Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 07:13:10 AM2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

I'll grant you that point; however, that's not the point being discussed here. The point was made that a high-performing Olines were the most critical component to Eli's and Brady's success, during thier primes. Clearly, that statement is factually false. 

BTW, Eli was fairly consistent between 2008 and 15, regardless of his oline rankings:

2008*   27   NYG   QB   16   289   479   60.3   3238   21   10   86.4   66.9   PB
2009   28   NYG   QB   16   317   509   62.3   4021   27   14   93.1   71.7   
2010   29   NYG   QB   16   339   539   62.9   4002   31   25   85.3   57.7   
2011*   30   NYG   QB   16   359   589   61   4933   29   16   92.9   64.2   AP CPoY-6, PB
2012*   31   NYG   QB   16   321   536   59.9   3948   26   15   87.2   67   PB
2013   32   NYG   QB   16   317   551   57.5   3818   18   27   69.4   38.6   
2014   33   NYG   QB   16   379   601   63.1   4410   30   14   92.1   61   
2015*   34   NYG   QB   16   387   618   62.6   4432   35   14   93.6   57.9   PB

Age clearly caught up with him during the 2016+ seasons...

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 03, 2024, 07:52:30 PMIf we don't finish last we'll be third. That is our realistic ceiling.

I have to think the Eagles are the odds-on favorite to win the division.  I am not sure Dallas won't look very diminished this season.   Washington's standings will depend on how quickly all the draft picks and free agents can come together.

I think if everything falls right, the Giants could top out at 2nd in the division

Quote from: gregf on May 03, 2024, 09:37:34 PMWinner: Kayvon, help on the other side. Jones. JMS,  vets to help with stunts next to him. Bellinger,  chance to be a starter. 
Loser: Ojularri. Drx, nit enough DT quality or depth. Neal, might get pushed out ar RT.

It's funny; I have seen many list Ojulari as a loser.  I wonder if perhaps being a backup, Ojulari will finally stay healthy and perhaps find a niche (or at least that's what I hope)

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 06:37:46 PMWinner Pinnock, Bobby Ok, and Flott- Pinnock because he gets to stay at FS and continue to grow with Nubin at Strong. Flott because drafting Phillips gets him another Shot at boundaOK, Bobby Ok will thrive with all the talent around him on the front 7, and only get better.

Losers- Belton, Bellinger, and Gray- Drafting a safety let's Belton know that he will only get snaps if he beats Pinnock. Since Bellinger has been drafted we traded for a TE, and drafted another. I think he's the first person at risk of losing his job because Theo is a better talent now than Bellinger is now. Gray got stuck in the doghouse and never got out, maybe taking KR duties away finally will let him focus.

Jess,

Those are some interesting observations.  I never considered Bellinger at risk of losing his job (I still think of pre-injury rookie Bellinger), but you very well may be right


As for Flott, I thought Phillips is very similar to Flott, so I wonder if perhaps Flott may be in jeopardy of making the roster, especially if they signed a veteran with similar inside/outside flexibility

Quote from: BlueMoshik on Today at 06:23:27 AMGeorge Young ran the team as a dictator. For better or worse. In effect, the NFL took over the Giants franchise in 1979 after "The Fumble" because Wellington Mara had run it into the ground with 15 years of mismanagement and awful decision-making and his nephew Tim, Jr., had to step in and block Wellington's rule. Wellington and his side of the family owned 50% of the franchise and Tim's family (as the son of Wellington's sister) owned the other 50%. Pete Rozelle essentially forced Wellington to hire Young as a GM and to become a figurehead signing checks and hanging out on the field with the players while Young ran the show. That went really well for about 10 years until Young lost his touch in the 1990s, especially when he drafted Dave Brown and cut Phil Simms about 2-3 years too soon (though he did manage to draft Michael Strahan and Tiki Barber before retiring). Accorsi wasn't a great GM but he drafted Eli and Tom Coughlin was hired as HC during his tenure (against Accorsi's desires, he and Coughlin didn't really get along). By then, the Maras were once again involved in decision-making.

The Giants ownership is an odd structure. John Mara is not the owner. He and his brother Chris are part co-owners, and their side of the Mara family owns 50% of the team. The other 50% is owned by the Tisch family, which bought that share from Tim Mara, Jr.'s family. For me, the problem begins once the ownership and professional side are mixed. For instance, Chris Mara is both a Giants executive and a co-owner. Which means, essentially, that he can never be fired. And John Mara cannot be fired as team president, though he is clearly incompetent at his job.

The Giants have been a bad team since 2012 because, essentially, the owners have made a string of poor hires at both the GM position (Gettleman, who wasn't a puppet, just bad), and head coach (McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, while the jury is out on Daboll). It's as simple as that. 

Perfect post that sums up the state of the Giants. I agree that Young did lose touch. The Ray Handley hiring, though he had to rush into that was a debacle. And then the Dave Brown mistake. You are very correct about how John Mara, whether he wants to or not, is involved in the running of the football team. I repeat that there is no conspiracy. It's just that Mara hires those he feels comfortable with and are aligned with his conservative (in team running) sensibilities. He wants someone on the same page as he is. Thus we fans have suffered for over a decade with no end in sight unless lady luck interferes.

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was able to overcome terrible oline play
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to giving up just 16 sacks
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB role in that stat; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on Today at 01:12:32 AMYou're forgetting the offsetting that occurs when the Giants signed players. Runyon effectively cancelled out Saquon with a similar AAV.

This! it's not just who a team loses but who the team signs.  That's why the Giants would have been far better-served trading Saquan and McKinney last season at the deadline than letting them walk.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 08:40:01 PMAll of those accomplishments you listed happened as a rookie besides the coming back against a horrible Arizona team. Most of the people he was listed with outside Peyton and Russell haven't exactly taken the league by storm.

Kinda like the "how it started, how it's going" meme.

As a Rookie he also has the 3rd most turnovers for a rookie in NFL history with 5 less than Deshon Kizer and 2 less than Geno Smith.

100s of QB have played against bad teams, and never had they done what DJ did.   Look, in the end, you and @kingm56 and the other critics of Jones could ultimately be proven correct in that he will never be a quality starting quarterback.  In fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.

That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair.  There have been flashes of brilliance by Jones; that is something most reasonable people would agree.   Flashes of brilliance don't mean Jones will ultimately be successful, so why not just concede the more than fair point?   It's like the other claim I hear from some of the critics, claiming the Giants have no one to throw them the ball.  As Jordan Raanan says, that's silly.  Jones has his flaws, but he is also an NFL thrower.  It's not like Jones is some little leaguer trying to play in the majors.

I don't think it hurts your case to concede the positives of the man.  If anything, it gives your opinions more validity because it shows you are capable of seeing and acknowledging the good and the bad.  If someone is only willing to see what supports their beliefs and finds excuses to dismiss anything else,  I tend not to value those opinions very highly as they are formed with a flawed process.

So we don't have to agree, but we all should find common ground in acknowledging the good and the bad.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 01:52:01 AMExpecting our O-Line to improve to average is putting a LOT of faith in the new O-Line coach.

Last year, we felt the Giants offense could take a step up.  We hoped that rookie JMS would play well and Neal would get his act together.  While I was optimistic, the old saying, "hope is not a substitute for a plan" kept playing in my head.

Quote from: TONKA56 on Today at 06:50:21 AMDon't forget also that in 2011 Victor Cruz exploded onto the scene from nowhere. Defenses had no answer for Cruz, Nicks, and Manningham and had to pick thier poison. Meanwhile Jake Ballard developed a penchant for the amazing clutch catch. 

So I'd say Manning, JPP, and Cruz carried the Giants to the playoffs. 

No doubt, Tonka.  I was merely responding to false-narrative that Brady and Manning required high-performing Olines to be successful.  Cruz was as integral to the Giants' success as JPP, but no player was as important as Eli...what a great year he had!