Offensive Line Frustrations

[bldevil]

Interested in hearing the take from those of you who either played, coached, or are very knowledgeable on offensive line play.  I played G in High School.  We weren't very good and I wasn't very good either.

But I knew what to do when the defensive line stunted. 

What was going on out there?  I can't believe that--year after year--the Giants can't handle simple DT-DE twist plays. 

Justin Pugh looked completely lost out there.  This is incomprehensible for a seasoned vet.  Then throw in his 5-yarder for illegal motion.  Just unforgivable for a Guard.  Was Pugh making the line calls?  He was looking back at the QB on almost every play.  If so, why isn't the center making these calls this late in the season?

If you're Glowinski...dude you had 1 job.  You blew it and got flagged.  Go back to the bench.

I find it very hard to watch a game with multi-millionaire professionals making high school errors that our HS football coach would have gone apoplectic over.  Tough to watch.

[Stringer Bell]

Despite some trumpeting him as some type of savior, Pugh has been awful since he signed.

Thomas is the only above average OL. I have faith in JMS improving, so I think we're set at the 2 most important OL positions. But absolutely everything else should be house cleaned.

Here are the things I think need to happen in order of importance.

1. Fire Johnson and bring in a Callahan-type OL coach.
2. Stop wasting time on Neal at RT. He is not an NFL tackle and doesn't look like he ever will be. His footwork is terribly slow and his awareness is non-existent. I'm fine trying him at OG in camp and during preseason, but frankly I've already moved on from him.
3. Sign a solid vet starter in FA. Ideally a RT, but I know there isn't much to spend in FA, so I'm fine with an OG.
4. Draft a starting-level OL with either of their 2nd round picks.
5. EZ and McKethan can stay due to their youth and hope for improvement under a real coach, but everyone else needs to go and the reserves / depth guys need to be improved.

[Painter]

It's known as a lack of talent in 3 of 5 positions at best- and that is when Thomas is healthy- and by no means is it, nor has it been something new where the Giants are concerned. And yet, only now does it seem that more folks may be ready to join the few of us who have been pressing the issue seemingly in vain. And by all means let's be clear, if they don't add the talent needed to significantly improve the Oline's performance, it won't matter who's calling signals at the team's "most important position".

Cheers!

[coggs]

Despite some trumpeting him as some type of savior, Pugh has been awful since he signed.

Thomas is the only above average OL. I have faith in JMS improving, so I think we're set at the 2 most important OL positions. But absolutely everything else should be house cleaned.

Here are the things I think need to happen in order of importance.

1. Fire Johnson and bring in a Callahan-type OL coach.
2. Stop wasting time on Neal at RT. He is not an NFL tackle and doesn't look like he ever will be. His footwork is terribly slow and his awareness is non-existent. I'm fine trying him at OG in camp and during preseason, but frankly I've already moved on from him.
3. Sign a solid vet starter in FA. Ideally a RT, but I know there isn't much to spend in FA, so I'm fine with an OG.
4. Draft a starting-level OL with either of their 2nd round picks.
5. EZ and McKethan can stay due to their youth and hope for improvement under a real coach, but everyone else needs to go and the reserves / depth guys need to be improved.

Not sure why anyone thought he would be a savior.  Guy was not on a team for the same reason I am not on a team.  Nobody thought he was good enough (and they were all correct).

[TDToomer]

The color commentator pointed out that the Giants keep missing the DL stunt and getting beat. That's on the coaching. Who the hell is Bobby "not the guy who Simms threw too" Johnson and why is he still the OL coach? #1 off-season move has to be a new OL coach. That being said Pugh was a must needed sign when everyone was injured but he needs to be replaced by Glow or if he ever gets healthy Neal. 

[Stringer Bell]

Not sure why anyone thought he would be a savior.  Guy was not on a team for the same reason I am not on a team.  Nobody thought he was good enough (and they were all correct).

LOL. That is exactly what I said at the time of the signing. It was during a time when everyone was talking about how OL play was down across the league and no one had depth. So it was pretty telling that none of the other 31 teams felt he was worth bringing in. Didn't understand the belief in him then and don't understand it now.

[Dumpster Dan]

It's known as a lack of talent in 3 of 5 positions at best- and that is when Thomas is healthy- and by no means is it, nor has it been something new where the Giants are concerned. And yet, only now does it seem that more folks may be ready to join the few of us who have been pressing the issue seemingly in vain. And by all means let's be clear, if they don't add the talent needed to significantly improve the Oline's performance, it won't matter who's calling signals at the team's "most important position".

Cheers!

By my profile I have made 5065 posts to BBH--Conservatively perhaps 5000 of those have been about our inept OL--I think we are all preaching to the choir

How the hell can so many fans be so wrong about the team that they root for?

I cant go on any more about the state of our OL

The team we played today is NOT a defensive juggernaught--they were NOT the terror of the league in the sack or pressure dept  but we made them look like the 85 Bears or like some of the Giants premier Defensive teams

I dont even want to put my name to this post

[bldevil]

I'm just half-amazed and half-angry.  All of these linemen, even the worse lineman on the worse offensive line in the NFL, succeeded very well in high school.  He was taught how to handle defensive line stunts in high school, and he succeeded at high school.

Then he went to college.  He handled defensive line stunts in college, just as he was taught in high school, and he succeeded very well in college.  Otherwise he wouldn't even be invited to an NFL tryout.

Then he joins the Giants.  And now he can't handle simple defensive line stunts.

[londonblue]

The Giants OL talent is NOT the worst in the league. The Giants OL is. Any fix has to start with the coaching. Get a Callahan or Munchak as soon as the season ends and let them evaluate the tape and play a big role in final FA and draft evaluations. Even with what we have we should not be giving up an average(!) of more than 5 sacks per game and the most pressures per game to boot.

[DaveBrown74]

The Giants OL talent is NOT the worst in the league. The Giants OL is. Any fix has to start with the coaching. Get a Callahan or Munchak as soon as the season ends and let them evaluate the tape and play a big role in final FA and draft evaluations. Even with what we have we should not be giving up an average(!) of more than 5 sacks per game and the most pressures per game to boot.

Are those guys even available. I see Callahan is the Browns' O line coach. Munchak may have retired - not sure. Agree those are two great names. Scarnacchia (sp?) on the Pats is another highly respected one. Granted, I suspect the play of Brady over the years helped his cause, but no doubt he is respected, and with Belichick likely leaving maybe the new coach brings in others and Scarnacchia becomes available.

Either way the Giants definitely need an upgrade in this role. I am not one of these fans who think coaching changes are the magic cure-all elixir for improved on-field performance, but O line is one area where I do think it makes a definite difference.

[MightyGiants]

I got a sense that the Bobby Johnson hire was one of the few (perhaps the only) "friends" hire by Brian Daboll.

Last season, it didn't hurt the Giants too much because they had an excellent assistant O-line coach in Tony Sparano Jr (who left in the offseason to become the O-line coach of the Colts).  The Colts O-line is ranked 7th by PFF, while the Giants' line is ranked 29th (most likely to drop after yesterday's stinker).

I don't care how much money it will take; the Giants need to find a good offensive line coach. 

[coggs]

I'm just half-amazed and half-angry.  All of these linemen, even the worse lineman on the worse offensive line in the NFL, succeeded very well in high school.  He was taught how to handle defensive line stunts in high school, and he succeeded at high school.

Then he went to college.  He handled defensive line stunts in college, just as he was taught in high school, and he succeeded very well in college.  Otherwise he wouldn't even be invited to an NFL tryout.

Then he joins the Giants.  And now he can't handle simple defensive line stunts.

In HS, the stunts are not as sophisticated with the delays.  It usually happens immediately before the OL actually engage and most of your opponents are not nearly as talented as these guys were.

As for the OP, from what I remember, it was "feel".  Most zone blocking schemes call for 2 OL to be responsible for 2 defensive players.  Issue becomes when the G-T are working together, but they run a stunt that has the 5-tech looping in to the A gap where it may be the Center's responsibility and the C just doesnt see it or the G doesn't get a piece of him.   But, that is just thinking out loud.  I would really need to watch every play to try to figure out how the Giants are running it.

[squibber]

So is there hope that Ezudu or McKethan will ever be decent linemen? Do they have athletic traits that make it possible?

[MightyGiants]

So is there hope that Ezudu or McKethan will ever be decent linemen? Do they have athletic traits that make it possible?

I don't know about McKethan, but Ezeudu does have pretty good physical traits.

[Philosophers]

76 sacks in 14 games.  I don't think you can go back to another season and find as many sacks after 14 games.  DeVito and Jones have thrown the same amount of passes (160) with the former getting sacked 30 times and the latter 35 times.

This is not a crack in a dam but a whole dam collapse.  Stop with a better QB could succeed amidst that OL ruin.  Maybe another QB throws a few more completions or generates another TD or two but you are not getting a top 10 performance. 

Fire the OL coach.  Bring in a proven OL coach.

Draft/FA more starters

Draft a new QB.