3 min Vid of Kyle Rudolph talking about DJ on Kay Adams show.

[Rambo89]

The ones that know the roster, its players, strengths and weaknesses. The ones who do the research.

You hear "fans" and even media on the radio, social media and so forth talk about their team or a team and not know there record (based on whatever they happen to bring up), how to say/spell the players(s) name, or if the player is even on our/their team anymore.

If you did the research you can believe DJ will suck or become a HOF, that's up to you if you can back it up with facts, more power to you. We can agree to disagree. Like last year when DJ had a rough start in training camp, people right away wanted Taylor over DJ. This year Tommy looked better than Taylor as preseason went on. Think Tommy could have had a chance at 2nd qb, if the coaches deemed it. They wanted Taylor and while I preferred Tommy, I respect the coaches decisions because they have more info atm. But we have also seen many coaches not make moves or changes when it has been obvious.


I believe DJ has a bright future, but I'm not putting him in the HOF lol, time will tell where he lands.

Who are you to say who has and hasn't done the research.  The research and facts say that the Giants have had a bad passing offense with Daniel Jones as their Starting QB.  They were 26th a year ago in what was supposedly Jones's best season.  Daniel Jones had a losing record in college as a starter and has a losing record as a starter in the NFL.  Those are the facts whether we like them or not.

Saying a QB has a bright future is something you say about a rookie or even a second year QB not a fifth year QB who was just handed a big money off season.  The future is now when it comes to production and Daniel Jones meaning this season.

[DragonSoul]

Who are you to say who has and hasn't done the research.  The research and facts say that the Giants have had a bad passing offense with Daniel Jones as their Starting QB.  They were 26th a year ago in what was supposedly Jones's best season.  Daniel Jones had a losing record in college as a starter and has a losing record as a starter in the NFL.  Those are the facts whether we like them or not.

Saying a QB has a bright future is something you say about a rookie or even a second year QB not a fifth year QB who was just handed a big money off season.  The future is now when it comes to production and Daniel Jones meaning this season.

"The research and facts say that the Giants have had a bad passing offense with Daniel Jones as their Starting QB.  They were 26th a year ago in what was supposedly Jones's best season. Those are the facts whether we like them or not."

What you wrote is 100% factual, but does context/circumstance not matter?

Also they were the worst deep play team as well (20 yards or more) rated 31st in 21 and 32nd last year. All factual as well.

"Saying a QB has a bright future is something you say about a rookie or even a second year QB not a fifth year QB who was just handed a big money off season.  The future is now when it comes to production and Daniel Jones meaning this season."

Again, context/circumstances doesn't matter for an individual or team to shine or stink? 21 & 22 rosters were fairly same considering, yet one team made it to the playoffs while the other didn't. Was there not circumstances involved and those circumstances can be put into context into why?

I agree 2nd yr under same coach and improved weapons I expect more from DJ. By the way did you also know DJ had one of the least separation from his wr and defenders last year and yet was one of the most accurate passers? Now imagine what happens with wrs that can get separation this year (hopefully).

[Thegratefulhead]

Jones became the first QB in NFL postseason history to throw for 300 yards and multiple TDs while rushing for 70 or more yards against Minnesota.

That is a fact too.

Jones does not need yards or TDs.

Jones needs to LEAD the offense to score points and not turn the ball over.

[Rambo89]

"The research and facts say that the Giants have had a bad passing offense with Daniel Jones as their Starting QB.  They were 26th a year ago in what was supposedly Jones's best season. Those are the facts whether we like them or not."

What you wrote is 100% factual, but does context/circumstance not matter?

Also they were the worst deep play team as well (20 yards or more) rated 31st in 21 and 32nd last year. All factual as well.

"Saying a QB has a bright future is something you say about a rookie or even a second year QB not a fifth year QB who was just handed a big money off season.  The future is now when it comes to production and Daniel Jones meaning this season."

Again, context/circumstances doesn't matter for an individual or team to shine or stink? 21 & 22 rosters were fairly same considering, yet one team made it to the playoffs while the other didn't. Was there not circumstances involved and those circumstances can be put into context into why?

I agree 2nd yr under same coach and improved weapons I expect more from DJ. By the way did you also know DJ had one of the least separation from his wr and defenders last year and yet was one of the most accurate passers? Now imagine what happens with wrs that can get separation this year (hopefully).

This is what is called moving the Goal Posts in the discussion.

Jones became the first QB in NFL postseason history to throw for 300 yards and multiple TDs while rushing for 70 or more yards against Minnesota.

That is a fact too.

Jones does not need yards or TDs.

Jones needs to LEAD the offense to score points and not turn the ball over.

Against what was one of the worst passing defenses in the league.  Against one of the best the following week he was putrid.

[DragonSoul]

This is what is called moving the Goal Posts in the discussion.

Facts & context matter. Can't have one without the other. Then again, everyone has a right to their opinion.

[Stringer Bell]

Sure doesn't take much to completely derail a DJ thread....lol

[Rambo89]

Facts & context matter. Can't have one without the other. Then again, everyone has a right to their opinion.

Facts are what matter.  Facts are production and wins.  Context is moving the goal posts when you don't like the facts.

[DaveBrown74]

Why would they need a tear-down rebuild? Just replace the QB.

Agreed. Look at the 9ers post Lance/Garropolo.

Rams post Goff.

Eagles post Wentz


You don't need to gut the whole team if you have a good roster but just need a better QB.

[DragonSoul]

Sure doesn't take much to completely derail a DJ thread....lol

Ala Eli threads lol

[kingm56]

Ala Eli threads lol

Apples-to-Jeep comparison; having a discussion about a QB starting his first full and/or second season, is vastly different than discussing a QB with 50+ starts.  I never had any doubts about Eli; in his second season, he was top five in some critical statistical categories. Plus Eli was a stud in HS and college.  Finally, by this time in Eli's career, he was a SB MVP.  There is no correlation with Eli; yet, the comparisons seem to persist. 

[MightyGiants]

Apples-to-Jeep comparison; having a discussion about a QB starting his first full and/or second season, is vastly different than discussing a QB with 50+ starts.  I never had any doubts about Eli; in his second season, he was top five in some critical statistical categories. Plus Eli was a stud in HS and college.  Finally, by this time in Eli's career, he was a SB MVP.  There is no correlation with Eli; yet, the comparisons seem to persist. 

How to you rate the talent (and coaching) around Eli his first 4 seasons compared to the talent (and coaching around Daniel Jones?

[kingm56]

How to you rate the talent (and coaching) around Eli his first 4 seasons compared to the talent (and coaching around Daniel Jones?

Well, the year the Giants drafted Eli they had the #4 overall pick; the following year they would have drafted #12.  That's a pretty strong indication the talent was lacking.  However, I do agree DJ had limited talent to work with, which is why I never rated him in the bottom 1/3 of QB, which is where his production suggest he should rate. Taking his limited supporting cast into consideration, I've always thought he was better than average (#12 - 16).  As you know, my primary concern is winning a SB, which is incredibly difficult without a top 10 QB, at least in terms of passing production. That's my only concern with DJ.... 

[MightyGiants]

Well, the year the Giants drafted Eli they had the #4 overall pick; the following year they would have drafted #12.  That's a pretty strong indication the talent was lacking.  However, I do agree DJ had limited talent to work with, which is why I never rated him in the bottom 1/3 of QB, which is where his production suggest he should rate. Taking his limited supporting cast into consideration, I've always thought he was better than average (#12 - 16).  As you know, my primary concern is winning a SB, which is incredibly difficult without a top 10 QB, at least in terms of passing production. That's my only concern with DJ.... 

Matt,

This is the talent Eli worked with during his rookie season (the one you suggested was lacking talent).  How would this, his weakest supporting cast, compare to what Jones worked with in his first four years?


RB   Tiki Barber*   
FB   Jim Finn   
WR   Ike Hilliard   
WR   Amani Toomer   
TE   Jeremy Shockey
LT   Luke Petitgout      
LG   Jason Whittle         
C   Shaun O'Hara         
RG   Chris Snee      
RT   David Diehl   

[kingm56]

Matt,

This is the talent Eli worked with during his rookie season (the one you suggested was lacking talent).  How would this, his weakest supporting cast, compare to what Jones worked with in his first four years?


RB   Tiki Barber*   
FB   Jim Finn   
WR   Ike Hilliard   
WR   Amani Toomer   
TE   Jeremy Shockey
LT   Luke Petitgout      
LG   Jason Whittle         
C   Shaun O'Hara         
RG   Chris Snee      
RT   David Diehl   

Rich,

Are you now suggesting that a team isn't what thier records says they are?  Just yesterday you were telling us something very different when discussing the Giants 11 wins last season.  If you believe the statement you made yesterday is still accurate, than I submit the Giants won 4 games, which directly led to Eli's acquisition; the year following they won 6 games.  So, if a team is what their records says they are, than the records speaks to the talent...

[Thegratefulhead]

Facts are what matter.  Facts are production and wins.  Context is moving the goal posts when you don't like the facts.

Facts are statements that are unequivocally true.

They CAN be statements that detail wins or production.

Context is the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

Moving the goalposts is an example of an informal fallacy.