Hip-Drop-Tackle

[Jolly Blue Giant]

A lot of concern about injuries due to the "hip-block-tackle", which could become a penalized tactic in the NFL next year. It is the cause of many injuries and is called the "cousin of the horse-collar tackle"

It has come into focus as a serious problem after Roger Goodell mentioned the other day of the possibility of banning the tackle...most likely because of the tackle by Isaiah Simmons on Geno Smith as well as the injury to Tyreek Hill last game by the hip-drop-tackle that will force him out of upcoming games

Basically it is defined as: "defender grabs player by the hips, the turns the offensive player sideways, before 'flop-dropping' on the offensive player's legs with dead weight - particularly the lower part of the leg near the ankle"

It has already been banned in Rugby, which defines it as:





This next play shows Isaiah Simmons using the tackle method on Geno Smith and it made Smith outraged

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I wonder if Geno Smith is so upset about the h-d-tackle that has Simmons dead weight landing on both ankles or the fact that he was already out of bounds, so there should have been a flag. Maybe both 

[zephirus]

You can't legislate injuries out of the game without materially changing the game.  In the past 20 years we've seen:

- a massive increase in defensive holding and pass interference because poster-boy Peyton Manning (who I love anyway) couldn't win a championship and whined about the back-to-back playoff losses to the Patriots where they mauled his receivers.
- a ban on horse collar tackles because Roy Williams injured poster-boy Terrell Owens using the technique as the Eagles marched towards a Superbowl loss that the NFL lamented because those darn Patriots won again!
- a ban on hitting the quarterback below the knees because poster-boy Tom Brady got wiped out in Week 1 of 2008.
- a ban on lowering your helmet and initiating contact.
- While the NFL will characterize it as "defenseless", essentially any big hit on a receiver in the act of catching the ball is flagged, regardless of whether it meets the supposed criteria of "forcible contact to the head or neck area".
- new stipulations on personal fouls when sacking the quarterback including slinging him to the ground, landing with your body weight on the QB, and forcible contact to the head/neck area.

Look I don't want to be the guy who says "put skirts on them" but I do ask how we're supposed to maintain a spartan game or even remotely hope to play defense. 

[Jolly Blue Giant]

You can't legislate injuries out of the game without materially changing the game.  In the past 20 years we've seen:

- a massive increase in defensive holding and pass interference because poster-boy Peyton Manning (who I love anyway) couldn't win a championship and whined about the back-to-back playoff losses to the Patriots where they mauled his receivers.
- a ban on horse collar tackles because Roy Williams injured poster-boy Terrell Owens using the technique as the Eagles marched towards a Superbowl loss that the NFL lamented because those darn Patriots won again!
- a ban on hitting the quarterback below the knees because poster-boy Tom Brady got wiped out in Week 1 of 2008.
- a ban on lowering your helmet and initiating contact.
- While the NFL will characterize it as "defenseless", essentially any big hit on a receiver in the act of catching the ball is flagged, regardless of whether it meets the supposed criteria of "forcible contact to the head or neck area".
- new stipulations on personal fouls when sacking the quarterback including slinging him to the ground, landing with your body weight on the QB, and forcible contact to the head/neck area.

Look I don't want to be the guy who says "put skirts on them" but I do ask how we're supposed to maintain a spartan game or even remotely hope to play defense. 

I hear ya, and very well stated. We don't want the game to become flag football. However, I do agree with banning the horse collar and helmet to helmet takedown

In the second video I posted, the good doctor explains how and why it happens, and then defends the tackler in his video explaining that "there was no other way to bring him down" (bull xxxx!). I disagree. He could have just as easily wrapped up his legs and stopped him...probably faster. And if you look closely at the video, once the player with the ball is going down, the tackler purposely "throws" his own legs into the air so that when he comes down, his full weight comes across his ankles. Reminds me of the horrible incident in hockey where a player purposely fell on his back while throwing his legs in the air, coincidentally, putting his razor sharp skate across another player's juggler and killing him. Hockey players are taught from the first day they put on the skates right through the day they enter the NHL to "never let your skates get up in the air"...hence, the hockey player has been indicted on murder charges. I'm sure football players are aware what their body is doing and that when the player is going down, they know why they purposely throw their legs up so that the full weight of their body comes across the lower legs. Which has always been common for smaller/lighter players trying to tackle a much bigger guy, but not necessarily making it right. And even professional rugby players, which are about the toughest breed of man in the world, realize what is really going on during tackles and know the damage that can be done when using that tactic

Regardless, I don't have an answer to this dilemma. I hate it when it's the Giants' players that go down with injuries and snuffs out a season. On the other hand, I like real football with aggressive, smash-mouth, and players instilling their will on opposing teams   

[Philosophers]

A lot of concern about injuries due to the "hip-block-tackle", which could become a penalized tactic in the NFL next year. It is the cause of many injuries and is called the "cousin of the horse-collar tackle"

It has come into focus as a serious problem after Roger Goodell mentioned the other day of the possibility of banning the tackle...most likely because of the tackle by Isaiah Simmons on Geno Smith as well as the injury to Tyreek Hill last game by the hip-drop-tackle that will force him out of upcoming games

Basically it is defined as: "defender grabs player by the hips, the turns the offensive player sideways, before 'flop-dropping' on the offensive player's legs with dead weight - particularly the lower part of the leg near the ankle"

It has already been banned in Rugby, which defines it as:





This next play shows Isaiah Simmons using the tackle method on Geno Smith and it made Smith outraged

Thanks for posting this as I was never clear on the mechanics of it.

[Uni]

You can't legislate injuries out of the game without materially changing the game.  In the past 20 years we've seen:

- a massive increase in defensive holding and pass interference because poster-boy Peyton Manning (who I love anyway) couldn't win a championship and whined about the back-to-back playoff losses to the Patriots where they mauled his receivers.
- a ban on horse collar tackles because Roy Williams injured poster-boy Terrell Owens using the technique as the Eagles marched towards a Superbowl loss that the NFL lamented because those darn Patriots won again!
- a ban on hitting the quarterback below the knees because poster-boy Tom Brady got wiped out in Week 1 of 2008.
- a ban on lowering your helmet and initiating contact.
- While the NFL will characterize it as "defenseless", essentially any big hit on a receiver in the act of catching the ball is flagged, regardless of whether it meets the supposed criteria of "forcible contact to the head or neck area".
- new stipulations on personal fouls when sacking the quarterback including slinging him to the ground, landing with your body weight on the QB, and forcible contact to the head/neck area.

Look I don't want to be the guy who says "put skirts on them" but I do ask how we're supposed to maintain a spartan game or even remotely hope to play defense. 

This is a new tackling technique. The hip drop hasn't been injuring runners for decades because it started being used very recently. Frankly, it's complete BS to shrug your shoulders to this and say, "welp, that's football". It isn't -- it's a rugby move that is -- and let me be clear, no BS, it is absolutely being used by defenders to injure players.

You simply cannot use a new (and again, I stress NEW) tackling technique (as in, instructed, learned, and practiced) that will result in injury due to the mechanics of the tackle (ie, falling on the back of the legs with full weight and trapping the lower leg) and claim, "I didn't mean to hurt anyone". That's utter BS. Don't kid yourself, this is being done to injure players, full stop. It was inuring players in the NZ Rugby league (where it was developed), which is why they outlawed it. It's the reason why Florida State didn't make it to the playoffs -- they lost their starting QB to a hip drop tackle.

I don't understand the point of view of fans that if someone develops a new technique that frequently results in injuries that it should stay in the game or that it's some slippery slope to "flag football while wearing skirts", which is a repugnant sentiment to me. To advocate leaving avoidable injuries in the game is toxic. Is it  better game where everyone is at a high risk of injury and half the best offensive skill players are nursing leg injuries of varying degrees? To satisfy some knuckle dragging macho BS?

Sorry for the rant, but it raises my hackles when people try to justify or keep things like hip drop tackles in the game.

[jimc]

A collision sport will always have injuries.  At some point football will become a sophisticated video game. In that way no one will get injured. All the refs calls at some point will be reviewed.  Perhaps even the refs will become automated.

Baseball is close to eliminating ball and strike calls by the umpire. No one wants judgement calls. Everything has to be perfectly correct to satisfy some.

[Uni]

A collision sport will always have injuries.  At some point football will become a sophisticated video game. In that way no one will get injured. All the refs calls at some point will be reviewed.  Perhaps even the refs will become automated.

Baseball is close to eliminating ball and strike calls by the umpire. No one wants judgement calls. Everything has to be perfectly correct to satisfy some.

I had been talking about hip drop tackles since last season, a lone voice in the wind derided as a crank who doesn't understand football is a physical game, and injuries will happen. But I do know that. I know injuries are a part of almost any athletic contest.

But I cannot comprehend people who can't or won't distinguish between injuries arising from physical contact and injuries that arise from intentional application of leverage and technique. Hip drop tackles are no different than the days when D-linemen would tape silver dollars to their forearms and club the side of the helmet. Sure, there is some benefit to pass rushing when using such a technique, but you are knowingly causing injuries. Why wouldn't you want things like that legislated out of the game?

I dunno -- I guess there are some fans who yearn for the days when you could horse collar tackle and pull runners down by the facemask. I just don't get it.

[Philosophers]

I had been talking about hip drop tackles since last season, a lone voice in the wind derided as a crank who doesn't understand football is a physical game, and injuries will happen. But I do know that. I know injuries are a part of almost any athletic contest.

But I cannot comprehend people who can't or won't distinguish between injuries arising from physical contact and injuries that arise from intentional application of leverage and technique. Hip drop tackles are no different than the days when D-linemen would tape silver dollars to their forearms and club the side of the helmet. Sure, there is some benefit to pass rushing when using such a technique, but you are knowingly causing injuries. Why wouldn't you want things like that legislated out of the game?

I dunno -- I guess there are some fans who yearn for the days when you could horse collar tackle and pull runners down by the facemask. I just don't get it.

With the speed of the game, strength and momentum of opposing players that a player can execute the exact tackle he wants to do.  Maybe I am wrong.

[BluesCruz]

You can't legislate injuries out of the game without materially changing the game.  In the past 20 years we've seen:

- a massive increase in defensive holding and pass interference because poster-boy Peyton Manning (who I love anyway) couldn't win a championship and whined about the back-to-back playoff losses to the Patriots where they mauled his receivers.
- a ban on horse collar tackles because Roy Williams injured poster-boy Terrell Owens using the technique as the Eagles marched towards a Superbowl loss that the NFL lamented because those darn Patriots won again!
- a ban on hitting the quarterback below the knees because poster-boy Tom Brady got wiped out in Week 1 of 2008.
- a ban on lowering your helmet and initiating contact.
- While the NFL will characterize it as "defenseless", essentially any big hit on a receiver in the act of catching the ball is flagged, regardless of whether it meets the supposed criteria of "forcible contact to the head or neck area".
- new stipulations on personal fouls when sacking the quarterback including slinging him to the ground, landing with your body weight on the QB, and forcible contact to the head/neck area.

Look I don't want to be the guy who says "put skirts on them" but I do ask how we're supposed to maintain a spartan game or even remotely hope to play defense. 

I dont think any of these rules are preventing anything except the integrity of the game.

Its a rough game.  Well paid actors do get hurt
If you want low contact watch golf, darts, billiards lots of non contact sports for the faint of heart

Merry Christmas

Go Giants!!

[jimc]

I had been talking about hip drop tackles since last season, a lone voice in the wind derided as a crank who doesn't understand football is a physical game, and injuries will happen. But I do know that. I know injuries are a part of almost any athletic contest.

But I cannot comprehend people who can't or won't distinguish between injuries arising from physical contact and injuries that arise from intentional application of leverage and technique. Hip drop tackles are no different than the days when D-linemen would tape silver dollars to their forearms and club the side of the helmet. Sure, there is some benefit to pass rushing when using such a technique, but you are knowingly causing injuries. Why wouldn't you want things like that legislated out of the game?

I dunno -- I guess there are some fans who yearn for the days when you could horse collar tackle and pull runners down by the facemask. I just don't get it.

The point I was trying to make is that it is a collision sport.  If you really want to reduce injuries, remove the collision. Flag football comes to mind.

Trying to make intentional collision safe seems "oxymoronish", but I get it.

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I wonder if Geno Smith is so upset about the h-d-tackle that has Simmons dead weight landing on both ankles or the fact that he was already out of bounds, so there should have been a flag. Maybe both 

I have an answer to my own question...Smith was pissed because of the way he was tackled in which he called it a "dirty play"

If you watch carefully, Simmons perfectly executes the hip-drop-tackle on Smith by turning him and swinging himself in the air, getting his feet up so that he's flying dead weight and coming down on Smith's ankles

[Uni]

The point I was trying to make is that it is a collision sport.  If you really want to reduce injuries, remove the collision. Flag football comes to mind.

Trying to make intentional collision safe seems "oxymoronish", but I get it.

I am trying point out that there is a clear distinction between injuries arising from collisions, and injuries arising from the application of technique designed to cause injury.

It's the distinction between a concussion suffered when someone's helmet hits a knee and a concussion caused by a shot to the head.

It's the distinction between tackling someone below the waist and diving at a player's knees.

These aren't distinctions? They're all just (shrug) collisions? They're all that stop the NFL players from wearing dresses?

The NFL took years to outlaw the horse collar, and only because so many tacklers were using it. They have to nip the hip drop tackle in the bud, or its eventual widespread use will land every good skill player on IR.

[Uni]

With the speed of the game, strength and momentum of opposing players that a player can execute the exact tackle he wants to do.  Maybe I am wrong.

Clearly they can, although I see some semi failed attempts where they don't fully get their legs around but still manage to fall on the runner's legs.