Is "Tough, Smart, Dependable" an actual real thing?

[DaveBrown74]

I'm good.  Not tightly strung at all, friend.  Glad you checked in on me.  Sorry I didn't realize you had had a conversation with a lot of other people about this, so I thought it was weird that you responded the way you did (I guess it would have been clearer if you had mentioned it).  That's all.  All good.

I do find it interesting that you found my reply to be a highly defensive freak-out.  I promise you it didn't feel that way when I typed it out and I'm having trouble seeing that. 

Anyway, yeah, I agree with some of your large pool of colleagues, I guess- I think it's probably a foundational piece of how the team is approaching it's players now.

Ok man. All good.

[MightyGiants]

To address the question, these traits are not a slogan.   Those three traits are a means to help focus on what one is looking for in players you acquire.   Look, I have been a manager almost all my adult life. I have interviewed and hired many people.  I would ask the usual questions and review resumes.  I would look to make sure they were qualified, but I rarely took the time to define what I was truly looking for.  Instead, I would go through the process until I had someone I liked. 

I recently had to hire another person.  I decided to adopt Joe Schoen's approach.  I kept smart and dependable, but I subbed conscientiousness for toughness.  I have to say it made the interviewing process easier and, I believe, better. It helped me focus on what I was looking for rather than just looking for someone I liked.

Like @AZGiantFan those are not absolutes, but it is what you focus on when you are seeking out players.

[True Blue]

Yeah, despite what some people may claim, injury is a big part of it (tough and dependable) Availability is the best ability. If you aren't on the field due to injury you are hurting the team and messing up the depth chart. Other points are certainly valid but to me staying in shape and not having an injury history is a critical and the biggest part of it.

[Gmo11]

I think those are the traits they look for in a player and certainly value heavily but if you are so set in your ways as to turn away deals such as this waller one you're not doing anybody any good.

Being flexible is an important trait for a GM. Look no further than the guy Schoen replaced for evidence of that. 

Maybe they'd have been willing to give up a 2nd round pick if not for the injuries but given that they reduced the price to the comp 3rd and at that point it's too good to pass up.

Worst case scenario he gets hurt and they can cut him after the year having only given up Toney who is the very definition of a walking injury anyway. Best case scenario he's healthy and goes back to being one of 3 best TEs in all of football. That to me is worth the risk.

[DaveBrown74]

I think those are the traits they look for in a player and certainly value heavily but if you are so set in your ways as to turn away deals such as this waller one you're not doing anybody any good.

Being flexible is an important trait for a GM. Look no further than the guy Schoen replaced for evidence of that. 

Maybe they'd have been willing to give up a 2nd round pick if not for the injuries but given that they reduced the price to the comp 3rd and at that point it's too good to pass up.

Worst case scenario he gets hurt and they can cut him after the year having only given up Toney who is the very definition of a walking injury anyway. Best case scenario he's healthy and goes back to being one of 3 best TEs in all of football. That to me is worth the risk.

I completely agree. As stated in the OP and in another thread, I am very happy about the trade. This thread was not knocking the trade in any way. But I'm someone who appreciates selective calculated risk at a discounted price point, which is exactly how I view this transaction.

The part I was less clear on is how a player like Waller clears the "tough, smart, dependable" guidelines. I'm very happy that he did, because I think he's very talented and has an incredibly high ceiling, but I am not the one who says "tough/smart/dependable" all the time.

I think we've now established that the mantra is more of a general thing that you ideally look for and hope you can say about most of your players but it's not any sort of rule. You can still go after injury-prone guys if you think the price justifies the risk.

[H-Town G-Fan]

It's an archetype. Does that mean you can't deviate from it? No. But the core of the team would theoretically be built off "tough, smart, dependable" players so they can also gamble a bit on the odd "eccentric, strange, intermittent" player whose talent may eclipse the headaches that could come with them. To be frank, if Schoen were so stoic and committed without question to "smart, tough, dependable," I would think him too inflexible.

In short, I think "smart, tough, dependable" is what's he's aiming the majority composition of the roster to be.  But will every player hit those marks? Of course not. Is that okay? It can be. I think it's dependent on the player we're talking about. But I haven't seen an egregious deviation from his stated purpose that makes me question his team building or his commitment to his own vision.

[AZGiantFan]

I completely agree. As stated in the OP and in another thread, I am very happy about the trade. This thread was not knocking the trade in any way. But I'm someone who appreciates selective calculated risk at a discounted price point, which is exactly how I view this transaction.

The part I was less clear on is how a player like Waller clears the "tough, smart, dependable" guidelines. I'm very happy that he did, because I think he's very talented and has an incredibly high ceiling, but I am not the one who says "tough/smart/dependable" all the time.

I think we've now established that the mantra is more of a general thing that you ideally look for and hope you can say about most of your players but it's not any sort of rule. You can still go after injury-prone guys if you think the price justifies the risk.

I think dependable is not just being injury free but what you do when you ARE injured.  I'd bet that Schoen and his guys did their due diligence and that Waller works his butt off to get healthy - does what he's told and sticks around for treatment.  Unlike the guy who got us the draft pick we used to acquire him.

It kind of helps me to think of dependable as being a professional.  You can't help a lot of the things that happen to you, the nature of the game being what it is, all you can control is how you deal with it when it happens.

[T200]

Good topic and discussion 

I agree with those who view "tough, smart, and dependable" as guidelines as well. To take it a little further, maybe Schoen and Daboll give grades for each of those categories. For example:

Shep:
Tough - A
Smart - A
Dependable - B-/C+

Barkley:
Tough - A
Smart - B+
Dependable - B+

Waller:
Tough - A
Smart - A
Dependable - B

Furthermore, 'dependable' could also be broken down to what the player is doing to ensure he gets back on the field, as AZ mentioned.

[MightyGiants]

To the topic of dependable, I think it goes beyond just injury

can you depend on the player to show up on time and put in full effort at practice, in the classroom and on game day

can you depend on the player to be available to play on game day

if he gets hurt can you depend on the player to do all he can to rehab and get back on the field

can you depend on the player to take care of his body to minimize injury

can you depend o the player to stay out of trouble off the field

can you depend on the player being a good example to the rest of the team and/or a team leader

[PSUBeirut]

Good topic and discussion 

I agree with those who view "tough, smart, and dependable" as guidelines as well. To take it a little further, maybe Schoen and Daboll give grades for each of those categories. For example:

Shep:
Tough - A
Smart - A
Dependable - B-/C+

Barkley:
Tough - A
Smart - B+
Dependable - B+

Waller:
Tough - A
Smart - A
Dependable - B

Furthermore, 'dependable' could also be broken down to what the player is doing to ensure he gets back on the field, as AZ mentioned.

Agreed.  I also think there could easily be factors such as the shape they come back in after the offseason, how much they immerse themselves in the playbook, etc. 

[kartanoman]

Of course.

Good topic and discussion 

I agree with those who view "tough, smart, and dependable" as guidelines as well. To take it a little further, maybe Schoen and Daboll give grades for each of those categories. For example:

Shep:
Tough - A
Smart - A
Dependable - B-/C+

Barkley:
Tough - A
Smart - B+
Dependable - B+

Waller:
Tough - A
Smart - A
Dependable - B

Furthermore, 'dependable' could also be broken down to what the player is doing to ensure he gets back on the field, as AZ mentioned.

This is the best reply of the thread. I mean, if Coach Daboll could read this thread right now, he would applaud us for our heads being in the right place. But I think he'd also want us to measure not only the holistic player, but is their body, mind and heart/ spirit in the game. Like Parcells used yell at his players and coaches on the sidelines, "Get in the game!"

I just had a crazy thought come to mind, regarding Coach Coughlin. How would the players have graded Tom in 2006, post Wild Card loss, versus 2007, post Super Bowl victory. I would envision something like this:

Firm
2006: A
2007: A+

Fair
2006: F
2006: A+

Honest
2006: C
2007: A+

Demanding
2006: A+
2007: A

Caring
2006: D
2007: A+

The difference a Super Bowl win makes. Thus shall it ever be for any coach leading his team to the promised land, regardless of the campaign slogan.

Peace!

[kartanoman]

To address the question, these traits are not a slogan.   Those three traits are a means to help focus on what one is looking for in players you acquire.

Good morning, Rich @MightyGiants ... they can be both a slogan and a motto they hold their players to. Granted, you have to be careful as the more discriminants you throw in the candidates' requirements, the smaller the talent pool will be and their demand will be higher.

Every FA coming possesses risk. Whether it be injury or some other limitation. As a GM, when you bring in that talent, you accept that risk and already have a plan in place to address it. It will interesting to hear from the Giants how they plan to utilize the new TE and, also, what his thoughts are in coming to NY.

In all, it's a good signing and worth a shot.

Peace!

[Painter]

I look at Waller's injury history.  None of the injuries were serious.  They were the nagging type.  If we had a quality medical and S and C staff there would be no worries.

When do you think the Giants, especially now with an otherwise more fan-favored FO and Coaching Staff, will  finally recognize the need to replace its current medical and S and C staff with those of greater "quality" and competence so as to ensure that "there would be no worries.

Of course, the issue is hardly clear-cut in the face of the NFLPA's just released workplace "report card" based on a survey of 1,300 players from across the league in which the Giants Training Staff received an A+ grade which ranked T-1st among the 32 teams.

I assume that you were unaware of that when instead you chose to only mention medical and S & C staff for criticism albeit Strength Coaching was their lowest rated. Otherwise, the more cynical of us, aware of your abiding contempt for Ronnie Barnes, might find a hint of Tucker Carlson in it.

Of course, we are all aware of the widespread criticism by players and coaches of the current playing surface in Met Life Stadium as it may relate to a higher frequency of non-contact injury. So much so that a new surface will be installed before the start of this season. While the players would prefer it to be a "natural" rather than a synthetic grass surface that is not be due to the exigencies of year-round event usage.

It is worth noting, however, that the numbers for the NFL's recent rate of non-contact injuries to the knee, ankle and foot is roughly the same on natural and artificial playing surfaces. I assume you have an unbiased opinion on that as well, or at least one which would support your "no worries".

Cheers!

[y_so_blu]

I don't really care what it means as long as we've got a good team again.

[Philosophers]

Here's what I said about it in another post.

If you listen to either Joe Schoen or Brian Daboll, you never hear them use the word "I" unless it is about accepting responsibility for something that went wrong.  They are communicative yet extremely humble when they talk either to the press or to other staff members in meetings.  It is so clear to me that they really cherish the input of others in their decisions.  They want to know what others think.  They are not about praising themselves, but praising others.

What does Smart, Tough, Dependable mean from the eyes of JS/BD?  It's the way they go about their business which is take it seriously, listen to others, fight through challenges and put the team ahead of yourself.  The kind of guys JS and BD want drive pickup trucks or beater cars, not flashy red exotic sports cars.