Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 01:20:05 PMHe was injured during long stretches of both seasons and only played in a total of 20 games counting 2 playoff games.

That issue doesn't help build optimism.

One of my fears is that we grab the top OT. And like Neal, who made his bones playing the left side of the line, so are the top OT's in this draft, all who have made their bones on the left side: ie,, Alt, Fashanu, Latham, Mims, etc., and they will likely go in the top 20 picks. Do we really want to take a chance on another "great" LT and assume he will transfer to RT without a hitch? Difficult to know

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 01:20:05 PMHe was injured during long stretches of both seasons and only played in a total of 20 games counting 2 playoff games.

Injured is not getting it done. I know that sounds unfair but sometimes that's the trajectory of some careers. I've really had my fill of those "when he's healthy" players. The most important ability is availability. There's a reason why guys like Darren Waller are affordable.

It's hard to say. The injuries set him back a great deal. Also, his Coach doesn't seem to be able to develop Ezeudu, Peart, McKeathan and JMS either. He's going to get another crack at it according to Schoen. So even the men who work with him every day don't know.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2023, 01:38:06 PMIt's hard to say. The injuries set him back a great deal. Also, his Coach doesn't seem to be able to develop Ezeudu, Peart, McKeathan and JMS either. He's going to get another crack at it according to Schoen. So even the men who work with him every day don't know.

Way off topic, but in hindsight and in light the video we discussed recently, it was probably a bad move to dismiss Pat Flaherty to begin with.

Quote from: TONKA56 on December 22, 2023, 02:18:50 PMWay off topic, but in hindsight and in light the video we discussed recently, it was probably a bad move to dismiss Pat Flaherty to begin with.

Pat has excellent but I think he's retired. What did you think of Colombo?

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2023, 03:36:03 PMPat has excellent but I think he's retired. What did you think of Colombo?

According to Wikipedia Pat is the offensive line coach for Rutgers.

I don't have much of a feeling on Columbo, however I believe he is highly regarded by his peers and has some good credentials and a strong resume...and seeing on how the Joe Judge situation played out I'm feeling like we have our answer. 

Quote from: Painter on December 22, 2023, 01:04:23 PMBetter to not choke on your enmity toward Jones, Jess lest the economic reality of the situation gives you apnea.

Whether or not Neal's shortcoming to date reflects poor coaching, or some sort of misjudgment, or neither, is yet uncertain. However, as there is no denying that no matter who has been injured, when and where, and the number of different lineups played, the Oline's performance has been absolutely miserable as it so often has been when relying on subpar talent.

Thus, the issue and the question posed is simply whether ORT is position of need? Should we assume that you think not, or simply haven't decided, or that it's not even worth discussing outside of whomever are the QBs and RBs impacted?

Cheers!

It's amazing that you automatically assumed me not thinking Jones is a good football player was the reason that I posted that. Jones had nothing to do with it other than being an example of a player on the team, of which there are multiple examples of the fan base calling the player a bust and not giving them the appropriate time to develop. I list more since Jones can't get mentioned here without people getting in their feelings. Jones has just been given the most time which is glaring considering how poorly he's played.

Micah McFadden
Thibodeaux
Wandale Robinson
Flott

The list goes on of players that people called Busts immediately that are actually getting better as the season progresses because they are only In year 1 or year 2.

The issue with Neal is technique. The organization knew they were getting a monster of a man with feet issues and occasional issues with speed rushers when they drafted him. Instead of catering to what Neal did well at Alabama, Johnson had him learn a completely different technique his rookie season to what he did his entire college career. Then when that didn't work, Johnson and coaches had Neal try a completely different technique this past offseason, and while he was progressing in games this season it wasn't at a fast enough rate. Johnson is almost exclusively responsible for destroying the kid so far and his lazy coaching to have all their guys do something a specific way  because its easier to coach, instead of adapting to what his players did extremely well and using that.

Look at tape from Neal in college vs Neal now, his technique is in shambles because of Johnson. It's why the oline is so bad and why not one person has gotten better under him.

They should be using Neal like Orlando Brown Jr or Trent Williams, instead Johnsons just getting a check and ruining our line... So yes Neal has not played well, but whose fault is that really? Obviously a little on him but man kid was dominant for years, and suddenly can't play at all? That's fundamentals and coaching.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 04:25:41 PMIt's amazing that you automatically assumed me not thinking Jones is a good football player was the reason that I posted that. Jones had nothing to do with it other than being an example of a player on the team, of which there are multiple examples of the fan base calling the player a bust and not giving them the appropriate time to develop. I list more since Jones can't get mentioned here without people getting in their feelings. Jones has just been given the most time which is glaring considering how poorly he's played.

Micah McFadden
Thibodeaux
Wandale Robinson
Flott

The list goes on of players that people called Busts immediately that are actually getting better as the season progresses because they are only In year 1 or year 2.

No need to explain, no excuse necessary. You are entitled to your bias no matter how unrelenting is its focus or whether or not it serves you well. Indeed, it was the latter that I thought worth your attention.

Cheers!

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2023, 04:57:44 PMThe issue with Neal is technique. The organization knew they were getting a monster of a man with feet issues and occasional issues with speed rushers when they drafted him. Instead of catering to what Neal did well at Alabama, Johnson had him learn a completely different technique his rookie season to what he did his entire college career. Then when that didn't work, Johnson and coaches had Neal try a completely different technique this past offseason, and while he was progressing in games this season it wasn't at a fast enough rate. Johnson is almost exclusively responsible for destroying the kid so far and his lazy coaching to have all their guys do something a specific way  because its easier to coach, instead of adapting to what his players did extremely well and using that.

Look at tape from Neal in college vs Neal now, his technique is in shambles because of Johnson. It's why the oline is so bad and why not one person has gotten better under him.

They should be using Neal like Orlando Brown Jr or Trent Williams, instead Johnsons just getting a check and ruining our line... So yes Neal has not played well, but whose fault is that really? Obviously a little on him but man kid was dominant for years, and suddenly can't play at all? That's fundamentals and coaching.

I believe there's much merit in this post. To pile on, Dab's has responsibility to have the right staff on hand. 

None of us know whose fault it has been that Neal has thus far failed to meet expectations. We may guess all we want, rightly or wrongly but hardly contrary to an already formed bias. Then again, we should not lose sight of the fact that earlier scouting and evaluating biases can be the area of greatest failure.

Cheers!

why do i get the feeling that if/When they finally switch neal to guard he becomes a pro bowl level talent? the fact they havent done this yet is mind boggling. you have to put your guys in position to succeed. we wont even try it.

Quote from: nb587 on December 22, 2023, 11:31:32 AMKeep this in mind if you think drafting an OT in the 1st round fixes the problem.  I would bet, without having seen of the 1st round prospects, that none of them are graded as high as Neal was coming out of Alabama or have scouting reports as good as his.  Not saying we don't need help or should have an insurance policy but a possible solution is bringing in a Mike Remmers type or even using Pugh in his natural position as a backup next year if Neal fails again.  Hopefully, they find a top assistant OL coach.

Also, to those who keep repeating the mantra that Neal needs to be moved inside.  Is there any information that tells you he can play inside? Has he ever played inside?  Are there many good guards who are as tall as him? Does anyone know?

Pugh has been awful this year, so I don't think moving him to a more difficult, more important position on the OL is the answer.

And no, there is no evidence that Neal can play inside. But there's ample evidence that he can't play outside, so the thinking is at least give him a shot at OG before completely moving in from him. But the longer they stick with him at OT, the longer the OL will continue to suck.

Evan Neal seems to have multiple issues.  One is when an edge attacks wide, he can't get to the spot quickly enough to stop him.  Is it that his snap anticipation/reaction is too slow or he moves too slowly to get to the spot he needs to be at?  Not sure.

On inside rushes, I see him getting pushed back.  How can a mountain of a man lose on an inside move so easily?  Is he not moving inside quickly enough and sinking down to a position of strength?  If Neal is deficient at these after two years, how did the Giants miss it in their evaluation of him?  Giants need to fire Johnson and hire a new OL coach, but if Neal can't fix these problems, he needs to be replaced and the Giants need to move on.  We simply can't accept such a deficiency if we want to have an effective passing attack.  He is not getting beaten.  He is getting beaten badly.