Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 08:42:26 PM3 pages to answer a multiple choice question is something I've personally never seen before lol.

Nuance is difficult with a multiple choice questions.  It is not a multiple choice world.  My own position didn't fit anywhere within those choices.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:26:01 PMSounds like where in violent agreement, Rich.

Maybe on process, but not on outcome.

Ironically you don't seem to like Jones that much but now seem to be willing to transition tag him if they don't have a suitable draft target, while I like Jones a lot* but I think the 28 million the tag would cost is too much and would be too much of an impediment to resigning our key players and filling some of our myriad holes with solid middle cost players and maybe one bigger signing. Same reason I prefer not signing Barkley.  The Giants window of opportunity with Jones closed when they failed to use the years of his cheap rookie contract to successfully build out the team.  But he is worth good money to a team that is built out already but who lack a QB, IMO.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I like Jones more than you do, but you are more willing to transition tag him than I am.

*I've previously opined that on an offense with a competent NFL quality OL and NFL quality receivers (not an offense with elites at every position, as some have distorted the position) Jones would be a top ten QB.  My sense is you wouldn't agree.

Of course there is a decent chance that I am completely wrong, which is why I'm glad I'm not making the decisions. 

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:42:58 PMThat's true for everyone whose revenue and/or contacts is predicated by viewership.  It's all about content, regardless of the accuracy of said content. I'd recommend posters do their own critical thinking and analysis, vice consuming multiple podcasts.

Hence why I don't post these kinds of things myself.  But there are a lot of guys who provide meat to get eyeballs, not just pure clickbait that is devoid of content beyond just a throwaway  opinion.  Like the guy who does the detailed film breakdowns under 'Talking Giants', Bobby Skinner, or the guy who did the Thib's breakdown over the last 3 games that I posted - I don't even know the name or credentials of the guy who runs 'The Football Scout' but I know his breakdown deepened my understanding.  I'd love to see him do a similar video on this last, monster, game Thibs had.  Or the guy who does the QB School website who did a nice breakdown after the London game.  Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_YlNSwUME&t=9s

For me, things like this provide actual value.

And considering that my position on Jones is pretty unique on this board, I think it's clear that I don't follow any of these guys as gurus, I do my own thinking.  You may not agree with my thinking, but it is my own.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 03:00:52 PMPersonally, I find it astonishing, outrageous even, that a group of people who have zero NFL experience, either as a coach, executive, scout, or player, and (barring perhaps one or two exceptions) have never played serious college football even, think they are more knowledgeable about this sport or a specific player than a Hall of Fame TE who won three Super Bowls, was a first team all pro four times, and spent a number of years practicing and playing with one of the ten greatest QBs ever to play this game (John Elway).

For some random dude sitting at home or at work in front of his computer who has never sniffed an NFL paycheck to refer to Shannon Sharpe as a "shock-jock", and for others here to deny that he's an expert on this sport (or imply as much), simply because what he had to say doesn't happen to suit their agendas, shows how far some are willing to go to defend their views and besmirch others whom they have absolutely no business doing that to and look ridiculous while doing it.

It is especially hard to fathom considering a lot of these same people post random tweets and articles written by some random nobody with zero professional football credentials just because the content is attempting to pump a certain player up that they want to see pumped up.

Pretty wild and crazy stuff if you ask me. But hey, the truth is that nothing really surprises me that much anymore these days.

Maybe it's that lots of other professionals have given an opposite argument and included analysis while the guy in question makes his money by providing controversial opinions and just threw out a clickbait tweet without anything behind it.  I have a much higher regard for his brother Sterling, who used to do that show with Baldinger analyzing upcoming match-ups.  I don't see a lot of Shannon, but I can't recall ever seeing him doing any serious analysis.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 12:33:35 PMThat's the problem right there, I don't think Jones is a superstar but I don't think he's garbage either. I think he's ok but not for 20 or 30 million a year. Tannehill got a 4yr 118 million and because of that aav of 29 million a year coupled with Henry's contract, those two single handedly handicapped the Titans. We got Adoree because of that, and the Eagles got AJ Brown, they lost most of their home grown talent on defense and offense because of a contract for a great RB and decent QB.

Can 2 people single handedly do something?  LOL

Just teasing.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:40:03 AMThe other teams will ONLY come into play IF the Giants let him test the market.

Otherwise if you believe the rules no other team or their representatives can speak to DJ or his agent and manipulate that price.

Personally I don't believe teams follow this rule!

Unless the Giants offer him the kind of big money contract that would cause heads to explode around here I think he'd be foolish not test the FA market and see what is out there.  But there we go talking about money again.    

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 23, 2022, 11:21:33 AMThere is only one opinion that matters!

That's the Giants specifically JS!

Everyone else is just flapping gums including us.

Everyone has a right to their opinion!  It's when people think their opinions actually matter more then others that there is an issue.

JS and the GMs of the several teams looking for a QB.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 11:11:30 AMI'm not trying to help or hurt anything, he made a comment, I agree hes just a guy, that's where it ends lol

If anyone thinks otherwise that is perfectly fine.

Despite having been a great player, I've never looked at him as being any kind of football mind.  Not nearly as good a football mind as his brother.  IOW, when it comes to football knowledge his is JAG.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 23, 2022, 10:58:24 AMOutside of having similar personalities, being white and physically the same size Eli and Daniel Jones are nothing a like in their games.

Leadership, toughness, an inability to perform well when the offense is trash, ability to flash in 4th quarter situations.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 23, 2022, 10:24:45 AMAnyone who posts one side of a discussion or argument is biased. No matter how they justify in their heads. With the exception of a few people like Tim, DB, Slugger who are more open minded. If you haven't noticed, I've posted both positive and negative about this QB. Usually to just balance the discussion.

I feel like I'm in a strange position here as I simultaneously believe that:

A) he is seriously under-rated here - with an average NFL-quality OL and a decent set of NFL-quality WRs (not 'elites at every position' as some have tried to frame it) I think he can be a top ten QB in the league.  If you look at it like horse-racing where they handicap the horses, he is currently carrying some of the highest weights in the field - and will do considerably better when he only has to carry average weight.

B) the best thing the Giants can do is let him (and Barkley) go so they have fully freed up resources to focus on attacking their many holes, solidifying the holes in a promising defense and adding quality in an offense, and to continue the horse analogy, reducing the handicap weight so the next guy gets a fair shot at developing during his rookie contract, something DJ's never had.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 23, 2022, 08:22:51 AMhttps://twitter.com/ShannonSharpe/status/1595928496496574464

I'm not sure whether citing Shannon Sharpe helps or hurts your case, LOL.

Quote from: GMenRF on December 23, 2022, 07:22:41 AMThat number is always skewed since DJ can scramble to buy more time and not to mention the amount of playactions we run especially earlier in the season.

Exactly.  Ignoring how his his scrambling affects his time to throw still comes up.  But if he spends a lot of the 5 second average running for his life it is hardly the same as sitting in a nice clean pocket surveying the field for 5 seconds.  And the idea that there are metrics that counter the notion that a 40% increase in sacks is an indication that pass pro got worse doesn't pass my smell test.  It seems like an excuse for the O-line, to me.

But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion - I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.  In the end this will all be determined by football people when we see what the Giants and other teams think in cold hard cash, and then his how his future performance goes.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 22, 2022, 08:32:26 PMBy what standard?   The metrics says it's better than last year.  Did you see the post from Ed a few weeks ago? 

Last year they averaged giving up 2.2 sacks per game.  This year they have been averaging 3.1 sacks per game, more than a 40% increase.  In the face of these facts I would not give credence to any metric that says their pass pro has even stayed the same, let anyone improved.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-per-game

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 05:19:27 PMPersonnel has changed on both the WR and O-Line units.  Play caller has also changed.......

I wonder what hasn't changed? 

The lack of quality of both groups.  Although they did really change, the O-line clearly got worse in pass pro, and the WRs declined largely due to injury.

I know where you want to take this, but you have to deal with these facts. The personnel may have changed in these units, but is a very hard case to make that change meant improvement.  Impossible, in the case of the pass pro.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 05:21:54 PMLast year there was also a lot of talk about how Jones didn't have a running game to lean on (as Barkley was bad last year). This year not only did we get rid of Jason Garrett and replace him with Daboll/Kafka, but Barkley is the Pro Bowl starter now. And yet the passing numbers still are not materially different from past years.

Well, the pass pro DID get a lot worse, so there's that.