Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: AYM on April 21, 2024, 06:42:40 PMI don't know if I agree with this. The 2007 draft directly caused the team to win the Superbowl as every single player heavily contributed.

Going back a couple of years, the 2005 draft was light on picks but gave us Brandon Jacobs, Corey Webster, and Justin Tuck. That was a monster draft too.

The funny thing with the 2007 draft is it gave a great bump during their rookie season, but there wasn't much sustained success



1   CB Aaron Ross   
2   WR Steve Smith   
3   DT Jay Alford
4   LS Zak DeOssie   
5   TE Kevin Boss   
6   OL Adam Koets   
7   DB Michael Johnson   
7   RB Ahmad Bradshaw


Pick for pick I think the 2005 draft class was impressive (they were missing picks due to the Eli Manning trade.  When you look at this draft and the Rams draft classes, I wonder if teams spend too much time focusing on their first pick.  It seems like teams that don't have a first-pick draft are better in the other rounds.


2   Corey Webster   43   DB
3   Justin Tuck   74   DE   
4   Brandon Jacobs   110   RB   
6   Eric Moore   186   DE      

No. 1: San Diego → New York Giants. San Diego traded Manning to the New York Giants in exchange for Philip Rivers and the Giants' third round selection in this draft (#65) and their first- and fifth-round selections in 2005[5]


While the trade certainly wasn't a bad one, we will never know what Rivers or Big Ben (and the extra draft capital) would have done with the Giants.

Quote from: ozzie on April 22, 2024, 08:13:52 AMhttps://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/04/21/bill-belichick-new-york-giants-lawrence-taylor-only-nfl-ready-day-1-rookie-ever/

According to Bill Belichik, LT has been the only rookie that was NFL ready on Day 1

This is absolutely true.   Rookies are not NFL-ready; they need to be developed (by quality coaching staff) into NFL players.   That's the part of the drafting equation so many ignore.

Quote from: kingm56 on April 21, 2024, 02:51:55 PMYou're assuming both QBs would have different trajectories, if paired with different teams.  You have absolutely no way of proving this; yet, you're spouting these theories as facts.  Its equally possible both players would  fail in different situations.  Kenny Pickens had a good situation in Pitt and failed, as do a lot of QBs drafted by good teams.  Perhaps Carr wasn't that good to begin with, which is why he failed to enjoy significant success after Hou. 

You are mixing things up a bit.  What I think is close to a fact is that a QB's development and performance are significantly impacted by the support they receive.  Given examples are just that, examples.  As for Pickens, his issue was character-related, not talent.  How much a given player can or were impacted is a matter of some speculation.

Pickens seems to lack a competitive drive and the toughness to handle adversity, based on what we saw transpire with him.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 21, 2024, 02:20:03 PMI explicitly said "Allen might have taken longer to develop on the Giants than on the Bills."

The support doesn't just speed up or slow down a QBs development it can change a QB's very trajectory.  Just ask David Carr and Daniel Jones.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 21, 2024, 01:42:28 PMCan you show me precisely where I said that?

I have to think you are aware of the concept of subtext.  If you no longer want to discuss the topic, that's okay with me. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 21, 2024, 01:22:36 PMI consider Josh Allen one of the top three or four QB talents in the league and he's still only 27. As of today, he still has more NFL football in his future than in his past. Maybe his development to being a top QB would have taken longer on the Giants, but as I mentioned earlier QBs are not RBs - you aren't drafting a high first round QB with the sense that you only have 5-7 years to work with with him. If you get a legitimately good one it's a 15 year horizon or more. We can agree to disagree on this if you wouldn't take Allen if given the chance to go back.

You can insist the support doesn't impact a QBs development, but the NFL is going the opposite way.  Listen to the podcast I linked in the Daniel Jeremiah 3 Ps of support thread.  The NFL is realizing just how important the support a QB has in terms of development and performance.

Also, I think you are framing our disagreement in a less-than-ideal manner.  Our disagreement is over the importance of a QB's support both in development and performance, not if the Giants would have drafted Josh Allen.   You assume he would be the same with the Giants that he was with the Bills, I contend that is an assumption that is more than likely wrong.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 21, 2024, 01:07:31 PMRich,

I would follow by saying I think the flaw in your assumption is the notion that if a very highly rated QB prospect like Trevor Lawrence is underwhelming in the NFL, it must be because his surrounding cast isn't good enough. I disagree with that. Just because a QB is a top prospect does not mean he will be good in the NFL, and if he isn't, it is not always because he doesn't have enough around him. Some prospects pan out better than others for reasons that extend beyond supporting cast.

The Giants had a bad supporting cast in 2018. If we could go back in time and redo that draft, I think we can agree we wouldn't take Barkley 2nd overall. With the knowledge you have today, whom would you pick if you could redo it? Would you take Josh Allen or Quentin Nelson (or someone else)?

Why do you assume Josh Allen would have thrived with the Giants?

I was meaning to do something like this.  Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall.  So here is just the rankings (the link has the explanations)

1. Minnesota Vikings
Pass blocking: B
Run game: B
Weapons: A
Play-caller: A-
Defense: A-

2. Chicago Bears
Pass blocking: A-
Run game: B
Weapons: A-
Play-caller: C+
Defense: B+

3. Denver Broncos
Pass blocking: B-
Run game: B
Weapons: C+
Play-caller: A
Defense: B

4. Las Vegas Raiders
Pass blocking: B
Run game: C
Weapons: A-
Play-caller: D
Defense: A-

5. New England Patriots
Pass blocking: C
Run game: B
Weapons: C
Play-caller: Unknown
Defense: A

6. New York Giants
Pass blocking: F
Run game: C
Weapons: D (potential F)
Play-caller: B
Defense: C

7. Washington Commanders
Pass blocking: C
Run game: B
Weapons: B-
Play-caller: C
Defense: F


https://theathletic.com/5421402/2024/04/19/2024-nfl-draft-ranking-qb-friendliness/

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 21, 2024, 10:01:40 AMI don't think there's a story there, Rich. The narrative is the same as it has been since the Giants "earned" Pick Six by stinking up the stadium last year. Even we rank amateurs know how important QBs are (especially with today's rules), so any chance you get a shot at someone in whom you have great confidence, conviction and belief, you act on it. 

It's always been clear that the Giants are close enough to the top that if lightning struck, they would be hit by it. If somehow a QB no one expects to fall to six does so, of course they will pounce. I would do it even if Tom Brady were my starting QB, because a proven QB is gold. 

It's just not going to happen because (1) only Daniels IMO is worth taking the shot; (2) no way he falls that far; (3) I seriously doubt the Giants believe ANY of this year's group is a sure thing, so even if they have a different favorite than mine, these points still apply; (4) the Giants can't fail with this pick (regardless of the position he plays) or like @Ed Vette says such a mistake, can set a team back a decade; so (5) they will take a more "conservative" approach by taking seconds from the WR bin rather than thirds or fourth from the QB bin (which is the most dangerous pick a team can make, for obvious reasons).

Bob

Bob,

For what it's worth, the rookie salary structure changed the drafting of the wrong QB narrative, in my opinion.  As long as the team drafting didn't give up too much draft capital (especially future draft capital), the swing and a miss don't cause the damage they once did, as a team can easily move on from their mistake.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 21, 2024, 09:48:31 AMRich: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're NOT saying it has become known that the Giants' choice that year was between Barkley & Josh Allen.  In conjunction with the original post by @Ed Vette  you are giving an example of how one key decision in a draft (espeically if it involves a QB as one of the options) could theoretically have made a huge difference to the Giants' fortunes (and in their overall performance since the year that decision was made).  Bob

Bob, I made my declaration with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.  I appreciate at the time the choice I illustrated was not the one being debated.

By Nick Falato

Any of these prospects excite you?

https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/4/17/24132089/new-york-giants-nfl-draft-preview-defensive-line-options-on-each-day

By Nick Falato

Do any of these prospects excite you?

https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/4/21/24134092/ny-giants-nfl-draft-preview-running-back-options-on-each-day-of-the-draft?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=bigblueview&utm_campaign=socialflow

Yesterday, I posted predictions by insiders saying that the Giants will go WR.  Yesterday I listened to podcasts where Raanon, Connors, and Giants Insider all say the Giants want to draft a QB.  In fairness, they all qualified that it many not be possible or practical, but that was their strong opinion.  Giants Insider is an NYG mouthpiece, while Raanan is a well-connected independent voice.


It's sort of funny; the beat-level reporting seems to indicate QB, while the national-level insiders seem to indicate WR.

I wonder if the local beat writers have a better perspective, or perhaps the vocal majority of Giants fans has skewed their perspective.

Below is McGinn's write-up on the prospect.  The Giants have one of the best D-line coaches in the business.  This is the sort of draft pick that would exploit that strength


 MAASON SMITH, Louisiana State (6-5, 308, 5.03, 3): Third-year junior. "He's just got traits you can't teach," one scout said. "Has the same body type and is the type of athlete that Chris Jones is. He's just not that level player. Plays like a freshman, honestly. I don't think he knows how good he can be. Has a ton of upside and he's a big man. Those guys are hard to find." Started four of nine games as a freshman in 2021 before suffering a torn ACL in the '22 opener. Came back to start 12 games at 3-technique in '23 before declaring. "Should have probably stayed in school," a second scout said. "Wasn't great coming off the injury but most guys get better (later). I think he'll be a better pro than college player." His mother is a doctor and his father owns a company in the petroleum industry. "Parents are professional people," a third scout said. "He might not be mean enough, to be quite honest. Got a lot of God-given talent. I'm gonna roll the dice with him. He was the No. 1 schoolboy defensive tackle in the country. He missed all of '22, comes back for '23 and there's been a coaching change in the meantime. The D-line coach (Jimmy Lindsey) gets a brain tumor and they cycle through about five different line coaches. They didn't know if they were a two-gap team, a one-gap team, a twist team. Truthfully, he's a five-star who was going to play three years and head to the league no matter what. I think this year was all sort of geared to, 'Hey, I'm just going to survive and get through the season.' He doesn't play hard all the time. He can play 3- or 5-technique. Very smart. He has real, real talent." Finished with 47 tackles (9 ½ for loss) and 6 ½ sacks. Longest arms (35) at the position but also the smallest hands (8 ½). "He doesn't play with passion," a fourth scout said. "He's big. He's got range. But I can't wait to see the team that takes him. I think he stinks." From Houma, La.