Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: T200 on September 26, 2023, 09:30:32 AMI understand where you're going, Rich. Everyone has their own communication style. If you want posters who have a certain 'style', you're going to be left with a handful of people here.

But again, you're framing his statement to fit your view. Accept it for what it is and respond accordingly. That's all I'm saying. When someone shows/tells you who they are - believe them.

Tim, the title of this thread:

Daniel Jones does not seem to be involved in in-game adjustments

@Dgoodmantrublu is correct in his assertion about the poster having no way of knowing this.   The poster has literally heard none of the discussions between Jones and the coaching staff. It's literally fact-free speculation. 

Quote from: True Blue on September 26, 2023, 09:28:50 AMLike I said, the plays I have seen he had time to get to ball to them.

If his internal clock is messed up from previous plays and can't shake it off, or forces a pass after 2 seconds cause of protection on previous plays/games, that is strictly a Daniel Jones issue in that instance if the protection is there on a given play.

We can't blame the OL for DJ not making plays in the times they actually give him a pocket, even if it's inconsistent, when plays are there he has to make the throws. 

The problem is that the clock "isn't messed up" if it's correct 90% of the time.  The problem is there is nothing to shake off, because the clock is matching the what the protection is giving.

Quote from: Rambo89 on September 26, 2023, 09:26:29 AMPoint is if you are going to not count something when the receiver doesn't bail out the QB then should the QB get credit when the receiver bails out the QB?  Think it needs to go both ways if you're going to do something like that.

The INT is being "counted".  What Tim is suggesting is that the INT be credited to the party that is responsible.

Quote from: T200 on September 26, 2023, 09:17:04 AMI didn't see any claims of fact other than the OP's own perspective. The thread title says "... does not seem..."

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Agree or disagree but it's not fair to reframe it how you see it and then argue against that point.

Tim,

I am not a big fan of overstated opinions.  Unless he was at the game and was watching the sideline for the full game, there were a lot of claims being made based on probably less than a minute of actual footage as to what was happening on the Giants' sidelines.

I would suggest this was more a belief (a view not supported by fact) than an opinion that is based on fact.  Much like Schoen seeks out players who are smart, tough, and dependable, BBH seeks out posts that are friendly/civil, well-informed, and sound.  I think the standard is higher for a new thread than a response.  We should be striving for high-quality discussion, not threads that are just wild speculation.

Quote from: True Blue on September 26, 2023, 09:15:16 AMI have definitely seen a few plays with Hyatt and Waller wide open and he never even looked their way, plays are definitely being left on the table, even with time to throw.

Part of the problem is when the pass protection is putrid, it forces a QB to have a very short internal clock.  So if DJ's clock is set to 2 seconds, it's going to result in plays being missed.

Quote from: Ed Vette on September 26, 2023, 09:14:10 AMRich, a balanced attack is the key to a lot of these issues. By balanced, I don't just mean Run and Pass but depth of passes and sideline to sideline. The Dallas game was an anomaly because of the turnovers, fumbles and sacks, they were clearly not prepared for that game even though it was a balanced attack run to pass, they needed screen passes and swing passes to keep the rush honest. In AZ the heavy runs set up the passing.

Screen passes would be a great counter.  Unfortunately, it's been many many years since the Giants had an effective screen game.  I have no idea why, but that issue goes back to the Coughlin and Eli Manning days.

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on September 25, 2023, 10:42:46 PMThere is no way the starter of this thread knows what they claim to know.

I have to agree.  Way too much speculation being passed off as fact.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on September 26, 2023, 09:05:43 AMHi,

Three out of four of DJ's interceptions were balls that were thrown well, but after hitting his receiver's right in the hands, they were popped up right in the air and then picked off.

DJ has also faced two of the top defenses in the league, while CJ has not, that needs to be factored in.

It's a long season and we still have 14 more games to go, let's see how this transpires.

That is a great point. DJ really has thrown only one INT, but he is credited with 4. 

Now that I am at a laptop, I will further expand on some of the issues with this comparison:

First, QB comparisons need to be made through the lens of the 3 supporting pillars of QB play.

Using PFF

Giants

Pass-Blocking- 31st
Receiving- 30th

Defenses faced (needed due to small sample size)

Yardage- 3rd, 4th, 26th
Points- 3rd, 5th, 18th


Houston

Pass-Blocking- 20th
Receiving- 10th

defenses faced

Yards- 10th, 25th, 19th
Points- 8th, 19th, 24th

As for coaching/scheme, I think the season is too young to call one way or the other

Fully acknowledging Jones hasn't been perfect and has left some plays on the field, it's not hard to see the support pillars are simply not there.

Receiving

YAC

Campbell (minus-0.6) and Slayton (minus-0.4) are producing fewer yards after catch than the analytics project based on factors such as speed, separation and the ratio of blockers to tacklers in space, according to NextGenStats.

Hodgins (0.1) and Waller (0.1) are contributing negligible gains.

SEPARATION

Of the 135 NFL pass-catchers who have seen at least eight targets, Campbell is the only Giant ranked among the top 97 in terms of separation created (3.4 yards per route).

Giants head coach Brian Daboll reacts on the sideline
Giants head coach Brian Daboll reacts on the sideline.
Charles Wenzelberg/New York Post
Waller (2.6), Slayton (2.0) and Hodgins (1.8) rank No. 98, No. 130 and No. 133, respectively.

PFF ranks Giants receiving 30th

Protection

Jones, whose 11 scrambles are fourth-most in the league, is the quarterback who has faced the most pressures (56) while playing behind three different starting offensive line combinations in as many games.

PFF ranks Giants 31st in pass blocking


Coaching/Scheme


Defenses are copying the successful schemes run by the Eagles in last year's playoff loss to shut down the Giants' offense.


I would argue the biggest issue has been the O-line.  Without some semblance of NFL-caliber protection, it's hard for the receivers to have time to achieve separation.  It's hard for Jones to allow his internal clock to be long enough to make the big plays happen.  As to the coaching, even that can be hampered if your O-line plays as poorly as the Giants O-line has.

This thread is a good example of misusing stats. I discussed this very issue a couple of days ago.   By the assumptions that form the claims made, Stroud is better than Burrow.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on September 25, 2023, 04:56:55 PMMy point is that solving all these issues was never going to happen in two years. They opted to spend on the receiving corps rather than the O-line, which you can argue is a mistake. But also, the plan for the receiving corps was for Waller to be the top guy and everyone else to be somewhat supplemental.

I think Schoen had a 2-3 year plan, but winning 9 games last year messed with it because suddenly they were drafting 25th and had an actual decision to make on either paying Jones or going with a stopgap QB.

I would suggest the failure of Schoen's first draft class had more of an impact than the unexpected victories

Quote from: Philosophers on September 25, 2023, 02:57:10 PMWith Neal, I remember watching a 335 pound player do a squat jump and land like 3 higher on some mats and thought that a ridiculous explosiveness for someone so big.  I thought that would translate into lateral movement.  It has not as he looks slow laterally.  Also, he is getting bull rushed successfully by players 50 pounds lighter.  That should not be happening.  Is he just weak in core strength or is his technique to anchor down really bad?  Either is not good.  He has seemed very coachable and has taken to off-season coaching with Willie Anderson which shows maturity and dedication.  I hope Neal evolves into a good player because right now, my misread of Neal has me questioning everything in my life.  How could I be so wrong?

and @DaveBrown74

while Neal had those videos of athletic feats, perhaps it distracted from the huge red flag that Neal didn't do a single test at the Combine or his Pro Day


https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?f=Evan&l=Neal&i=30894

https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/story/sports/college/football/2022/03/06/alabama-football-evan-neal-nfl-combine-workouts/6954785001/#:~:text=He%20left%20without%20participating%20in,gradual%20trend%20at%20the%20combine.

Quote from: RelaxTension on September 25, 2023, 02:10:11 PMThe team isn't developing the young drafted players.

I said it before the season and will say it again the FO didn't address the oline this past off season in case there wasn't any improvements. So far they haven't but it is only 3 games so there is still hope they can become good enough for stretches to allow the offense to attack down filed and open holes in the run game.

It's wild to see so many of the fans out here now agreeing about how bad Neal has been. 

The Giants lost Nick Gates and Feliciano and only gained JMS.  Considering the line played pretty poorly, they should have added more talent either via the draft or free agency.   Hope (that players develop) is a poor substitute for a plan.

Two McKinney's full comments, he and the defense need to be focusing on TACKLING.   A good tackling defense will be a good defense.  Turnovers are nice but they are often the byproduct of being a sound tackling defense.