Time for a serious, no-spin conversation about Daniel Jones

[Rambo89]

Yes, definite typo. Like I said, if we draft a Qb in top 10 - I would insist the kid start right away.

Why?  If the kid they draft they feel needs to sit to start the season with Jones still on the roster why would you force the kid to play when you can have Jones play instead?

[JT39]

Why?  If the kid they draft they feel needs to sit to start the season with Jones still on the roster why would you force the kid to play when you can have Jones play instead?

Because Jones is gone after next year regardless. You dont sit top 10 picks unless you have a contending team (we dont). Richardson isnt a better QB than Minshew - but hes learning on the job immediately. Bryce Young isnt better than Andy Dalton - but they threw him into the fire.

[Rambo89]

Cause the topic brought up that our skilled players were good enough to compete at a high level and I tried to show that the league doesnt view our skilled players at a high level. I am not sure why the pivot always has to be on Jones. But the players we have brought in were not players who other teams saw as impact players. Yet we have people putting them up with that of some of the best players in the league.

All I was doing was showing you how your reasoning is flawed.  If you don't think it's flawed apply that reasoning to Daniel Jones.  Where a guy was drafted or what the Giants had to give up to get that player is irrelevant.  Those players have ability if you get them the ball.  If you don't get them the ball you're wasting them.  This isn't like last season where Richie James and Marcus Johnson are dropping passes.  These are players who do have ability.

Because Jones is gone after next year regardless. You dont sit top 10 picks unless you have a contending team (we dont). Richardson isnt a better QB than Minshew - but hes learning on the job immediately. Bryce Young isnt better than Andy Dalton - but they threw him into the fire.

Patrick Mahomes sat for a full season.  Eli Manning sat for the first half of his rookie season and he was not only the first overall pick but a pick the Giants paid a ransom for. Heck even Jones sat for the first two games of his rookie season. If that player is sat it has little to do with who is better but rather that the rookie QB isn't ready to step in immediately.

[Gmo11]

All I was doing was showing you how your reasoning is flawed.  If you don't think it's flawed apply that reasoning to Daniel Jones.  Where a guy was drafted or what the Giants had to give up to get that player is irrelevant.  Those players have ability if you get them the ball.  If you don't get them the ball you're wasting them.  This isn't like last season where Richie James and Marcus Johnson are dropping passes.  These are players who do have ability.

Patrick Mahomes sat for a full season.  Eli Manning sat for the first half of his rookie season and he was not only the first overall pick but a pick the Giants paid a ransom for. Heck even Jones sat for the first two games of his rookie season. If that player is sat it has little to do with who is better but rather that the rookie QB isn't ready to step in immediately.

Kinda makes me wonder if Jones had been better off sitting the entire 1st year and trying to work on the mental part of the game.  May not have made any difference but we know throwing him directly into the fire on a truly terrible and poorly constructed team didn't help.

[JT39]

All I was doing was showing you how your reasoning is flawed.  If you don't think it's flawed apply that reasoning to Daniel Jones.  Where a guy was drafted or what the Giants had to give up to get that player is irrelevant.  Those players have ability if you get them the ball.  If you don't get them the ball you're wasting them.  This isn't like last season where Richie James and Marcus Johnson are dropping passes.  These are players who do have ability.

Patrick Mahomes sat for a full season.  Eli Manning sat for the first half of his rookie season and he was not only the first overall pick but a pick the Giants paid a ransom for. Heck even Jones sat for the first two games of his rookie season. If that player is sat it has little to do with who is better but rather that the rookie QB isn't ready to step in immediately.

Mahomes sat because KC was a playoff team and were coming off a 12-4 season. Thank you for proving my point. We are not a contending team. Eli Manning played 20 years ago. The game has changed dramatically since.

And no we dont have good WRs. You can keep stressing that we do. We dont.

[Rambo89]

Kinda makes me wonder if Jones had been better off sitting the entire 1st year and trying to work on the mental part of the game.  May not have made any difference but we know throwing him directly into the fire on a truly terrible and poorly constructed team didn't help.

Don't think it would have made a difference but the Giants botched that (one of many by Gettleman/Mara).  They should have just moved on from Eli when they drafted Jones bringing in another veteran to babysit Jones for a year.

Mahomes sat because KC was a playoff team and were coming off a 12-4 season. Thank you for proving my point. We are not a contending team. Eli Manning played 20 years ago. The game has changed dramatically since.

And no we dont have good WRs. You can keep stressing that we do. We dont.

That wasn't the only reason Mahomes sat for a year.  Mahomes mainly sat for a year to learn Andy Reid's offense.  He came from a system in college that was nothing like what Reid runs.

And again it's hard to know whether these weapons are good when the QB can't get them the ball.

[JT39]

Don't think it would have made a difference but the Giants botched that (one of many by Gettleman/Mara).  They should have just moved on from Eli when they drafted Jones bringing in another veteran to babysit Jones for a year.

That wasn't the only reason Mahomes sat for a year.  Mahomes mainly sat for a year to learn Andy Reid's offense.  He came from a system in college that was nothing like what Reid runs.

And again it's hard to know whether these weapons are good when the QB can't get them the ball.

Or if they cant get open consistently... or if the OL doesnt block long enough either.

See NFL teams are smart. They see all the film. If these guy were that good and getting openy that consistently..
1) they would have been re-signed or drafted earlier
2) They would be paid a lot more money

The reason why these contracts were cheap with little incentives. The reason why Waller was traded for a late 3rd. The reason why Hyatt went in the third round?

Cause NFL personnel do not see them as difference makers. It has nothing to do with Jones. It has nothing to do with the OL. They are pretty replaceable.

[Gmo11]

Or if they cant get open consistently... or if the OL doesnt block long enough either.

See NFL teams are smart. They see all the film. If these guy were that good and getting openy that consistently..
1) they would have been re-signed or drafted earlier
2) They would be paid a lot more money

The reason why these contracts were cheap with little incentives. The reason why Waller was traded for a late 3rd. The reason why Hyatt went in the third round?

Cause NFL personnel do not see them as difference makers. It has nothing to do with Jones. It has nothing to do with the OL. They are pretty replaceable.

To be fair if JMS had been picked before the Giants they'd have taken Hyatt in the 2nd round.  That guy has a TON of talent but they stubbornly won't play him.  It's infuriating.  Both of the Mannings were yelling for him to see the field last Monday.  If those guys are confused by this what hope do the rest of us have?  And Waller was injury related because when healthy he's a top 4 TE in the entire NFL.

[kingm56]

Exactly. Football is a game of chess and Jones is out there playing checkers. He got away with it last year (to an extent) but it's caught up to him this year.

In my view Jones doesn't have the mental processing speed to play QB at a high level against a high level of competition. What I think is happening out there now is that Jones is compensating by thinking so far ahead on a given play that he has trouble seeing the basics when the offense lines up. He's struggling with QB 101 concepts.

Daboll and company have to figure out a way to get him back to the basics of being a semi-competent game manager.

No comment other than it's great to have you back, Doc.

[JT39]

To be fair if JMS had been picked before the Giants they'd have taken Hyatt in the 2nd round.  That guy has a TON of talent but they stubbornly won't play him.  It's infuriating.  Both of the Mannings were yelling for him to see the field last Monday.  If those guys are confused by this what hope do the rest of us have?  And Waller was injury related because when healthy he's a top 4 TE in the entire NFL.

I agree Hyatt needs to play more. I hope the NFL was wrong about him. There is no reason for a guy like Slayton to play 90% of our snaps and Hyatt play less than 50%. We know what Slayton is - he is a JAG. He will make a play here and there, but he isnt getting us victories.

Play Hyatt and Robinson the entire game. Slayton can spell Hyatt for a play here and there. Campbell can sell hot dogs in section 105 for all I care.

[Rambo89]

Or if they cant get open consistently... or if the OL doesnt block long enough either.

See NFL teams are smart. They see all the film. If these guy were that good and getting openy that consistently..
1) they would have been re-signed or drafted earlier
2) They would be paid a lot more money

The reason why these contracts were cheap with little incentives. The reason why Waller was traded for a late 3rd. The reason why Hyatt went in the third round?

Cause NFL personnel do not see them as difference makers. It has nothing to do with Jones. It has nothing to do with the OL. They are pretty replaceable.

Now apply this logic to Daniel Jones and if he was as good as you believe wouldn't teams have been all over him before he signed his extension with the Giants.  If that's the standard we are utilizing to evaluate whether a player is good or not.

As for the receivers not being open.  As we have seen in the video review they have been open but rather than go to them Jones has gone to his check down.  And being NFL open is not the same thing as being open in the ACC.

[umassgrad]

I have not been a DJ basher in the past but I've seen enough. After watching clips of CJ Stroud release it early and on target under pressure I can see how a young QB can be successful with a poor offensive line and average weapons. Jones doesn't have it but this season will be a dumpster fire and we will draft a QB with our top 5 pick.

[JT39]

Now apply this logic to Daniel Jones and if he was as good as you believe wouldn't teams have been all over him before he signed his extension with the Giants.  If that's the standard we are utilizing to evaluate whether a player is good or not.

As for the receivers not being open.  As we have seen in the video review they have been open but rather than go to them Jones has gone to his check down.  And being NFL open is not the same thing as being open in the ACC.

Can you focus on other positions? Theres enough talk about Jones. I am talking about our WRs.

There is more than enough film on all our skilled people we brought in this year, and the NFL generally agrees - they arent good. You can fault Jones all you want. But if guys are consistently getting open - even if Jones is missing them - teams would still see that they are open and seek them out. They didnt? Why? Cause they dont get open at the rate you believe they do. Cause if they did - they would have been offered larger and longer contracts or been offered for higher draft picks.

You really think teams around the league are saying "Man, Slayton and Campbell got open all the time the last few years. but nahhhhhh we dont want them."

Be real.

[Rambo89]

I agree Hyatt needs to play more. I hope the NFL was wrong about him. There is no reason for a guy like Slayton to play 90% of our snaps and Hyatt play less than 50%. We know what Slayton is - he is a JAG. He will make a play here and there, but he isnt getting us victories.

Play Hyatt and Robinson the entire game. Slayton can spell Hyatt for a play here and there. Campbell can sell hot dogs in section 105 for all I care.

Again Hyatt had received 60% of the snaps in Monday night's game.  Robinson 64% of the snaps.  So saying they played less than 50% of the snaps isn't true.  And again Campbell had the 5th most snaps of any receiver on the Giants offense Monday night.  Both Robinson and Hyatt got more snaps.  Only receiver who didn't get more snaps was Shepard.

So it's not a matter of them not getting 50% or more of the snaps.  It's a matter of them not getting the ball.

[umassgrad]

Did Darren Waller forget how to get open once he joined the Giants?