That was the pronouncement from Rich Eissen. Rich isn't an "insider," so as Mike Lombardi suggested, Rich probably heard this from someone within the Giants organization.
NYG mouthpiece, the Giants Insider, pronounced that the Giants are done with Jones and are moving on.
Even Carl Banks and Bob Papa suggested DJ is done.
Now here is what is bothering me. Say what you will about Shoen's decisions, but the one constant since Schoen has got here is that he never telegraphs his intentions (beyond that Daniel Jones was coming back in 2023).
While common sense suggests the Giants will be moving on from DJ due to injury issues and his on-field struggles in 2022, it's hardly a slam dunk. There are a sizeable number of people who believe Mara is the puppet master, and he still loves Daniel Jones.
So why are the Giants telegraphing their intentions pre-draft when the Giants simply do not do that under Schoen?
One explanation would be to prime the fanbase to expect the team to move on from their current start. Only the number of fans who hate DJ or are very down on him is quite sizeable, so this doesn't seem to be needed.
So is this entire thing an elaborate smokescreen to entice teams to trade up to draft a QB before the Giants (forcing WRs lower) or to trade with the Giants (fetching them a king's ransom)?
Baby Papa and Charlie Weis had a conversation about the Giants this week on NFL Radio.
They were discussing offseason rumors in general. Weis was trying to make a point about people and their predictions and how they could know what they claim to know.
Weis asked Papa if head heard any info about the Giants draft intentions (or general other offseason moves) noting that Papa is about as close to the Giants as any beat reporter or other media people.
And Papa said absolutely not, the organization is as tight lipped as any regime he can remember.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 16, 2024, 08:29:10 AMBaby Papa and Charlie Weis had a conversation about the Giants this week on NFL Radio.
They were discussing offseason rumors in general. Weis was trying to make a point about people and their predictions and how they could know what they claim to know.
Weis asked Papa if head heard any info about the Giants draft intentions (or general other offseason moves) noting that Papa is about as close to the Giants as any beat reporter or other media people.
And Papa said absolutely not, the organization is as tight lipped as any regime he can remember.
Off topic here but Charlie Weiss is absolutely the worst listen on Sirius NFL Radio. Talks a lot, says nothing.
Quote from: Gman329 on March 16, 2024, 08:39:13 AMOff topic here but Charlie Weiss is absolutely the worst listen on Sirius NFL Radio. Talks a lot, says nothing.
I find Ryan Leaf to be one if the worst. Weis's perspective on things is interesting to me and listening to some of his stories.
There are lots of potential sources for any story. The questions I always ask are is the media guy credible (Eisen is not a BS guy) and if so, who benefits?
In this case the only way Giants benefit is if they are only sold on 2 of 3 WR and are doing what Mighty suggests in his final paragraph.
Who else might benefit? A team above us wanting to trade out. The agents of almost any QB not named Caleb Williams trying to heat up the market and generate leverage. Another GM/HC wanting to trade up but preferring to distract the media to focus elsewhere (Denver, New Orleans, Las Vegas might all fit here; less so Minnesota as they tipped their hand).
Bottom line I think the Giants are not the most likely source, but that does not mean it is not true.
Given Jones is not going anywhere in 2024, I would agree that it would seem odd for a normally tight-lipped organization to send that message externally, even if it is true behind closed doors.
The one thing Schoen did say publicly on multiple occasions in the past month is that "we need to address the QB position, and that could mean in the draft and/or in free agency." Of course, he also said that he expects Jones to be the starter if/when he is healthy enough.
I have my own views on Jones' remaining longevity with this team, but at the end of the day I don't know anything for sure. I will just see how it plays out. Clearly if they draft a QB in the first round, Jones is a goner after 2024. I think every Giants fan should be able to agree on that. Also, if they don't spread out this exorbitant $47mm 2024 cap hit of his, which it looks like they won't as they probably would have taken care of that before free agency, that is a pretty clear sign that, at the very least, they want to preserve the option of moving on from him after 2024. There's just no way you'd take that big of a hit this year unnecessarily if you view him as the QB of the future.
So to sum up, I feel like there is already a lot of writing on the wall on this subject, regardless of what the Rich Eisens of the world say.
Got to stop with the "hate Jones" narrative. I have no hate for Jones. I just don't think he can ever lead the Giants beyond mediocrity and I want, as an aging Giant fan, to see them find someone who can. And the sooner the better. That's all.
Quote from: katkavage on March 16, 2024, 09:09:49 AMGot to stop with the "hate Jones" narrative. I have no hate for Jones. I just don't think he can ever lead the Giants beyond mediocrity and I want, as an aging Giant fan, to see them find someone who can. And the sooner the better. That's all.
I am not suggesting you hate Jones (which is why I said there are those who hate and those who are just very down on him). While there are people who hold a reasoned position to be down on Jones, there is no denying that there is a significant portion of the fanbase and commentators who are displaying visceral emotional issues with Daniel Jones. Jones generated that hate from the moment David Gettleman drafted him.
It's an interesting phenomenon, as I can't recall seeing a similar issue in my many decades as a football fan.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 08:44:14 AMGiven Jones is not going anywhere in 2024, I would agree that it would seem odd for a normally tight-lipped organization to send that message externally, even if it is true behind closed doors.
The one thing Schoen did say publicly on multiple occasions in the past month is that "we need to address the QB position, and that could mean in the draft and/or in free agency." Of course, he also said that he expects Jones to be the starter if/when he is healthy enough.
I have my own views on Jones' remaining longevity with this team, but at the end of the day I don't know anything for sure. I will just see how it plays out. Clearly if they draft a QB in the first round, Jones is a goner after 2024. I think every Giants fan should be able to agree on that. Also, if they don't spread out this exorbitant $47mm 2024 cap hit of his, which it looks like they won't as they probably would have taken care of that before free agency, that is a pretty clear sign that, at the very least, they want to preserve the option of moving on from him after 2024. There's just no way you'd take that big of a hit this year unnecessarily if you view him as the QB of the future.
So to sum up, I feel like there is already a lot of writing on the wall on this subject, regardless of what the Rich Eisens of the world say.
I am not suggesting that the Giants should continue to ride with the often-injured Jones moving forward. My point is that having that story get out in the press so strongly would only be detrimental to the Giants moving forward, and this new regime seems to do a very good job keeping their trade and draft intentions secret.
Jones has proven to be a fleet footed QB who has absolutely no grasp for the rest of the positional nuance
- receiver selection
- touch downfield outside the numbers
- football speed and trajectory
- pocket awareness
- ability to rally his troops
plus a Barkley like ability to sustain injuries
He is gone to me....Tommy Devito outplayed him by a mile and a half as did Tyrod Taylor
The Giants front office is a completely different animal from the one lead by Dave Gettleman & even Jerry Reese. Getty telegraphed every move he was going to make, telling the world he was in "Full Bloom Love" with DJ and that SB was "Touched by the hand of God". It surprised no one when he drafted them. He also let everyone know he targeted Devonte Smith, and was an easy target for Dallas & Philly to undercut him.
Reese let his intentions be known before draft day and was jumped a few times too for players he wanted, if I recall correctly. (Leonard Floyd comes to mind)
I like that Schoen plays things close to the vest and has people guessing which direction his draft will go. That is the way it should be. So, I think no one knows for sure what he thinks of DJ and his future with this team. A lot of smokescreen is a good thing leading up to draft day.
Quote from: katkavage on March 16, 2024, 09:09:49 AMGot to stop with the "hate Jones" narrative. I have no hate for Jones. I just don't think he can ever lead the Giants beyond mediocrity and I want, as an aging Giant fan, to see them find someone who can. And the sooner the better. That's all.
I agree as well. It's plain childish and reveals far more about the individual behind the keyboard than Jones himself. I see it as an unfortunate Quality Control nonconformity which hampers our endeavor to achieve our mission statement on this message board.
Thank you.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 16, 2024, 09:14:12 AMI am not suggesting you hate Jones (which is why I said there are those who hate and those who are just very down on him). While there are people who hold a reasoned position to be down on Jones, there is no denying that there is a significant portion of the fanbase and commentators who are displaying visceral emotional issues with Daniel Jones. Jones generated that hate from the moment David Gettleman drafted him.
It's an interesting phenomenon, as I can't recall seeing a similar issue in my many decades as a football fan.
To be fair, Rich
@MightyGiants , it is one thing to be disappointed for him, which I reside in that camp as several others are, while others may be disappointed AT him, while still others use language describing hate AT him while still others describe hate THROUGH him and DIRECTED AT John Mara.
Hence, the Pandora's Box effect. It's not about tip-toeing around Danoel Jones, but what are you really inferring when you do address him?
It's all crazy to me.
Quote from: ozzie on March 16, 2024, 09:27:59 AMThe Giants front office is a completely different animal from the one lead by Dave Gettleman & even Jerry Reese. Getty telegraphed every move he was going to make, telling the world he was in "Full Bloom Love" with DJ and that SB was "Touched by the hand of God". It surprised no one when he drafted them. He also let everyone know he targeted Devonte Smith, and was an easy target for Dallas & Philly to undercut him.
Reese let his intentions be known before draft day and was jumped a few times too for players he wanted, if I recall correctly. (Leonard Floyd comes to mind)
I like that Schoen plays things close to the vest and has people guessing which direction his draft will go. That is the way it should be. So, I think no one knows for sure what he thinks of DJ and his future with this team. A lot of smokescreen is a good thing leading up to draft day.
With Reese, I am not sure how much the issue was leaking. The longer Reese was GM, the lazier he got. So, watching when Reese would actually leave his office and attend a Pro Day pretty much told you who the Giants were looking at since he only went to Pro Days of prospects the team was looking to draft.
I call smoke. It's that time of the year. Maybe trying to get other QB starved teams to get panicky and worrying they won't get one of the better QBs, thus driving up the value of the 6th pick in order to maximize a potential trade down. I am not convinced that Schoen has any player locked in as a player he loves, but if he does, he's not letting it slip. For me, after spending a couple months researching the draft, I've been all over the place. Lately, I'm warming up to the idea that Bowers could actually be a steal...and I've had him marked off as an unnecessary piece for the Giants for months. But he provides a superb target in both short and midfield (like a no.2 WR) and YAC, whilst adding another blocker to keep DJ upright. Truth is, I haven't a clue about Schoen's thinking and I suspect no one outside his inner circle (Brown, Rossetti, Daboll) have even an inkling of what's being said behind closed doors :-??
We'll know on April 25th, about 9:30 PM
I have a big board of about 5 guys I'd be ok with at number 6 right now. I dont want to get locked into one because we benefit either way. Teams trading up to get all 4 Qbs leaves us with the 2nd best non qb prospect or we take a qb.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 16, 2024, 09:26:53 AMI am not suggesting that the Giants should continue to ride with the often-injured Jones moving forward. My point is that having that story get out in the press so strongly would only be detrimental to the Giants moving forward, and this new regime seems to do a very good job keeping their trade and draft intentions secret.
Fair enough.
I think there have been instances where people have talked out of turn inside the organization. Didn't that allegedly happen with Tim McConnell one year?
I wouldn't be shocked to see Drew Lock outplay Jones. I was pretty high on Lock the year he came out. Perhaps a bit of a miss on my part but c'est la vie.
Jones is a proven commodity at this point. A talented runner and not much else.
Quote from: Hadron on March 16, 2024, 11:17:30 AMI wouldn't be shocked to see Drew Lock outplay Jones. I was pretty high on Lock the year he came out. Perhaps a bit of a miss on my part but c'est la vie.
Jones is a proven commodity at this point. A talented runner and not much else.
I think Jones and Lock may be roughly similar caliber passing talents, but Jones is light years better with his legs.
At this point I think you could go down to your local storefront Psychic and get information as reliable as what's leaking in the media.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on March 16, 2024, 11:35:08 AMAt this point I think you could go down to your local storefront Psychic and get information as reliable as what's leaking in the media.
LOL...so true =))
Smoke, mirrors, bait-n-switch, red herrings, out-and-out lies, overheard a conversation in a bar, diversion, chasing the wild goose, attention-grabbing ploys, deceit and distraction of every sort...such are rumors prior to the draft
Overheard in a men's room at a redneck dive bar in East Bugfux, Pennsylvania, a drunk man whispering, "I heard the Giants are trading Dexter Lawrence to the Cowboys for Dak, and then trading Daniel Jones to the Commanders for a 6th round pick". Gets 14 million hits overnight! Sufferin succatash!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/brpZZwq9/zzz04.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)picture upload (https://postimages.org/)
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 11:19:18 AMI think Jones and Lock may be roughly similar caliber passing talents, but Jones is light years better with his legs.
Legs before a torn ACL.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 16, 2024, 08:21:14 AMThat was the pronouncement from Rich Eissen.
If I were GM of another team interested in the top few picks of this draft for ANY reason, the "leaking" of such a statement by the person who said it tells me the Giants are hoping to either:
(a) get as many QB's taken in this draft BEFORE their pick comes up; or
(b) entice someone into offering to "buy their Pick number Six so they can move down.
What this does NOT in a million years tell me is that the Giants intend to select a QB at Pick Six.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 16, 2024, 09:14:12 AMI am not suggesting you hate Jones (which is why I said there are those who hate and those who are just very down on him). While there are people who hold a reasoned position to be down on Jones, there is no denying that there is a significant portion of the fanbase and commentators who are displaying visceral emotional issues with Daniel Jones. Jones generated that hate from the moment David Gettleman drafted him.
It's an interesting phenomenon, as I can't recall seeing a similar issue in my many decades as a football fan.
Well when was the last time someone was drafted at 6 that had no business being drafted there? When was the last time we clearly had the best player on this team carry a whole offense and then get shown the door basically. When was the last time they paid someone like that 40 mil a year to ride pine 1/2 the time and the other half stink up the joint.
If it is any consolation a ton of Mets fans hated Vogelbach and Showwalter for playing him but, little did those fools know it was a directive coming from the front office. He actually wanted him off the team at the trade dead line
Quote from: Gman329 on March 16, 2024, 08:39:13 AMOff topic here but Charlie Weiss is absolutely the worst listen on Sirius NFL Radio. Talks a lot, says nothing.
Sounds a lot like his tenure as a head coach. Always blustering about how teams will be at a schematic disadvantage against him before looking like a team coached by a third grader.
Quote from: madbadger on March 16, 2024, 06:02:36 PMSounds a lot like his tenure as a head coach. Always blustering about how teams will be at a schematic disadvantage against him before looking like a team coached by a third grader.
On 60 Minutes when he was coaching Notre Dame, he claimed he was the best coach in the country, and it was clear he believed that. It was nothing but downhill after that.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 08:11:26 PMOn 60 Minutes when he was coaching Notre Dame, he claimed he was the best coach in the country, and it was clear he believed that. It was nothing but downhill after that.
Somewhat unrelated his son is like one of those wiz kids, started coaching at 18 yrs old and us currently the OC at Ole Miss at the age of 30 having coached 12 years, most of which has been as an OC in the SEC.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 11:19:18 AMI think Jones and Lock may be roughly similar caliber passing talents, but Jones is light years better with his legs.
I'd say "was light years better with his legs". Big question whether he can recapture the form following an ACL
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on March 16, 2024, 09:03:16 PMI'd say "was light years better with his legs". Big question whether he can recapture the form following an ACL
Lock has never rushed for more than 160 yards in a season, and that was an outlier year. He is a career 3.9 YPC. He's a career 10.7 rushing yards per game.
Even if Jones is only 60-70% of his norm in his post ACL year, he's still a much bigger factor with his legs than Lock is or ever was.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 08:11:26 PMOn 60 Minutes when he was coaching Notre Dame, he claimed he was the best coach in the country, and it was clear he believed that. It was nothing but downhill after that.
He was the first of many former Belichek assistants who confused Bill's genius with their own.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 09:16:32 PMLock has never rushed for more than 160 yards in a season, and that was an outlier year. He is a career 3.9 YPC. He's a career 10.7 rushing yards per game.
Even if Jones is only 60-70% of his norm in his post ACL year, he's still a much bigger factor with his legs than Lock is or ever was.
Time will tell
I'm still rooting for the guy ...he's a good person and he works hard. Problem is he kinda stinks. He refuses to learn how to look off the safeties and the league knows it. I feel he is a bit of a tunnel vision type who cannot learn.
I hope he comes out this year and plays with reckless abandon and proves everyone wrong (NY loves and underdog) ....but honestly he melts when pressure increases.
He is Hostetler. Been saying it for a long time
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 16, 2024, 09:16:32 PMLock has never rushed for more than 160 yards in a season, and that was an outlier year. He is a career 3.9 YPC. He's a career 10.7 rushing yards per game.
Even if Jones is only 60-70% of his norm in his post ACL year, he's still a much bigger factor with his legs than Lock is or ever was.
if I'm Jones and/or the Giants, I am not encouraging Jones to run whatsoever given the injury clause. Doubt he even plays a snap next season
I guess there could be some gamesmanship, but it doesn't take great espionage skill to hypothesize The Giants are done with Jones. They should be. I don't have insider knowledge but know winter is cold and summer is hot. I would have liked Jones to work out, but I could tell early on he wasn't it. I was biased a bit because I thought he was a reach, but he's just not a franchise QB and that's all this organization should want. They should have walked and signed Baker a year ago.
But he's on the roster for 2024 and I have no idea what the plan is. Is Lock the starter? Probably....but he better be mobile. I don't see a trade up since he traded for a DE last week. I am good with a WR, but if they use pick 6 for McCarthy, well that would be almost as bad as 2019.
Quote from: StompYouOT on March 17, 2024, 11:41:18 AMI guess there could be some gamesmanship, but it doesn't take great espionage skill to hypothesize The Giants are done with Jones. They should be. I don't have insider knowledge but know winter is cold and summer is hot. I would have liked Jones to work out, but I could tell early on he wasn't it. I was biased a bit because I thought he was a reach, but he's just not a franchise QB and that's all this organization should want. They should have walked and signed Baker a year ago.
But he's on the roster for 2024 and I have no idea what the plan is. Is Lock the starter? Probably....but he better be mobile. I don't see a trade up since he traded for a DE last week. I am good with a WR, but if they use pick 6 for McCarthy, well that would be almost as bad as 2019.
I like JJ McCarthy, but I am still uncertain if the Giants should go with an elite WR prospect or McCarthy (if he is there at 6) in round one. I believe that a team needs proper support to develop a drafted QB. Right now, the team has good coaching, a big question mark with their O-line (until proven otherwise), and mediocre receiving targets. If they draft an elite WR, they will at least have one of the two on-field elements fixed (for when they do acquire a QB). If they go, McCarthy, I don't think the team will be well-equipped to develop him.
It's pretty much a given that eco-capo-nomics will make it just about inevitable that Daniel Jones will not be the Giants QB next year and may not even finish the season as such. However, given the challenge, indeed burden, in finding a better, more suitable successor, I can't see it as something to want to celebrate.
Cheers!
At least one or two of Legette, Pearsall, Coleman, Worthy will be there R2 or Corley, Walker, Rice R3 so there are plenty of opportunities to strengthen the WR group day 2. There will also be camp cuts. So IF they like a QB who is available to us at 6 then take the swing. I am not in favour of giving away sparse assets to trade up to swing though precisely because we have to help the new QB with better receivers and a better D.