NGT...PAC 12 down to 4

[President Rick]

PAC 12 is now the PAC 4.  Big ten is pushing two dozen  .

This is the trend, as we move to 4-5 mega-conferences.  As the BIG conferences grow, IMO they will absorb the smaller ones...ACC will poach 'big' east and MAC; more importantly PAC 12 will poach the Mountain West, etc. etc. .  At some point Notre Dame will be in the big 10. 

Thoughts????

[DaveBrown74]

PAC 12 is now the PAC 4.  Big ten is pushing two dozen  .

This is the trend, as we move to 4-5 mega-conferences.  As the BIG conferences grow, IMO they will absorb the smaller ones...ACC will poach 'big' east and MAC; more importantly PAC 12 will poach the Mountain West, etc. etc. .  At some point Notre Dame will be in the big 10. 

Thoughts????

Definitely the way it's going. Will look more like the NFL's setup once it's all said and done.

[Philosophers]

PAC 12 is now the PAC 4.  Big ten is pushing two dozen  .

This is the trend, as we move to 4-5 mega-conferences.  As the BIG conferences grow, IMO they will absorb the smaller ones...ACC will poach 'big' east and MAC; more importantly PAC 12 will poach the Mountain West, etc. etc. .  At some point Notre Dame will be in the big 10. 

Thoughts????

I disagree with your conclusions.

What the Big 10 has really figured out along with the SEC is that you want to gain control of good team/universities in big markets.  SEC did that with UT and Oklahoma for Texas market.  Big 10 grabbed Los Angeles with USC/UCLA.  More markets means getting your conference on Basic Cable and getting more viewers watching your games which equates to bigger TV contracts.  The Big East has bad football so it is not accretive to the ACC.

The ACC will not thrive but instead will be poached by the Big 10 which is already at the border of SEC country but wants to be firmly inside it.  Look for thr Big 10 to go after unc, maybe UVA and likely Miami and/or FSU.  That would give the Big 10 ebtry into SE tv markets plus Florida, two areas with huge population growth.

The Big 10 has periodically courted Notre Dame and been rebuffed because ND has its own TV deal so does not have to share with other schools in a conference.  ND fits like a glove academically, good sports and geography in the Big 10 but I believe ND wants to maintain its independence and the Big 10 is simply going to move on.  If ND joins, they wint get any kind of special treatment by the Big 10.

[President Rick]

all good points.  SEC at least can try to compete with Big 10 on schools like UVA, which is indeed a perfect fir for the big 10 and would revive the Maryland-Va rivalry.  My thought on Notre Dame is born from what happened to the PAC 12 when the tv contract expired.  Implosion.  Given where the college game is now, and the networks not wanting to pay SEC-Big 10 $$$ for the PAC 12, IMO when notre dame's sweetheart tv deal expires, the big $$$ just won't be there for them, making the big 10 a safe smart place to land.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I've been following this closely and I have a completely different take. Personally, I think the Big 10 is getting ahead of themselves in poaching Washington and Oregon.

First: the sheer cost in both money and administration to run a conference from the Atlantic to the Pacific will be enormous. The benefit: TV revenue (but shared across a broader spectrum of schools with their hands out). The drawback: the conference becomes an athletic behemoth, causing academic standards to suffer since priority one becomes "sports and money", screw learning

Second: It waters down the conference and puts the main schools (Ohio State, Penn St., Mich..., etc.,) in jeopardy of not getting picked in the national championship playoffs. They can't all go to the final

Third: the sheer travel time for athletes makes it ridiculous in my opinion. Think Maryland University playing in California, the next week at home, then off to Oregon, before a stopping at Wisconsin or Iowa

Fourth: The moniker "Big 10" sounds stupid. Call it the "Humongous 23 (24, 28, whatever)" or the "Atlantic to Pacific Conference" (APC), or "The Entire United States Conference ("EUSTC"), or something.

Fifth: fan bases tend to care about home teams and inter conference rivalries. No one in New Jersey cares about a game between Iowa and Washington, they only care about Rutgers and their rivalries in Maryland and Pennsylvania. In fact, few people in the East (more than half the US population lives on the east coast) gives a rat's ass about west coast teams

Sixth: Notre Dame has told the Big 10 to "stick it where the sun don't shine" only about a hundred times a year for the last three decades. They have a sweet deal with the ACC and they know it. They aren't going to give up their unique TV revenue to share with 20-some other teams. Wouldn't make financial sense.

(addendum: I bet Maryland wishes they never left the ACC. Now they will travel millions of miles to be the doormat in the Big 10)

I think it's a mistake. I guess time will tell

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As far as ACC teams being poached, that's also a bit of a laugh. To leave the ACC cost a team a half billion friggin dollars, the only conference that put in an outrageous "leaving fee" in their contracts. If Florida State leaves for the Big 10, it will cost them a half billion dollars and will take many years to recoup what they lost. And they aren't even that good of a team in football. It won't make them better playing USC and Washington. Clemson is in the same deal. Right now, Clemson is KING in ACC Football - in the Big 10 or Big 12, they travel a lot more in order to be an "also ran" team for the finals...plus be a half billion in the hole to start

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Big 12 will add two teams in the coming months/years to get at 16 schools and if they were smart, they'd rename the conferenct "Sweet 16"

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The ACC wil add another team or two, always saving a spot for Notre Dame if they ever decide to go all in and drop their football independent status. ACC is eyeballing West Virginia, Cincinnati, and possibly UConn. They wouldn't mind dipping their toes into Louisiana and maybe a school in Tennessee like Memphis. When they choose to expand, they will tread slowly and put much thought into the school. I think West Virgina is almost a given as they have begged the ACC to join for years and Cincinnati has been toyed with by the ACC for awhile. Who knows where it will fall 

Looking at maps, it shows how ridiculous the Big 10 is being. The Big 12 needs to focus on the heartland of the country, and the ACC needs to retain high academic integrity while keeping schools in relative proximity, so student athletes aren't 2,000 miles away from campus for half their college career

You can tell so much from maps







And why West Virginia (and Cininnati and Central Florida would be happy to join the ACC

[Dgoodmantrublu]

They should do separate conferences for football and other sports. This crap is going to be devastating for all other sports. It will put a strain on athletes that are actually there to go to school and play more than one game a week.

[Philosophers]

I've been following this closely and I have a completely different take. Personally, I think the Big 10 is getting ahead of themselves in poaching Washington and Oregon.

First: the sheer cost in both money and administration to run a conference from the Atlantic to the Pacific will be enormous. The benefit: TV revenue (but shared across a broader spectrum of schools with their hands out). The drawback: the conference becomes an athletic behemoth, causing academic standards to suffer since priority one becomes "sports and money", screw learning

Second: It waters down the conference and puts the main schools (Ohio State, Penn St., Mich..., etc.,) in jeopardy of not getting picked in the national championship playoffs. They can't all go to the final

Third: the sheer travel time for athletes makes it ridiculous in my opinion. Think Maryland University playing in California, the next week at home, then off to Oregon, before a stopping at Wisconsin or Iowa

Fourth: The moniker "Big 10" sounds stupid. Call it the "Humongous 23 (24, 28, whatever)" or the "Atlantic to Pacific Conference" (APC), or "The Entire United States Conference ("EUSTC"), or something.

Fifth: fan bases tend to care about home teams and inter conference rivalries. No one in New Jersey cares about a game between Iowa and Washington, they only care about Rutgers and their rivalries in Maryland and Pennsylvania. In fact, few people in the East (more than half the US population lives on the east coast) gives a rat's ass about west coast teams

Sixth: Notre Dame has told the Big 10 to "stick it where the sun don't shine" only about a hundred times a year for the last three decades. They have a sweet deal with the ACC and they know it. They aren't going to give up their unique TV revenue to share with 20-some other teams. Wouldn't make financial sense.

(addendum: I bet Maryland wishes they never left the ACC. Now they will travel millions of miles to be the doormat in the Big 10)

I think it's a mistake. I guess time will tell

-------------------------------------------------------

As far as ACC teams being poached, that's also a bit of a laugh. To leave the ACC cost a team a half billion friggin dollars, the only conference that put in an outrageous "leaving fee" in their contracts. If Florida State leaves for the Big 10, it will cost them a half billion dollars and will take many years to recoup what they lost. And they aren't even that good of a team in football. It won't make them better playing USC and Washington. Clemson is in the same deal. Right now, Clemson is KING in ACC Football - in the Big 10 or Big 12, they travel a lot more in order to be an "also ran" team for the finals...plus be a half billion in the hole to start

-------------------------------------------------------

Big 12 will add two teams in the coming months/years to get at 16 schools and if they were smart, they'd rename the conferenct "Sweet 16"

-------------------------------------------------------

The ACC wil add another team or two, always saving a spot for Notre Dame if they ever decide to go all in and drop their football independent status. ACC is eyeballing West Virginia, Cincinnati, and possibly UConn. They wouldn't mind dipping their toes into Louisiana and maybe a school in Tennessee like Memphis. When they choose to expand, they will tread slowly and put much thought into the school. I think West Virgina is almost a given as they have begged the ACC to join for years and Cincinnati has been toyed with by the ACC for awhile. Who knows where it will fall 

Looking at maps, it shows how ridiculous the Big 10 is being. The Big 12 needs to focus on the heartland of the country, and the ACC needs to retain high academic integrity while keeping schools in relative proximity, so student athletes aren't 2,000 miles away from campus for half their college career

You can tell so much from maps







And why West Virginia (and Cininnati and Central Florida would be happy to join the ACC

It's silly to think a conference cant manage itself across the U.S. when companies manage themselves across continents.  The Big 10 will have plenty of money to do so.

Nobody also said the Big 10 will poach an ACC school today or tomorrow as right now the costs to exit the ACC are prohibitive however Florida St hired a Wall Street law firm to review how to break the Gain on Right agreement the ACC has.  With FSU doing that, I guarantee you UNC and others are doing that.

Where the Big 10 and SEC differs is that the SEC cares zero about academics of a prospective SEC target ajd Big 10 does care to some degree about it.  My guess is the SEC covets FSU and Clemson and maybe Miami as three best football schools traditionally in ACC.  As a founding SEC member, UF cut a deal that prohibits Florida St from joining SEC.  Of course UF can always change its mind.

Oregon and Washington were offered only a partial share membership to be a member of the Big 10 through the next contract so it does not cost the Big 10 much plus they lock up the Pacific Northwest.

Gerry DiNardo said something I had not considered.  He wonders if the Big 10 may go to a 10 game conference scheduke from 9 because with the expanded 12 team from 4 team CFP, teams with 2 wins will get in especially if those losses are to schools like Oregon and Washington.

Right now there is no way the ACC wins because at best they will be the 3rd most lucrative conference with a huge gap between 3rd and 2nd.  Many think it may be 4th depending on what Big 12 does.  However, unless the ACC can find a way to poach a top program from the SEC or Big 10 like Alabama, Ohio State, etc. which is next to impossible, no way I think of ACC having a way to improve itself.

With this new paradigm I dont care about Notre Dame being in the Big 10 because with additions of USC, Oregon, Washington, etc in addition to Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, et. there are plenty of great conference games to play.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I would agree with you if college's only purpose was to be like a capitalist industry where maximizing dollars and enriching administrators is the ONLY thing that matters. There is no possible way for a college to make "learning" a priority when only money matters...and that's basically where they're going. Good (hell, GREAT) for the people running the colleges as they become multi-millionaires living in safe suburbs of the rich, whilst the kids wanting an education are getting a mixture of high school remediation courses with community college type teaching....and it only costs the kids about 120k for that education. Why build research laboratories and exploratory test centers when you can go to college and watch football in a billion dollar stadium, while getting drunk and high and hoping to get laid later?

[AZGiantFan]

I saw an interesting YouTube video about things America does that no other countries do.  Big time college sports headed the list.

[Philosophers]

I would agree with you if college's only purpose was to be like a capitalist industry where maximizing dollars and enriching administrators is the ONLY thing that matters. There is no possible way for a college to make "learning" a priority when only money matters...and that's basically where they're going. Good (hell, GREAT) for the people running the colleges as they become multi-millionaires living in safe suburbs of the rich, whilst the kids wanting an education are getting a mixture of high school remediation courses with community college type teaching....and it only costs the kids about 120k for that education. Why build research laboratories and exploratory test centers when you can go to college and watch football in a billion dollar stadium, while getting drunk and high and hoping to get laid later?

Schools can have both a source of academic prestige and be a moneymaker from sports.  Look no further than Vanderbilt University.  It's a top 20 university yet has a generally bad football team but plays in the powerful, athletic dollar rich SEC where academic standards matter little yet Vanderbilt's reputation is not harmed and it rides the coattails of Alabama and others to reap huge revenues from sports.

[kartanoman]

Schools can have both a source of academic prestige and be a moneymaker from sports.  Look no further than Vanderbilt University.  It's a top 20 university yet has a generally bad football team but plays in the powerful, athletic dollar rich SEC where academic standards matter little yet Vanderbilt's reputation is not harmed and it rides the coattails of Alabama and others to reap huge revenues from sports.

Not only that, but have their kicker drafted by a Super Bowl team when he wasn't even on anyone's draft radar!

2001 NFL Draft: "NY Giants select in the fifth round, kicker John Markham, Vanderbilt."

You could say Markham put Vandy on the Giant map that year. But I was living in SEC country at the time so I knew who he was and that he was better than the the other guy in camp at the time. But I digress.

Vanderbilt remains the educational crown jewel in Nashville and, as you stated very well, maintains its academic prowess along with its mildly successful sports programs, while competing with their powerhouse SEC neighbors to reap the rewards of that conference. In doing so, they remain one of the most respected Division I universities in the southeast.

Peace!

[Dgoodmantrublu]

Vandy has always had a really good college baseball program.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

It's getting ridiculous, news today is that the ACC is considering and evaluating inviting Stanford and Cal to become members (nothing says "Atlantic Coast Conference" like schools on the Pacific coast  ). So much for the advantage of proximity for the benefit of student-athletes having time for actual classes. https://nypost.com/2023/08/07/acc-considering-stanford-cal-as-pac-12-collapse-continues/

In other breaking news, Big 10 is pondering adding Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile - Santiago, and Imperial College London. SEC responds with, "well okay, we're adding University of Edinburgh, and  University of São Paulo". Not to be outdone, Big 12 says they might add the University of Tokyo, and the University of Melbourne  

[Dgoodmantrublu]

It can be ok for football, but not for other sports. They need to have regional conferences for other sports.