Giants O-line issues are not from a lack of trying

[MightyGiants]

https://x.com/DoABarrowRoll/status/1739674604128378996?s=20

[T200]

So, they're investing draft capital to correct the offensive line issues. Taking into account the other thread's mentions regarding former Giants offensive linemen who are doing well with their new teams, the talent may not be the issue.

When will the line coaching issue be addressed?

[Bob In PA]

Well, to me, those stats are making the case for either "bad coaching" or "bad drafting."

Which of them do you think is more likely?

To be fair, a couple of the guys represented by those stats IMO fall into the category of "didn't play enough yet to say if he's a bust."

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Well, to me, those stats are making the case for either "bad coaching" or "bad drafting."

Which of them do you think is more likely?

To be fair, a couple of the guys represented by those stats IMO fall into the category of "didn't play enough yet to say if he's a bust."

Bob

In fairness, no other position usually has as much input from position coaches (when drafting) as O-line

[DaveBrown74]

Our O line woes are definitely not due to a lack of resources being thrown at the problem. That was true in the Reese years, but not anymore.

I suspect coaching is part of it, possibly a big part. I don't think it's purely because we haven't picked/signed  talented enough players (although that's surely also part of it).

One other indirectly related point: I have heard many express the opinion that we should not draft a QB "until we have fixed the O line." There are two aspects of this opinion that I personally disagree with:

(1) Drafting a QB and attending to the O line are not mutually exclusive events. You can invest significantly in improving your O line without using a top 8 pick on it.

(2) If we draft a QB, there is no prerequisite that he play right away if we think the line is still terrible. He can be shelved for a full year or longer if they believe that is the right thing.

I get that with point number two people are highly averse to the idea of "wasting" a year with a QB on a rookie contract, but unless you literally think you're winning a Super Bowl that first year with the QB as a rookie, I don't really view it that way. A QB pick is a 15-plus year investment if you get it right, so you can't really flip out about one single year. The Chiefs didn't use Mahomes for almost his entire rookie year, and things seemed to work out ok for them.

[TDToomer]

So, they're investing draft capital to correct the offensive line issues. Taking into account the other thread's mentions regarding former Giants offensive linemen who are doing well with their new teams, the talent may not be the issue.

When will the line coaching issue be addressed?

Most likely this offseason. I think Bobby Johnson is a dead man walking. IMO it can't just be the talent. It's got to be the coaching.

[AZGiantFan]

I've been beating this drum forever, in arguing against yet again spending prime drafting capital on the OL.

When it comes to the Giants o-line I am reminded of the difference between effort and work.  Effort expends energy.  Work accomplishes something.

[AYM]

Our O line woes are definitely not due to a lack of resources being thrown at the problem. That was true in the Reese years, but not anymore.

I suspect coaching is part of it, possibly a big part. I don't think it's purely because we haven't picked/signed  talented enough players (although that's surely also part of it).

One other indirectly related point: I have heard many express the opinion that we should not draft a QB "until we have fixed the O line." There are two aspects of this opinion that I personally disagree with:

(1) Drafting a QB and attending to the O line are not mutually exclusive events. You can invest significantly in improving your O line without using a top 8 pick on it.

(2) If we draft a QB, there is no prerequisite that he play right away if we think the line is still terrible. He can be shelved for a full year or longer if they believe that is the right thing.

I get that with point number two people are highly averse to the idea of "wasting" a year with a QB on a rookie contract, but unless you literally think you're winning a Super Bowl that first year with the QB as a rookie, I don't really view it that way. A QB pick is a 15-plus year investment if you get it right, so you can't really flip out about one single year. The Chiefs didn't use Mahomes for almost his entire rookie year, and things seemed to work out ok for them.

It wasn't even true in the Reese years, as he drafted Pugh, Flowers, and Richberg - that's 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder. They just didn't solve the problem.

[Giant Jim]

So, they're investing draft capital to correct the offensive line issues. Taking into account the other thread's mentions regarding former Giants offensive linemen who are doing well with their new teams, the talent may not be the issue.

When will the line coaching issue be addressed?

Who are the former Giants offensive linemen that are doing well with other teams?

Offensive line coaches have been a revolving door for some time now. With new head coaches every 2 years came new assistant coaches. Joe Judge had several including a big named O line coach from Dallas.

[T200]

Who are the former Giants offensive linemen that are doing well with other teams?

Offensive line coaches have been a revolving door for some time now. With new head coaches every 2 years came new assistant coaches. Joe Judge had several including a big named O line coach from Dallas.

From the "Performance in the trenches" thread:

Zeitler, Hankins, Tomlison, Hill and who could forget our former guard Will Hernandez! He couldn't block for us but now he's a pro bowler in AZ
Pro-Bowl voting is now open and Arizona Cardinals fans can now select the players they believe are good enough to attend the star-studded event held in Orlando on February 4th, 2024. It may be surprising that a 2-10 team has anyone deserving of a Pro-Bowl nod, but this player has demonstrated all season that he is one of the premier talents at his position. That player is Arizona Cardinals right guard Will Hernandez.

Offensive linemen rarely get the recognition they deserve, and it would be a shame if the amazing season that Will Hernandez has compiled comes and goes without any accolades. He has been the brightest spot on an inconsistent offensive line, and a key part of the entire offense.

The Arizona Cardinals' offensive strength this season has been their ground game, and that would not be possible without the contributions of Will Hernandez. He has shown time and time again that he is capable of using his 332-pound frame to toss around defensive linemen like they were yesterday's news. What is seen on Sundays is also backed up by stats. The most detailed analytics for interior offensive linemen support that Will Hernandez is one of the best run blockers in the NFL right now.

ESPN's analytics department created a stat called run block win rate to compare and measure offensive line performance. It is a tool that became so popular that general managers across the NFL use it as an evaluation tool. Based on this statistic, Will Hernandez ranks as the second-best run blocking guard in the entire league, behind only Eagles offensive lineman Landon Dickerson. Hernandez has won an astonishing 79% of his 243 run blocking reps, helping James Conner to achieve career highs in rushing efficiency.

[DaveBrown74]

It wasn't even true in the Reese years, as he drafted Pugh, Flowers, and Richberg - that's 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder. They just didn't solve the problem.

Yeah but if memory serves those were really the only three in the first few rounds over pretty much his whole tenure, which was a solid decade.

[TDToomer]

Pugh and Richburg were solid picks. There were surrounded with dreck.

[DaveBrown74]

Pugh and Richburg were solid picks. There were surrounded with dreck.

I agree. Both were constantly getting hurt though. I feel like the Giants ultimately just gave up and didn't want to spend any more money on them. No surprise their subsequent employers found ways to do a better job of keeping them on the field.

[babywhales]

The Giants Oline thrived and then failed under Pat Flattery from 2004-2015. 

Mike Solari was brought in and considered a top notch Oline Coach every team he has every coached has done well accept the 2017 Giants, 2009 Seahawks, 2008 Seahawks. Unfortunately, the 2017 Giants were the end of his time in NY.

Hal hunter was a disaster as was Columbo, Sale and now Johnson.

Flattery and Solari are extremely good top notch O line coaches, and both had very bad years with the Giants. 

IMO, a top notch Oline coach is definitely needed but by no means is not a guarantee.

[Jclayton92]

If I'm the Giants I believe you've got to either A) poach one of these Asst Oline Coaches from teams with consistently good lines. Like a Scott Peter's from the Browns, Roy Istvan from the Eagles, or Mike Devlin from the Ravens. B) Find the best technician that was a player that wants to coach and help kids. If you look at a lot of the trends on successful teams currently they have players coaching who have been there and done it ie the Lions staff.