, Saquon at #2. Why has the legality of the draft itself not been challenged by a particular team's front office/ownership? Why are college football players eligible to being drafted not considered to be just like the top 100 Accounting graduates, or the top 100 Engineering graduates that can have a choice of the top Accounting firms, or Engineering positions? Why should competitive balance have a say when it doesn't in other professions?
tyrod already proved he can make an awful oline look decent compared to horrible tommy and jones. it's a QB issue not a Oline issue
I agree 100%... your post is quite insightful eventhough it might sound too simplistic to some. It is quite ordinary to look at the Giants unexpected results and say the whole team sucked. But you are dissecting the problem and seeing a clear reason leading to a potentially simple solution for a big leap, if they can change the way they evaluate O line talent and train them better too. When I look at other teams with good O lines, they mostly are built with lower draft picks! that should tell you something.
Quote from: files58 on March 02, 2024, 09:08:02 PMPoor drafting, with the actual draftees, and the strategy behind the picks ie, Saquon at #2. Why has the legality of the draft itself not been challenged by a particular team's front office/ownership? Why are college football players eligible to being drafted not considered to be just like the top 100 Accounting graduates, or the top 100 Engineering graduates that can have a choice of the top Accounting firms, or Engineering positions? Why should competitive balance have a say when it doesn't in other professions?
Ownership created the drafting system.
With guys like Hernandez and Feliciano leaving and having more success elsewhere, I question whether talent is the issue with the OL.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 03, 2024, 07:57:54 AMWith guys like Hernandez and Feliciano leaving and having more success elsewhere, I question whether talent is the issue with the OL.
Valid point. This is why I'm slightly reluctant to use the 6th pick on another tackle. Believe me, I'm hardly confident in Neal, but when I see these ex Giant linemen do well elsewhere I can't help but wonder if our current guys may have more success now that there has been what appears to be a significant coaching upgrade for the unit.
I think the O line personnel needs to be addressed in a meaningful way in this offseason, but that doesn't mean it absolutely has to happen with the 6th overall pick.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 02, 2024, 10:05:43 AMConsider that Schoen's plan was for this team to have an elite O-line with
All-Pro Andrew Thomas at LT
High-rounder Josh Ezeudu at LG providing solid play
Second-rounder JMS, being the elite anchor in the middle of the line
Glowinski providing a solid but unspectacular play at RG
High pick Evan Neal was supposed to play at Pro Bowl level
The pair of elite OTs would have been negating all edge rushers without double-team
DJ was supposed to have tons of time, which would have made the receivers look far more talented. Receivers always look better at 5 Mississippi than 3 Mississippi
Barkley was supposed to have an All-Pro season behind the powerful elite O-line
The offensive power would have helped the defense by requiring them to play far less.
Instead, the Giants ended up with one of the worst O-lines (if not the worst lines) last season due to poor play and mismanaged injuries (how does AT miss two months for a hamstring injury that didn't even take him out of the game?!?!)
Had the O-line played like the draft capital invested (two high ones, a 2nd rounder and a high 3rd rounder) would have expected it to play, we would be having a very different conversation this off-season.
Fully agree! And Peart and Lemieux were supposed to be at least competent depth, as well. When you look at our recent history (going back to Flowers) of drafting OLs, I feel like Thomas was sheer luck!
While the OL is, and has been, one of our major problems, it is NOT, far and away, the #1 reason why we are so bad. We had a similar OL the year before and we won more than we lost. They were good enough to get us into the playoffs. The main reason why we stunk so badly was just horrible QB play from our well-paid, supposedly talented, Jones. When we used other QBs, we were bad but we were reasonably competitive--same OL, same RB, same WR. Again, our OL was one of the worst in the league, but a capable QB, we managed with it.
After that, I will throw in coaching. I think the team was terribly prepared to play most games this season. Be it the 'players coach' not getting his message across, to our incapable OC who never seemed to get that his QB was under siege and adjust the game plan to fit what we had on the field. Throw in a terrible OL coach, and our training staff who can't keep guys off of IR and we had a mess.
NOT by far, the OL line's entire fault, except when you believe our QB is wonderful, then sure blame the OL.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 02, 2024, 10:05:43 AMHad the O-line played like the draft capital invested (two high ones, a 2nd rounder and a high 3rd rounder) would have expected it to play, we would be having a very different conversation this off-season.
Which is a cautionary warning against the throwing more high capital resources at the OL is likely to be a panacea.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 03, 2024, 07:49:43 AMOwnership created the drafting system.
Doesn't the NFL have an antitrust exemption that allows this?
If we define bad as not being good, it describes the Giants for the past 10 years, that is for a decade in which they have had just two winning seasons, 7 years apart during which they have averaged a win in a mere 34 percent of their games. Moreover, at least until now as we begin this new decade year, it has yet to make much difference as to who has been GM, HC, OC, DC, QB, RB, WR, Oline, or on the other side playing D.
That is not to say that they haven't had talent just never enough when and where. Whether and when we may we see that change with any sort of consistency is- wait for it- anybody's guess.
Cheers!
I agree the OL stunk. That said, I watched games where folks were open at 3 Mississippi and the QB didn't throw it. So yeah the line stunk and so did the QB.
Quote from: expatriot on March 04, 2024, 02:40:11 PMI agree the OL stunk. That said, I watched games where folks were open at 3 Mississippi and the QB didn't throw it. So yeah the line stunk and so did the QB.
The pressure was being applied (on average) on Jones on average in an incredibly quick 2.31 seconds (led the league) so those "3 Mississippis" didn't happen very often.
I believe a big part of the problem was we never knew from week to week was who would be playing on the OL last year. We constantly hear a big reason the OL needs is cohesion, I would think it is pretty hard to do if the man next to you is someone new every week.
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 03, 2024, 01:52:07 AMtyrod already proved he can make an awful oline look decent compared to horrible tommy and jones. it's a QB issue not a Oline issue
this is an awful take. so he made a few big throws downfield and all was forgotten? sorry.. but they were just as bad with taylor. he was just a littel gutsier and made quicker decisions. the oline was still rotten with him.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on March 05, 2024, 04:33:02 PMthis is an awful take. so he made a few big throws downfield and all was forgotten? sorry.. but they were just as bad with taylor. he was just a littel gutsier and made quicker decisions. the oline was still rotten with him.
read the stats bud. Tyrod was about 15th in the league acccording to PFF in terms of responsibility for sacks that were his fault. Meanwhile Jones and Tommy were ranked last and 2nd to last.
Bottom line is if we had Tyrod all of last season, we would have made the playoffs.
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 05, 2024, 06:18:37 PMread the stats bud. Tyrod was about 15th in the league acccording to PFF in terms of responsibility for sacks that were his fault. Meanwhile Jones and Tommy were ranked last and 2nd to last.
Bottom line is if we had Tyrod all of last season, we would have made the playoffs.
No way this team was playoff bound with Taylor. While DJ has hindered the offense for 4+ seasons, he's hardly to sole problem. Fundamentally, the Giants lack difference-makers at all levels. I don't understand how Taylor would overcome a bottom 5 def that couldn't stop the run, or an anemic running game. BL, the Giants are at best the 3rd most talented team in their division. 2022 was a house-of-cards and anyone who can separate emotions from their analysis could plainly see this was a sub 500 team, whether DJ, Tommy or Taylor was the QB. In short, they stink across the board.
Quote from: kingm56 on March 05, 2024, 07:01:48 PMNo way this team was playoff bound with Taylor. While DJ has hindered the offense for 4+ seasons, he's hardly to sole problem. Fundamentally, the Giants lack difference-makers at all levels. I don't understand how Taylor would overcome a bottom 5 def that couldn't stop the run, or an anemic running game. BL, the Giants are at best the 3rd most talented team in their division. 2022 was a house-of-cards and anyone who can separate emotions from their analysis could plainly see this was a sub 500 team, whether DJ, Tommy or Taylor was the QB. In short, they stink across the board.
how many games were like 1-2 possessions from a win-loss?
i agree the offense in general needs a rehaul bc tyrod's ceiling is low.
The Giants if properly fortified, might be able to catch the Eagles this year.