Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 12:02:03 PMChris,

Did you see the post I made a week or two ago where Daboll was very critical of the people claiming Jones was missing WRs etc because the people doing the reviews (in Daboll's opinion) lacked all the information about the play.  The reviewer would point to a wide receiver (for example), but be unaware the receiver ran the wrong route and that the QB wouldn't be looking there.

When you listen to outsiders breaking down Giants "film" you have to appreciate they are doing so with maybe 80% of the information they need to be accurate

I did but lets stay on topic.


Empty protection is a basic pre snap read,  6>5 or 7>5.

Certainly simple enough for a smart Duke grad who is a student of the game of football (both comments I complete agree with).  Yet he failed to recognize it,  as such failed to even look in the direction of it; resulting in sack instead of throwing to the hot read.   

Maybe other intangibles exist within a QB's mental game that are not accounted for in a Wonderlic Test Score?

This is not assuming QB progressions or if a route was correct as was the case on your referenced topic. 

Overhang pressure is an extremely basic pre snap read, this also has nothing to do with the Daboll's  comment on wrong routes.


Ask Tricia, Nick Falato and Bobby Skinner if Daniel Jones is :
1- In buffalo how would you describe Daboll's offense on degrees of complexity ?
2- Are the Giants running the same system as Daboll ran in Buffalo?
3- In Daboll's first year did Jones run a simple or complicated offense?
4- In Daboll's year 2 was Jones asked to grow and take on more complexity and how did he handle it?

Get their answers and lets revisit the conversation.

Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 12:41:50 PMI did but lets stay on topic.


Empty protection is a basic pre snap read,  6>5 or 7>5.

Certainly simple enough for a smart Duke grad who is a student of the game of football (both comments I complete agree with).  Yet he failed to recognize it,  as such failed to even look in the direction of it; resulting in sack instead of throwing to the hot read.   

Maybe other intangibles exist within a QB's mental game that are not accounted for in a Wonderlic Test Score?

This is not assuming QB progressions or if a route was correct as was the case on your referenced topic. 

Overhang pressure is an extremely basic pre snap read, this also has nothing to do with the Daboll's  comment on wrong routes.


Ask Tricia, Nick Falato and Bobby Skinner if Daniel Jones is :
1- In buffalo how would you describe Daboll's offense on degrees of complexity ?
2- Are the Giants running the same system as Daboll ran in Buffalo?
3- In Daboll's first year did Jones run a simple or complicated offense?
4- In Daboll's year 2 was Jones asked to grow and take on more complexity and how did he handle it?

Get their answers and lets revisit the conversation.

Chris, when it comes to tape breakdown (particularly the Giants), I have absolute faith in only two outsiders.  This is due to my point earlier about the limitations of outsiders to be fully aware of the facts.


Carl Banks- because he can talk to the coaches, and when he breaks down tape before or does not speak to coaches, he discusses the limitations of his conclusions.

Greg Cosell-  The man is extremely careful in qualifying his opinions and clearly stating the limitations of his observations.  Speaking of the man back in July 2023 he had this to say about Jones, ""I've heard really good things about how smart he is"


Pat doesn't do tape breakdowns, but I enjoy listening to and watching Bobby and Nick. However, I don't take what either person says in blind faith because I know they don't have all the information they need to draw completely accurate conclusions (they will be right more than they are wrong, but they simply can't be perfect).

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 01:43:50 PMChris, when it comes to tape breakdown (particularly the Giants), I have absolute faith in only two outsiders.  This is due to my point earlier about the limitations of outsiders to be fully aware of the facts.


Carl Banks- because he can talk to the coaches, and when he breaks down tape before or does not speak to coaches, he discusses the limitations of his conclusions.

Greg Cosell-  The man is extremely careful in qualifying his opinions and clearly stating the limitations of his observations.  Speaking of the man back in July 2023 he had this to say about Jones, ""I've heard really good things about how smart he is"


Pat doesn't do tape breakdowns, but I enjoy listening to and watching Bobby and Nick. However, I don't take what either person says in blind faith because I know they don't have all the information they need to draw completely accurate conclusions (they will be right more than they are wrong, but they simply can't be perfect).

I'm not blindly listening to any individual and to remove them I specifically poised a question that exists in the absence of defensive pressure, absence of scheme  and analyst interpretation.

Presnap reads, this is as simple as simple gets; overhang pressure and empty protection.

How does a smart Duke graduate, 5th year starter make incorrect elementary pre snap reads ?

Maybe, just maybe Wonderlic Index doesn't account for all the intangibles associated with intellect and the situations it is applied...


The consensus idea was an extra , but fair enough. Maybe we can ask Patricia to ask Banks

Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 02:23:22 PMI'm not blindly listening to any individual and to remove them I specifically poised a question that exists in the absence of defensive pressure, absence of scheme  and analyst interpretation.

Presnap reads, this is as simple as simple gets; overhang pressure and empty protection.

How does a smart Duke graduate, 5th year starter make incorrect elementary pre snap reads ?

Maybe, just maybe Wonderlic Index doesn't account for all the intangibles associated with intellect and the situations it is applied...


The consensus idea was an extra , but fair enough. Maybe we can ask Patricia to ask Banks

Chris,

Why do you think Greg Cosell was hearing how smart Daniel Jones is?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 11:15:32 AM@babywhales

Rather than just talking about people's opinions, we do have some factual data in the form of the Wonderlic test score.  The Wonderlic measures the following:


Yes, the Wonderlic test measures processing speed. The Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT), also known as the Wonderlic test, is a psychometric assessment that assesses the test-taker's problem-solving skills and aptitude. The WPT has 50 questions and a time limit of 12 minutes. It assesses verbal, numerical, and spatial skills, and how quickly and well you can think. The WPT has four categories: General Knowledge, Verbal Reasoning, Abstract Reasoning, and Numerical Reasoning


The 2019 Wonderlic scores were leaked for QBs:


Quarterbacks
Ryan Finley: 43
Gardner Minshew: 42
Daniel Jones: 37
Easton Stick: 32
Clayton Thorson: 32
Trace McSorley: 31
Will Grier: 30
Brett Rypien: 28
Jarrett Stidham: 27
Drew Lock: 26
Tyree Jackson: 25
Dwayne Haskins: 25
Sean McGuire: 22
Kyler Murray: 20


Again, it's very hard to believe the claims that Jones needed things "dumb down"

Perhaps they should change the Wonderlic test so that you have to give your answers while 900 pounds of pass rusher are bearing down on you, LOL.

I'm not sure what that list is supposed to demonstrate as the QB closest to demonstrating that he is a franchise QB is at the bottom.

Also, historically there are guys who never achieved franchise status with very high scores (Fitzpatrick and Wentz) and guys who are Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers with mediocre scores (Favre and Mahomes).

As to Cosell's comment, he said he had heard he was smart.  That is very different than saying something like: his play on the field shows mastery of a complex offense and excellent processing.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 02:29:08 PMChris,

Why do you think Greg Cosell was hearing how smart Daniel Jones is?

You have failed to address much of anything I have said.  You have however responded with logical fallacy after logical fallacy.
You ignore direct questions.
I agree Jones is smart.  I have said it over and over, he is very smart Duke grad.  I simply elaborated that he makes very simple mistakes in key moments in the absence of pressure.
But you brought up Greg Cosell, Greg Cosell said of Jones after the 2022 season. 
I feel like the spoon feed him (jones), watching the film I feel like they told him if you see an opening run. I (Greg) feel like they wanted him running more and throwing....

spoon feed is defined by  provide (someone) with so much help or information that they do not need to think for themselves.

Greg's words based on his film review.

He goes on to say he watched tons of Buffalo film and Daboll has a vast intermediate and vertical attack in his offense he choose not to use with Jones.

I am glad you choose Greg Cosell as the approved expert.  His 43 years with NFL films would certainly support that. Without the benefit of getting to ask him any follow up questions he is supporting everything I have been saying.

 

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 01, 2024, 03:04:11 PMPerhaps they should change the Wonderlic test so that you have to give your answers while 900 pounds of pass rusher are bearing down on you, LOL.

I'm not sure what that list is supposed to demonstrate as the QB closest to demonstrating that he is a franchise QB is at the bottom.

Also, historically there are guys who never achieved franchise status with very high scores (Fitzpatrick and Wentz) and guys who are Hall of Famers or future Hall of Famers with mediocre scores (Favre and Mahomes).

As to Cosell's comment, he said he had heard he was smart.  That is very different than saying something like: his play on the field shows mastery of a complex offense and excellent processing.

Why I love Cosell is he is the epitome of intellectual honesty.  Had the tape shown that the Giants had dumbed things down for Daniel Jones, he would have been sure to add that qualifier.  Since he didn't, it's fair to assume the tape and what he heard wasn't at odds.



Some of the more prolific retired quarterback Wonderlic scores are here:
Eli Manning: 39
Steve Young: 33
Phillip Rivers: 30
Troy Aikman: 29
Matt Hasselback: 29
Peyton Manning: 28
Brett Favre: 22
Wonderlic scores of some of the more notable quarterbacks currently in the NFL include:
Ryan Fitzpatrick: 48
Carson Wentz: 40
Matthew Stafford: 38
Josh Allen: 37
Aaron Rodgers: 35
Ryan Tannehill: 34
Joe Burrow: 34
Tom Brady: 33
Kirk Cousins: 33
Russell Wilson: 28
Dak Prescott: 25
Ben Roethlisberger: 25
Patrick Mahomes: 24

https://wonderlictestpractice.com/quarterback-wonderlic-scores/

Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:14:25 PMFunny thing Rich,

you have failed to address much if anything I have said. you have responded with logical fallacy after logical fallacy.
You ignore direct questions.
I agree Jones is smart.  I have said it over and over, he is very smart Duke grad.  I simply elaborated that he makes very simple mistakes in key moments in the absence of pressure.
But you brought up Greg Cosell, Greg Cosell said of Jones after the 2022 season. 
I feel like the spoon feed him (jones), watching the film I feel like they told him if you see an opening run. I (Greg) feel like they wanted him running more and throwing....

spoon feed is defined by  provide (someone) with so much help or information that they do not need to think for themselves.

Greg's words based on his film review.

He goes on to say he watched tons of Buffalo film and Daboll has a vast intermediate and vertical attack in his offense he choose not to use with Jones.

I am glad you choose Greg Cosell as the approved expert.  His 43 years with NFL films would certainly support that. Without the benefit of getting to ask him any follow up questions he is supporting everything I have been saying.

 

Chris,

Let us be accurate here.   When Cosell says he hears how smart Jones is, he refers to football intelligence, not general intelligence.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:16:10 PMChris,

Let us be accurate here.  When Cosell says he hears how smart Jones is, he refers to football intelligence, not general intelligence.

Once again, avoiding the issue. 

But to you point and i will say it again, Jones is smart and as I have stated in this thread that includes Jones being football smart.  Jones is academic football smart though, white board smarts. Sitting talking shop, X's and O's with Gruden  he clearly knows his stuff. 

On the field, real time processing at the line pre snap and in the play smarts not so much.  They are not the same. 

If you produce anyone saying as much it will be the first time I have ever heard Jones's in game mental football processing is that of a smart QB. I would love to hear the reference if it is out there. The film does not show that nor has any film review I have ever heard of or heard refenced related to Jones.

It is crazy what happens when expectation and pressure change the reality for peoples thinking processes. With Jones there is clearly a difference.




 

Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:28:21 PMOnce again, avoiding the issue.

But to you point and i will say it again, Jones is smart and as I have stated in this thread that includes Jones being football smart.  Jones is academic football smart though, white board smarts. Sitting talking shop, X's and O's with Gruden  he clearly knows his stuff.

On the field, real time processing at the line pre snap and in the play smarts not so much.  They are not the same.

If you produce anyone saying as much it will be the first time I have ever heard Jones's in game mental football processing is that of a smart QB. I would love to hear the reference if it is out there. The film does not show that nor has any film review I have ever heard of or heard refenced related to Jones.

It is crazy what happens when expectation and pressure change the reality for peoples thinking processes. With Jones there is clearly a difference.




 

Imagine taking a time-based test.  Now imagine 45% of the time,, 2 seconds after you start to read each question, you can smacked in the back with a 2 by 4.  Do you think that might impact your test score?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:14:34 PMWhy I love Cosell is he is the epitome of intellectual honesty.  Had the tape shown that the Giants had dumbed things down for Daniel Jones, he would have been sure to add that qualifier.  Since he didn't, it's fair to assume the tape and what he heard wasn't at odds.

Greg Cosell said in 2022 Jones was spoon feed the offense.

To me spoon feed means, given the offense in increments as to reduce the need to think


What exactly do you think Cosell means by that?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:30:23 PMImagine taking a time-based test.  Now imagine 45% of the time,, 2 seconds after you start to read each question, you can smacked in the back with a 2 by 4.  Do you think that might impact your test score?

Agreed, but Jones makes mistakes without the pressure, before the play even starts. Presnap mistakes, you can not blame that on the line, on pressure or anyone else.

Now imagine a football smart QB who doesn't process information correctly in the face of pressure as well as the absence of pressure, stop imagining because that is Daniel Jones.

Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:31:22 PMGreg Cosell said in 2022 Jones was spoon feed the offense.

To me spoon feed means, given the offense in increments as to reduce the need to think


What exactly do you think Cosell means by that?

I would need context and when I searched for it all I could find was this:


"At his core, he's a pocket quarterback who is at his best playing with timing and rhythm," Cosell said. "And he showed that pretty well on third down. He was very poised in the pocket, he knew where to go with the ball.

"In fact, I watched all of his third down drop backs. He was really efficient in the pocket, decisive with his reads and throws and the new coaching staff, that's probably pretty exciting for them. I think when you watch Jones' tape, you kind of feel like there's something to work with and we can make this guy a quarterback."

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2022/07/26/greg-cosell-offers-his-evaluation-new-york-giants-qb-daniel-jones/

Quote from: babywhales on April 01, 2024, 03:35:21 PMAgreed, but Jones makes mistakes without the pressure, before the play even starts. Can not blame that on the line or anyone else.

Now imagine a football smart QB who doesn't process information correctly in the face of pressure as well as the absence of pressure, stop imagining because that is Daniel Jones.

Once you are getting smacked with a two-by-four that frequently (and not knowing which questions you are going to get smacked), even when you aren't smacked, you will not be able to concentrate.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 01, 2024, 03:14:34 PMSome of the more prolific retired quarterback Wonderlic scores are here:
Eli Manning: 39
Steve Young: 33
Phillip Rivers: 30
Troy Aikman: 29
Matt Hasselback: 29
Peyton Manning: 28
Brett Favre: 22
Wonderlic scores of some of the more notable quarterbacks currently in the NFL include:
Ryan Fitzpatrick: 48
Carson Wentz: 40
Matthew Stafford: 38
Josh Allen: 37
Aaron Rodgers: 35
Ryan Tannehill: 34
Joe Burrow: 34
Tom Brady: 33
Kirk Cousins: 33
Russell Wilson: 28
Dak Prescott: 25
Ben Roethlisberger: 25
Patrick Mahomes: 24

https://wonderlictestpractice.com/quarterback-wonderlic-scores/

That's the same list I looked at.  For my money the correlation between quality QB play and Woonderlic score is pretty weak.