Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:45:37 AMDid the people curse you out and disappear for a period of time?  I am not saying taking an extended lunch or took the rest of the day to cool off.  Secondly, you are comparing a regular job to what these guys do.  Not the same thing.

If I were in Schoen's (or Daboll's) position, I would know that I made a move that I knew would set Wink off.  I fired his righthand man and his brother without so much as talking to him prior to the firing (especially as I teed up this move by publicly announcing that I thought Wink would stay and how Wink said the Giants were a destination job).  Frankly, if I wanted Wink to curse me out, that would be how I would do it.

Also, Wink has an agent.  So it's not like the team can't communicate with Wink if they want or need to, it simply needs to be done through his agent.

Finally, jobs are jobs, and people are people.  I have managed in a regular environment, a union environment, and in volunteer environments.  So, I have experience in a wide variety of management environments.

Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 10:40:54 AMThat's called enabling bad behavior. Don't feed tantrums. Let them fizzle out. Mature heads will prevail.

Tim,

A coordinator either helps a team win and set a good culture, or they don't.  If they don't, you should want them working for a rival; if they do, then you want them working for you.  I just don't see how you can have it both ways.

Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:39:15 AMI understand.  And, with Bobby Johnson it was different.  Helen Keller could see the OLine was THEE problem on this team.  Just because someone isn't as bad as Bobby Johnson, doesn't mean he can't be fired.  The OLB were not good this year.  Firing the OLB coach is not all that far-fetched.  Secondly, could have been players who had an issue with one or both of the Wilkins and Daboll thought a change need to be made.  Similar thing happened with the Rangers in 2013.  They lost to Bruins.  3 days later, Tortorella was fired.  Reports were the players complained about him in their exit interviews.  That his style was crippling them.

From what I heard the players loved playing for Wink.  If Wilkins was despised by the players (especially considering his role) I don't think we would be hearing that from the defensive players (how much they love Wink and don't want him to go).

Quote from: babywhales on January 10, 2024, 10:38:00 AMIf the team is severed on the offense vs defense it is a huge issue.  Thinking back to the 90's when the defense turned on the Dave brown offense

If that division in anyway is being created by the coaches it's a huge deal

How Daboll kept the team fighting through is actually kind of impressive


All that being said, it's Dabolls ship so he is still to blame and IMO the dysfunction has gone on long enough...

Yup, in the end the HC is the captain of the ship.  That means he ultimately gets to steer it but also gets all the blame for problems on the ship.

Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 10, 2024, 10:36:40 AMNo one ever talks about the position coaches. The buck always stops with the DC, and Wink is talked about plenty.

That said, even Wink has been given a pass the last 2 years. His units have been pretty bad to awful, but I think his reputation and previous performances have insulated him from what would have been rightful negative coverage.

It's not rewriting history to finally assign blame where it is warranted.

Haven't we been talking about position coach Bobby Johnson (O-line) nearly all season?

Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:30:25 AMAgain, you are assuming this is all on Daboll to adjust.  Not saying he gets to be a dictator.  But, at what point can he say enough is enough?  The whole game ball thing has been discussed.  That could have been an acknowledgement that while we are not getting along, I can recognize the job you do and the effort you put in.  Again, it was Martindale who stormed out of the meeting, went to Florida, and is not taking anyone's calls.  How is Daboll and/or Schoen supposed to say, "Ok we have our differences.  Let's put them aside or the good of the team.." if Martindale won't speak to him?

and @T200

Look, I have had people get emotional and curse me out. Unfortunately, it can happen.  For me, it didn't mean an automatic end.  It's never that simple.  You need to consider if what the person contributes outweighs the bad.  You need to consider if there is a different approach that will prevent future blowups.  You need to consider the balance of the good and the bad.  I have found over the decades that the biggest challenge as a manager is to let ego and/or emotions get the better of me.  It's about keeping an eye on the big picture and the primary goals.   If the person under you can help make that happen, you live with the headaches.

Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 10:29:08 AMFirst, how is it damning to not want a talented coach to go to a division rival?

Second, how do you suggest the Giants "make things right" with the person who throws a tantrum, leaves the state, and doesn't return calls because the boss makes a change that was totally within his scope of responsibility to do?

I call it a tantrum because that's what toddlers and children do when they don't get their way. They are not emotionally intelligent to handle their feelings when they don't get their way. As the mature, responsible person, the best way to deal with them is to let them cool off. If they are coddled, they have the upperhand.

Wink is a 70-year-old child emotionally. The only way this works out favorably for him is if Schoen and Daboll show him grace. And that will make Wink look even worse.

Tim,

Here's the catch, if Wink is as bad as you say he is, the Giants should be wanting him to go to Eagles and disrupt things.

Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:25:25 AMDidnt even know who Wilkins was nor did I care until this story came out.

I listen to guys like Nick Falato, Bobby Skinner, and even Carl Banks break down plays and players.   They all knew who was coaching the edge players, and none of them were pointing fingers at the coaching staff, saying that the edge players were poorly coached and didn't seem to know what they should be doing.  The same couldn't be said for Bobby Johnson, not by a long shot.

I will add one more piece to the puzzle:  When Wink parted ways with Baltimore there was zero drama:

QuoteRavens coach John Harbaugh and his now-former defensive coordinator, Don "Wink" Martindale, had discussions over several days about a variety of topics, including Martindale's future with the organization. The expectation among most people with the team was that Martindale would be back for his fifth season leading the Ravens' defense. But when Harbaugh contacted Martindale while the head coach was at organizational meetings hosted in the Bahamas by Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti, it was made clear that a decision had to be made. The Ravens' 2021 season had been over for almost two weeks and Harbaugh needed his coaching staff in place.

The organization typically didn't want its top assistants to be on one-year, lame-duck deals. Martindale was under contract through the 2022 season, but that was it. The Ravens were willing to tack on a team option for 2023. Martindale, however, balked. He wasn't interested in giving the Ravens all the leverage to decide whether he was staying or going ahead of the 2023 season. He wanted to keep his options open.

Neither side budged, leading to a surprising divorce. Harbaugh put out a statement on a Friday night 12 days after the Ravens' season ended saying the team and Martindale were going in "separate directions."

"It was just kind of an opportunity to talk about where we were both going and what was best," Harbaugh said this week. "I think we both came to that decision together, I'd say. That's how I would like to look at it. I feel that way about it, and I think it's turning out great for him. Nothing but admiration for what he's doing."

https://theathletic.com/3690951/2022/10/14/baltimore-ravens-new-york-giants-wink-martindale/?source=emp_shared_article

Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 10, 2024, 10:16:28 AMThis seems like a HUGE leap.

First, as many have noted, our defense ranked in the bottom 5 in the league on many defensive metrics, so not sure how Wilkins - as one of Wink's most trusted assistants - could be viewed as anything else but a failure given the unit's performance.

And second, you mentioned reading everything that's been reported, but that amounts to about 10% of the whole story. As Phil pointed out, there are other reports of Wink / Wilkins going their own way. Reality is, we don't know 90% of what went on in that building, and so drawing conclusions like "Daboll fired Wink's friend because he had to fire his own friend" seems HIGHLY speculative.

As I said (reference the part in bold), over the last two seasons, I haven't heard a single negative comment directed at Wilkins by pundits, media, or fans.  Seems like rewriting history to suggest Wilkins was doing such a terrible job he needed to be fired without so much as consulting with his immediate boss.

Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:13:33 AMYou are assuming they didn't try.  Like in A Few Good Men,

Jessup: What do you think of Lt. Kendrick?
Markenson: Frankly Nathan I don't think my personal opinion of Kendrick matters.
Jessup:  Personally, I think he is an XXXXXXX.  BUT, he is a damn good officer and at the end of the day we see eye to eye on how to run a unit.

In my professional lifetime, I have successfully managed some people who were very good at their jobs and who were an extreme challenge to manage.   It can be done if you want to and you know how to.  It usually requires giving up any semblance of ego.

Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:05:07 AM1) Rather than "I have to fire my best friend so I am firing yours"? Think that is a bit of a stretch.  But, the attitude of, "If I fired my best friend, then anyone an be fired.." would be a fair way to say it.  Best friend or not, business is business.

2) When you say, "The Giants leaking...." to who are you referring?  Daboll, Schoen, Mara, Hanlon? A combo? These reporters have other sources.  They could be getting info from players, other coaches, etc.  Could also be getting it in bits and pieces and putting 2 and 2 together.  Regardless from where it is leaked, there is nothing wrong with defending themselves.  Schwartz could have had this info for weeks, and was just holding it until the time was right.

3) Wasn't it reported that Daboll did speak to Martindale privately.  Maybe he felt Martindale b.s or yes'd him to death just to get rid of him. 

4) agreed.  will happen when you do not win.

5) The defense has been lousy for a while.  1) if they didnt make changes, we would be complaining about that.  Plus, head coaches were fired.  So, coordinators will also go.

6)  Spoke about it in other thread.  If it is true, it is on Mara. 

7) Maybe Mckinney had been speaking up behind closed doors was brushed off.  Then, when asked for the 29th time, "What is going on with the defense" or "Why is the defense struggling.." he snapped and went off. 

8) If wink is the wise old vet, he simply nods his head, goes about his work and discusses it with Daboll. 

9) I can see where some prefer college ranks.  Recruiting who you want rather than have to play the hand you are dealt in the draft.  Some may prefer the increased teaching that happens on a college team as opposed to an NFL team.  Could also be a guy doesn't like dealing with the egos of NFL players.  Do you think the RB coach has more pull in an organization than Barkley?  In a well run college program, players know they are not above any of the coaches.

10) I dont think the time matters.  Think that is splitting hairs.  There is a lot of work to be done on their part, and they may not have expected the Wilkins/martindale thing to blow up like it did.  Or, they were playing that game.

1) Wilkins wasn't just Wink's friend.  Wilkins organized the personnel sending them in and out for Wink on game day.  Wilkins worked with Wink on game plans.   BJ was clearly bad at his job.  That wasn't the case with Wilkins.

2)  Over the years, I have observed and made a note of which "insiders" simply report what the Giants want to put out there and which will report everything regardless of how it makes the team look.  So when I am referring to leaks by NYG (I can't say specifically who does the leaking), I am referring to information that came from people I have seen be team mouthpieces.

3) I have not heard any reports suggesting Daboll and Wink met privately to try and resolve their differences.

5) The defense has been handicapped by weak talent and having to carry a terrible offense (there was no complimentary football).  So I have a hard time saying they were "lousy"

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 10, 2024, 09:57:53 AMI think it cuts both ways. If you're willing to take less on the front end, your growth potential is more. Sure, you may make more as an entry-level position at another franchise, but you stand to make less long-term potentially. This isn't uncommon in most businesses. Some are going to choose the immediate reward and some are going to be incentivized by the potential. I don't see it as disqualifying.

Now, other quality-of-life factors may change that calculus. But purely money-wise, I think it's probably net-neutral (if anything, I bet a number of these guys have already slogged through making very little money as quality control coaches, assistant position group coaches, etc. and are willing to bet on themselves.).

I will make it more concrete.  Right now, the Giants need a really good O-line coach (after a long string of really bad ones).   Being desirable both in destination and pay is how one gets a really good one rather than a string of bad ones.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 10, 2024, 10:00:20 AMBit too late for that. The theatrics of Wink's departure are too out there. And they're just setting themselves up for an in-season firing in 2024 when things go south between the two. Business is business and if Wink quits, then the Giants can block him as they see fit. But he's trying to force their hand to fire him so he can do whatever he wants. The Giants don't owe him anything.

From what I hear, one thing being reported is the Giants want some control over Wink's next destination.  They don't want him to go down the Turnpike and go work for the Eagles.

To me, that is also damning.  If you think so highly of Wink's ability as a DC that you fear him going to a rival, why didn't you make things work with him?

I suspect the owners may be among those that want things to be ironed out


https://x.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1745095210021868017?s=20


https://x.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1745095922688643080?s=20