Big Blue Huddle

We have more 'red and blue chip' players than we have had for quite a while but we also have big questions at key starting roles. Like most rosters it is in the balance as to whether the strengths elevate us or the weaknesses deflate us.

If the new coaches and veteran OL do their jobs professionally the roster should be league average, subject to QB play. I can see a path if enough goes right to give us sound enough foundations to compete 2025 and beyond assuming solid QB play but I will believe it when I see it.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:45:19 AMThe Giants have been run the same way for decades.  The GM is the ultimate decider, but the owner shares his views and opinions.  Frankly, considering that Mara grew up on Giants football, that doesn't seem like the worst thing.   The man learned football from greats like George Young, Bill Parcells, and Tom Coughlin.  It's not like he is some wealthy stockbroker who thinks his financial savvy easily translates to the football world.

I have heard people in the know fault Mara's loyalty, and I don't disagree.  Ronnie Barnes is the poster boy for people the team has kept past their sell-by-data.   Still, I hear far more unfair and unfounded criticism, in terms of conspiracy theories (I am not a fan of conspiracy theories), than he deserves.

I didn't like the Yankees owner as a person. But I liked the results. I'm a fan. All I want from the owner of the team I root for is results. Im not nor never will be his friend.

Quote from: FL GMAN on Today at 09:42:22 AMI find it amazing that pro scouts can view prospects this highly drafted so differently. I thought the Giants nailed the draft 2 years ago with Neal and Thibs. I hope both improve but as of now they are not what I thought.

Former Giants scout and head of Bears scouting Greg Gabriel likes to say if you put 5 scouts in a room and run some film, you will get 5 different reports.  Scouting is an inexact science.  I think part of the problem is you expect scouts to be experts at scouting every position.  I don't think that's a realistic expectation, as every position requires scouting drastically different traits.  Still, that's the way the NFL has always done it, and logistically (in terms of going to schools during the season) it's the most practical way.

If it were up to me I would be having scouts scouting a handful of positions (the ones they do best) rather than having them do all positions and have them scouting regions of the country.

Quote from: katkavage on Today at 09:37:25 AMIt's not a wild conspiracy to think that Mara was very much aware and in consultation with the GM on the first pick in the draft. And that the QB search was always a smokescreen. And that contract for Jones? Not done without consulting Mara? Please. He's not a cartoon villain. Just not a very good team owner in terms of success based on his own hirings to start with.

The Giants have been run the same way for decades.  The GM is the ultimate decider, but the owner shares his views and opinions.  Frankly, considering that Mara grew up on Giants football, that doesn't seem like the worst thing.   The man learned football from greats like George Young, Bill Parcells, and Tom Coughlin.  It's not like he is some wealthy stockbroker who thinks his financial savvy easily translates to the football world.

I have heard people in the know fault Mara's loyalty, and I don't disagree.  Ronnie Barnes is the poster boy for people the team has kept past their sell-by-data.   Still, I hear far more unfair and unfounded criticism, in terms of conspiracy theories (I am not a fan of conspiracy theories), than he deserves.

I find it amazing that pro scouts can view prospects this highly drafted so differently. I thought the Giants nailed the draft 2 years ago with Neal and Thibs. I hope both improve but as of now they are not what I thought.

In the 2022 offseason, most considered Daniel Jones a dead man walking.   

Consider:

1) The Giants passed on exercising DJ's 5th-year option

2) The Giants signed Tyrod Taylor who many fans claimed was as good or better than Jones (he did have a Pro Bowl to his resume)

3) Jones had injury issues and needed to prove he could stay healthy

4) Worst of all, Jones was going to have to prove himself behind a mediocre, at best, O-line with no significant receiving targets.  He would get a bit of a tangential boost from Barkley (who already lost something after his major knee injury)

Everyone was writing Daniel Jones off, there was much talk about the QBs in the draft. Only Daniel Jones decided he wasn't ready to be dead and buried.  He dragged his under-talented team to the playoffs and beat the 13-1 Vikings in the hostile Minnesota stadium.  He earned himself a solid contract.

From Daniel's perspective, this is just deja vue all over again.   I am not suggesting that Jones will stay healthy and knock it out of the park.  I am just suggesting we shouldn't be shocked if Jones plays like a franchise QB and takes the team to the playoffs again while at least staying healthy enough.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 09:14:01 AMIt's amazing how, in some fans' eyes, John Mara has become this cartoon villain.  It's sort of like what we see league-wide with Rodger Goodell.   The reality is that Goodell suffers the wrath of much of the NFL fanbase, but in reality, he is just the face of the decision made by the owners.

If you want to hold Mara accountable for Gettleman and Joe Judge, that's reasonable.  However, the amount of wild conspiracy theories that are created around Mara and what he does as co-owner of the Giants is truly remarkable.

It's not a wild conspiracy to think that Mara was very much aware and in consultation with the GM on the first pick in the draft. And that the QB search was always a smokescreen. And that contract for Jones? Not done without consulting Mara? Please. He's not a cartoon villain. Just not a very good team owner in terms of success based on his own hirings to start with.

Why is it that CBS is willing to shake up their Football Sunday Studio Team but Fox has the same over the hill guys every season since the mid-aughts? Bradshaw is getting old and the way Jimmie Johnson pointed and screamed at the cameras during the Cowboys blowout loss to GB was a despicable act.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 29, 2024, 10:09:28 AMThe attempt here is at a realistic view of what this team could be next year or two. Let me know if you agree or it's overly optimistic 

So I'd like to touch on each unit and see if we of Big Blue Folk Lore can come to a consensus:


OFFENSE

QB: Big unknown for many and rightly so. Flashes of brilliance but supporting cast (WR, OL and OL coaching) has been undoubtedly one of the worst combinations in the league his entire tenure as Giants QB. Does this change, mercifully and finally? See below.

WR: Stark reality stat: The last giants receiver to break 1,000 was Odell in 2018 with 1,052 yards. In fact, no receiver has gotten more than 751 yards in that time span (Darius Slayton 2020). In the modern passing era those are ridiculously low numbers. But now another much ballyhooed LSU WR has been added to the fold.  The recent history has been fantastic: OBJ, J'Marr, Justin Jefferson. Now Malik Nabers. These guys come in and are often day 1 starters who also are 1100+ yard WRs year 1. We have a 3rd year Wan'Dale who did more than flash last year and a 2nd year Hyatt who last year proved at minimum his speed has to be seriously accounted for and requires safety help over the top. Slayton the vet of the group is steady if unspectacular and Hodgins is a nice possession guy and red zone threat.

TE: Waller is probably retiring, big hit here. However under Wellman hopefully Bellinger slims back down a bit and regains some of his lost agilty/speed. He was not as agile last year. There is a thing as too much muscle. Also Theo seems to be a super intriguing option who has some serious upside in the passing game and as a blocker.

OL: Always the million dollar question. Personally I think coaching had just as much to do with it as poor talent the last few years. However Bracillo could be the best guy we've had in here in like ages. Schoen signed a couple guys who are very good pass blockers. JMS was supposedly the best Center in last year's draft and super smart. I think he develops under Carmen. Neal I have no idea. But you hope he can be at least either a half decent RT or half decent RT and Eluemenor can play the other position next to him. No first year players on the line either this year which is a good thing too.

RB: Yes we lost Barkley to the dreaded Eagles. Let's move on. Daboll's offense, is more a passing offense. Singletary is a low key effective Running Back. We got two stabs with Dante Miller and Tracy for an electric one that can be used in an RBBC. Still early, but Gray to me didn't show me much.




DEFENSE


D-Line/Edge: Dexter Lawrence , one of best in business. No more Wink weird DL responsibilities . More traditional DL approach under Bowen. We don't know if Bowen is a product of Vrabel or also an effective DC but in theory his philosophies sound well sound. Burns was a monstrous addition to add to Thibs on other side. Ojulari also is a plus pass rusher but just can't stay on the field. Depth on DL is questionable with Riley and Davidson showing flashes but still very much unknowns. Losing Robinson here hurts a bit but the top end talent could be ferocious. Patterson is a good DL coach who will get to work them in more traditional pass rush and run responsibilities under Bowen (in theory).

LB: Not as premium an impact position but we have a keeper in Okereke now. A heady , smart 3 down sideline to sideline guy who is a still good fit in Bowen's defense. McFadden had some bad missed tackles/reads last year but in the new more straight forward traditional defense of Bowen he should be better this year. Beaver who flashed bigtime might be healthy again. Not a terrible group and with all the sub-packages it will really come down to having one good one which we do and maybe a 2nd one like Beavers or McFadden.

CB: Love Banks and while he may be better in man think he can play some zone too. He will be a 2nd year player now. Problem is there is little veteran presence and not much after Banks. McCloud is down low a decent player but we need more especially when teams base is often 3 and sometimes 4 WR sets. Andru Phillips is interesting but just a rookie. Robinson can't stay healthy. Flott is still kinda an unknown. I thnk if one unit is crying out for a veteran post draft addition it's this one. There are a few options still out there like Gillmore, Peterson and Weatherspoon. One of those options potentially would stabilize the backend.

S: Tyler Nubin if he is everything this front office and scouting department think he is could be the steal of the draft. 13 INTs don't happen by accident in college football. He seems like a perfect fit for a split zone scheme. Extrmely smart and instinctual. Has good size. Pinnock and Belton aren't great but aren't terrible either. Adding Nubin to this mix could make this unit quite dynamic.



Conclusion: Bowen is an unknown. Is he a product of Vrabel only? Is he the Eric Bienemy of DCs? DJ is an unknown too but if healthy, the missing ingredients that QBs normally need to convert talent to actual on field production is apparently there this year.  OL coaching #1, a WR group that could have a true WR1 even though he is a rookie and a half decent cast along the offensive line. Defense has some nice pieces but is still quite young in some areas. Needs a vet presence or two especially at Safety and probably DT.

When you add all this one could argue this team has quite a bit more overall collective talent than the Daboll team in 2022. That team was coached extremely well and miximized it's abilities despite poor OL coaching and talent. That team also won 9 games and a playoff game!  If this team is coached up well offensively and defensively and DJ is a QB that can play well with better parts around him, I could see it surprise a bit.  Daboll in my mind  proved he is capable of coaching up an offense. If he can do more with less and adjust to the parts around him like 2022, I think now with a better OL that won't short circuit what he is trying to do on offense and the #1 WR potentially in the fold this team could be better than it's 2022 predecessor.




Realistic or overly optimistic? 

THANK YOU for taking the time, and investing much effort, into synthesizing your analysis which all of us, including me, greatly appreciate.

Everyone here offers fair opinions but commends your body of work.

My only feedback would be to "fully" complete your analysis by including the special teams. An All-Pro Kicker will be returning from knee surgery and, as one who had total knee replacement on the same knee as Gano's surgically repaired knee, it is far from automatic that he will return to his amazing self. In fact, I'm concerned he might go the way of Brad Daluiso following his knee surgery in 1999. Time will tell. But one of the more pleasing stories of 2023 was the overall improvement of the Scottish Hammer, Jamie Gillen. Every aspect of his game improved from his first year with the club and the hope is that he will continue to improve. Adding Gunner Olszewski to the team was the best in-season signing the Giants have made since Ottis Anderson in 1986. Think about that.

You have transformed our space here in a positive way in just a short period of time. Consider yourself a friend with all of us and certainly with me.

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts; please keep posting with confidence!

Peace!

I hope Phil still does podcasting, as I think he still has things of value to say


https://x.com/PhilSimmsQB/status/1784943898923524327