The Giants are in win now mode

[kingm56]

DB,

I think it's fair to say that the Giants (Schoen and Daboll and the rest) don't see "apologists." They see astute football people who correctly understood that a lack of support can limit a quarterback.  I think it's time to retire the proven wrong narrative of "apologists".

These same people constructed a contract with a plausible escape clause in just two years, which is antithetical to how most franchise contracts are constructed.  @DaveBrown74 is 100% correct; if the Giants fail this season, they could draft DJs successor next season.  IMO, his observation is astute and extremely plausible.  The assets are there, let's hope the numbers/play will follow. With an unrealistic chance of finding a better QB this season, resigning DJ was the correct move; yet, the Giants simply cannot produce another bottom 1/3 passing performance and expect to be competitive for a SB, not in the modern era. 

[MightyGiants]

These same people constructed a contract with a plausible escape clause in just two years, which is antithetical to how most franchise contracts are constructed.  @DaveBrown74 is 100% correct; if the Giants fail this season, they could draft DJs successor next season.  IMO, his observation is astute and extremely plausible.  The assets are there, let's hope the numbers/play will follow. With an unrealistic chance of finding a better QB this season, resigning DJ was the correct move; yet, the Giants simply cannot produce another bottom 1/3 passing performance and expect to be competitive for a SB, not in the modern era. 

Matt,

You guys can continue to believe that Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll don't know quarterbacks when they sign Jones to a big deal, and Schoen publicly states they wouldn't sign Jones to that deal if they didn't believe they could win a Super Bowl with Jones they wouldn't have given him that contract.

That is your right, and frankly, I don't even have the desire to try and convince you otherwise.  My issue is with the derisive term "apologist" for people who appear to be correct in their assessment of Jones and their understanding that a QB's performance can be strongly impacted by the support the QB is given.

Those put-downs (like being called an apologist) were annoying enough when the evidence was lacking, but it's become intolerable now that the evidence is strongly in Jones' favor. 

It's as if Baker Mayfield was still mocking the Giants and Daniel Jones.

[EDjohnst1981]

Matt,

You guys can continue to believe that Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll don't know quarterbacks when they sign Jones to a big deal, and Schoen publicly states they wouldn't sign Jones to that deal if they didn't believe they could win a Super Bowl with Jones they wouldn't have given him that contract.

That is your right, and frankly, I don't even have the desire to try and convince you otherwise.   My issue is with the derisive term "apologist" for people who appear to be correct in their assessment of Jones and their understanding that a QB's performance can be strongly impacted by the support the QB is given.

Those put-downs (like being called an apologist) were annoying enough when the evidence was lacking, but it's become intolerable now that the evidence is strongly in Jones' favor. 

The other side of the coin is equally true. The structure of the contract looks like a two-year deal as there is a palatable, if slightly uncomfortable Dead Cap hit, after year 2.

I view this as effectively two Franchise Tags for Jones, albeit with a lower cap hit in Year 1 which benefits the Giants in providing the much needed weapons AND tagging Barkley.

If others want to think this is a 4-year deal, then that's fine, somebody is going to be correct and we will find out in a couple of years, when the astute Daboll/JS will have a full picture of facts on what Jones is. If they don't release him at the end of year 2 or 3, he'll be renegotiated as he wont be playing on the 56.5million hit in Year 4.

For comparable 'Elite Level' QBs on a second contract, let's look at their Dead Cap Hits:

Josh Allen: Signed a new deal in 2021, his dead cap hits are

2021: $103mil
2022: 93 Mil
2023: 71mil
2024: 59mil
2025: 36mil
2026: 19mil (which Spotrac say is the potential out https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/josh-allen-25102/).

Patrick Mahomes
2020: 64mil
2021: 99mil
2022: 130 Mil
2023: 94mil
2024: 48mil
2026: 4mil when he will be 30 years old (a clear out of this contract: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/patrick-mahomes-21751/)

When Jones is hitting his prime at 28, the Giants can leave the deal with 18mil hit. Allen's hit at the same age is 59mil and Mahomes hit is 94mil. That's locking your guy up through his prime.


The Joe Burrow, Lamar Jackson contracts will look more like those Allan/Mahomes' contracts than the one Jones has. This is because the teams are locking their guy up for a long time and don't need the low cap hits if it goes pearshaped. The Giants have not done that, there are decent exits.

If you and anyone else want to think the Giants are wedded to Jones for life and he's the Franchise Guy, that's your right. But the structure of the contract suggests otherwise, the Giants have afforded Jones a deal which is effectively 2 years in nature.

I don't understand why that is so difficult to see or understand. But perhaps it's because it's so important to be seen to be correct, rather than actually being correct.

[MightyGiants]

@EDjohnst1981


Jones's contract should be considered a 3-year contract.  If this contract ends after 2-years, it will be a poor outcome for NYG.  If NYG releases Jones after two seasons, they will have to swallow $18 million in dead cap (and pay him over $40 million per season for the two years), which is not an ideal outcome. 

As for understanding the convoluted thinking that somehow concludes the Giants' actions don't indicate that they believe Jones is their franchise QB, I doubt that will happen.

[kingm56]

@EDjohnst1981


Jones's contract should be considered a 3-year contract.  If this contract ends after 2-years, it will be a poor outcome for NYG.  If NYG releases Jones after two seasons, they will have to swallow $18 million in dead cap (and pay him over $40 million per season for the two years), which is not an ideal outcome. 

As for understanding the convoluted thinking that somehow concludes the Giants' actions don't indicate that they believe Jones is their franchise QB, I doubt that will happen.

Rich,

An $18M dollar cap hit, for a single year, is fairly insignificant, if his replacement is on a rookie contract.  Is it ideal...no; is it plausible...absoutletly.  DJs contract is a min of 2 years and max of 3 years; he will never see the forth year. As stated before, the Giants perfectly threaded the needle; regardless, DJ's deal is hardly a long-term commitment that parrels other franchise QB's deal.

@EDjohnst1981 - Fantastic job laying out the facts!

[Jclayton92]

Rich,

An $18M dollar cap hit, for a single year, is fairly insignificant, if his replacement is on a rookie contract.  Is it ideal...no; is it plausible...absoutletly.  DJs contract is a min of 2 years and max of 3 years; he will never see the forth year. As stated before, the Giants perfectly threaded the needle; regardless, DJ's deal is hardly a long-term commitment that parrels other franchise QB's deal.

@EDjohnst1981 - Fantastic job laying out the facts!

What do you think the Over/under is on him making it to the 3rd year?

[MightyGiants]

What do you think the Over/under is on him making it to the 3rd year?

The way the contract is structured it's clear Schoen and Daboll will take the over

[Jclayton92]

The way the contract is structured it's clear Schoen and Daboll will take the over

I hope you're right because then that would mean we are winning at a high clip but the factors in play make it almost impossible to tell until we get well into this upcoming season.

[MightyGiants]

I hope you're right because then that would mean we are winning at a high clip but the factors in play make it almost impossible to tell until we get well into this upcoming season.

Jess,

I would feel much better with our chances moving forward if the Giants announced major changes in their strength and conditioning coaching staff (poorly ranked by players compared to other teams) and their medical team.   DJ, Barkley, Waller, and Cambell are all key parts, and all have injury concerns. 

[Giant Jim]

Yes.
I've no desire to rain on anyone's parade, but I think Schoen is playing a longer game, painting a bigger picture,than win now.
The FA, and re-signs, have been savvy, VFM jobs rather than splashes.
This club's future will be built draft on draft.
I think we're still two drafts and off-seasons away from being properly January relevant, by that I mean "all the marbles" relevant.....and that's IF Jones works out.
I'm not saying any of that to be critical, I think we're way ahead of schedule.
But we need to temper expectations for 2023.
I'm hoping for double digit wins and a shot at the tournament.
But a step back this year wouldn't necessarily be a disaster.

We're still in a long game.

Best post on the thread topic. I think the players they brought in are to hold the fort and get some production, make the team a little better until they can replace them thru future drafts. I'm hoping they use this draft to solidify the interior line, not just center, but both guards and CB. I hope they can keep Love so they don't have to waste a pick on another safety. Unless something too good to be true is available, I think the following draft will be WR & TE.

[MightyGiants]

This is the move a win-now team takes.  Schoen is borrowing future cap dollars for this season


https://twitter.com/FieldYates/status/1636749118620983299

[EDjohnst1981]

Jess,

I would feel much better with our chances moving forward if the Giants announced major changes in their strength and conditioning coaching staff (poorly ranked by players compared to other teams) and their medical team.   DJ, Barkley, Waller, and Cambell are all key parts, and all have injury concerns. 

DB and JS have expressed no concerns over the strength and condition/medical team.

I know you raise this a lot but I don't think any non-convoluted thinking indicates that they believe they current staff is insufficient.  I doubt that any number of repeated posts on this will change the narrative.

There's a chance they are wedded to this staff for life. There's also a chance they will release them in the near future.

But right now, they are happy with them. But circumstances might dictate that their performance doesn't warrant an extension to their stay.

They strike me as a duo who think in the short-medium term with everything related to the giants.

[MightyGiants]

DB and JS have expressed no concerns over the strength and condition/medical team.

I know you raise this a lot but I don't think any non-convoluted thinking indicates that they believe they current staff is insufficient.  I doubt that any number of repeated posts on this will change the narrative.

There's a chance they are wedded to this staff for life. There's also a chance they will release them in the near future.

But right now, they are happy with them. But circumstances might dictate that their performance doesn't warrant an extension to their stay.

They strike me as a duo who think in the short-medium term with everything related to the giants.

Ed,

We have not heard Schoen or Daboll address the NFLPA player survey, where the Giants' strength and conditioning staff was ranked 29th overall.   Schoen has said that this off-season the Giants would work on trying to reduce injuries

There is also this Q and A with Schoen

Q: From your vantage point, what do you view as the reason for the injuries in the first half, early season? And have you already commissioned and kind of studied your evaluation of how to improve that?

Schoen: We're working through that, specifically the rookie class. Is it the young players coming in, the onboarding process? Are we doing that right? We're going to turn over every leaf to figure that out because healthy players give us the best chance to win. We had some ACLs this year. We had some MCLs, stingers. So, we'll do a deep dive in the offseason and do whatever we can to try to improve that, that way we can be the healthiest we can.

So unless Schoen is blowing smoke up our arses, I would think he will be looking at the staff responsible for keeping the players healthy and not just the turf at the stadium.

I hope that's not too convoluted for you 

[EDjohnst1981]

Ed,

We have not heard Schoen or Daboll address the NFLPA player survey, where the Giants' strength and conditioning staff was ranked 29th overall.   Schoen has said that this off-season the Giants would work on trying to reduce injuries

There is also this Q and A with Schoen


So unless Schoen is blowing smoke up our arses, I would think he will be looking at the staff responsible for keeping the players healthy and not just the turf at the stadium.

I hope that's not too convoluted for you 

Thank you.

There's little on here that's too convoluted for me.

[DaveBrown74]

Matt,

You guys can continue to believe that Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll don't know quarterbacks when they sign Jones to a big deal, and Schoen publicly states they wouldn't sign Jones to that deal if they didn't believe they could win a Super Bowl with Jones they wouldn't have given him that contract.

That is your right, and frankly, I don't even have the desire to try and convince you otherwise.  My issue is with the derisive term "apologist" for people who appear to be correct in their assessment of Jones and their understanding that a QB's performance can be strongly impacted by the support the QB is given.

Those put-downs (like being called an apologist) were annoying enough when the evidence was lacking, but it's become intolerable now that the evidence is strongly in Jones' favor. 

It's as if Baker Mayfield was still mocking the Giants and Daniel Jones.

If you don't like the term apologist, how about you and others stop repeatedly calling people who have consistently been on record that Jones is a solid, middle of the road QB "haters"?