Can we talk about Joe Schoen too?

[fromthebside]

Barkley isn't worth a long-term deal either.

He's worth it more than Jones.  Barkley is a proven commodity.  When he's on, he is a weapon.  Get him in space and he'll get you yardage.  He makes the play action work.  Right now, there is no threat of a run game or any threat coming out of the backfield.  But on the flip side, he has a high ankle sprain and isn't playing again. 

[MightyGiants]

He's worth it more than Jones.  Barkley is a proven commodity.  When he's on, he is a weapon.  Get him in space and he'll get you yardage.  He makes the play action work.  Right now, there is no threat of a run game or any threat coming out of the backfield.  But on the flip side, he has a high ankle sprain and isn't playing again. 

Barkley is hurt, and the odds are good that he will continue to get hurt.    Frankly, the Barkley model is outdated, in my opinion.  Teams are better served with a duo of good RBs than just one really good RB.  The duo allows injuries (which RBs are more prone to) to be better handled, and the reduced workload can extend the RB's careers and reduce the chances of injury.

[fromthebside]

Barkley is hurt, and the odds are good that he will continue to get hurt.    Frankly, the Barkley model is outdated, in my opinion.  Teams are better served with a duo of good RBs than just one really good RB.  The duo allows injuries (which RBs are more prone to) to be better handled, and the reduced workload can extend the RB's careers and reduce the chances of injury.

His model is not outdated.  The Adrian Peterson model is outdated.  RBs that can't block or catch are a hindrance in the passing game.  Adrian was a beast and still has some value, but in the wide-open offenses, you have to keep the defenses honest.  Barkley does that.  yes, you need to have a stable of RBs but they have to have some value.  The healthy backs that the Giants have right now are barely serviceable.  They are not threats and the defenses don't need 8 men in the box.  Barkley, to your point, when healthy, is a difference maker.  You pay difference makers. 

[RelaxTension]

He's worth it more than Jones.  Barkley is a proven commodity.  When he's on, he is a weapon.  Get him in space and he'll get you yardage.  He makes the play action work.  Right now, there is no threat of a run game or any threat coming out of the backfield.  But on the flip side, he has a high ankle sprain and isn't playing again. 

Come on now it's fine to make a mistake and sign Barkley long-term because another mistake of a long-term contract was signed by another player

[MightyGiants]

His model is not outdated.  The Adrian Peterson model is outdated.  RBs that can't block or catch are a hindrance in the passing game.  Adrian was a beast and still has some value, but in the wide-open offenses, you have to keep the defenses honest.  Barkley does that.  yes, you need to have a stable of RBs but they have to have some value.  The healthy backs that the Giants have right now are barely serviceable.  They are not threats and the defenses don't need 8 men in the box.  Barkley, to your point, when healthy, is a difference maker.  You pay difference makers. 

part of the problem with a Barkley is you have to pay him.  His 10+ million salary makes him the 7th highest-paid RB in the league.  I would rather have 2 lower-paid RBs or better yet at least one on a cheap rookie deal.  When you have a RB like Barkley GMs are loath to bring in another quality RB because they know Barkley is going to get most of the carries (if healthy) and they tend to neglect them in the draft (for the same reason). 

[DaveBrown74]

part of the problem with a Barkley is you have to pay him.  His 10+ million salary makes him the 7th highest-paid RB in the league.  I would rather have 2 lower-paid RBs or better yet at least one on a cheap rookie deal.  When you have a RB like Barkley GMs are loath to bring in another quality RB because they know Barkley is going to get most of the carries (if healthy) and they tend to neglect them in the draft (for the same reason). 

Totally agree. Smart teams like the Eagles understand this (and have for years). Teams that put all their eggs into one RB do not win Super Bowls.

[fromthebside]

part of the problem with a Barkley is you have to pay him.  His 10+ million salary makes him the 7th highest-paid RB in the league.  I would rather have 2 lower-paid RBs or better yet at least one on a cheap rookie deal.  When you have a RB like Barkley GMs are loath to bring in another quality RB because they know Barkley is going to get most of the carries (if healthy) and they tend to neglect them in the draft (for the same reason). 

What's stopping them from bringing in another quality back?  Barkley, to your point, is hurt.  but he is a quality back.  Brightwell, Breida, Gray doesn't make the opposing defenses have to focus on them.  They're backups forced in to starting roles and their lack of value is now showing.  None of them should be getting more than 10 looks a game.  You need to have the best of the best on the field.  And these backup RBs aren't it.  Barkley has his limitations as far as health, but his skillset is valued.  Run, pass, and block.  You need quality, not just quantity.

[Rambo89]

What? Do you have a Jones agenda?

It's not a Jones agenda.  It's math when it comes to the salary cap.  It's why it's much more difficult to put together a solid deep roster when you have a QB on their 2nd contract.  It's why KC had to deal Hill because with Mahomes's contract they couldn't afford to keep him.

Once Jones got off his rookie contract and the decision to pay him was made they not only committed themselves to Jones but also gave themselves less cap room to put together the rest of the roster.

Is everyone fine with hoping the coaches can make these players servicable? It seems like other teams have been successful like the Hawks were on Monday so the issues could be with the coaching staff and blocking schemes. 

This is a great point and where the issue is.  It's not that the Giants haven't made investments in the offensive line it's that they haven't gotten the ROI out of the investments they've made.  Meaning they either have invested in the wrong players or they are not being coached well as a unit.  The Giants offensive line coach has to be on thin ice at this point and will be a casualty if things don't improve.

[BluesCruz]

all this talk reminds me of a dog chasing its tail

The season is not over.  12 games to go

A turnaround would be nice, maybe improbable but possible

I have not thrown in the towel as yet.   lets see how it all plays out before building a gallows

[Gmo11]

all this talk reminds me of a dog chasing its tail

The season is not over.  12 games to go

A turnaround would be nice, maybe improbable but possible

I have not thrown in the towel as yet.   lets see how it all plays out before building a gallows

They have the Dolphins and Bills up next on their schedule.  Last week was as close to a must win as you can have and they not only lost, they were non-competitive.  The only way they can hang with either of these next two teams is if those teams completely take the week off as far as preparations go believing they could show up without any practice and still whip the Giants.  And to be honest, those teams are so good they might be able to actually do it.

[LennG]

The talk has shifted away from what the OP stated, should Schoen be held accountable?
If anyone had posted this last year, most would be looking for the tar and feathers. I would say, to a man, everyone here was pleased with the Giants last year and most were looking forward to a better year this year. , I always said the Giants would take a step back this year, but not a complete leap back to obscurity. Anyway, now that we are back to being one of the worst teams in the league, Schoen is being dragged over the hot coals. Look, I am not defending him here, but he has tried. Not everyone can see the future and know that Neal would be a bust, and Thibs would be a one-trick pony. Again, I could say with confidence that after Schoen's first draft, we were all elated by the way he got TWO potentially great players out of those first 2 picks. We were also thrilled with drafting the kid for center this first draft. So how can we now rake Schoen over the coals?
My biggest complaint with him was his giving into Jones and his agent. We all had a number for Jones, around 30-32 mil, and most thought that was fair, yet Jones demanded more, and Schoen, for whatever reason, gave in. I would have gone with Taylor, used that money to fix other problems and see what the future would bring. Jones was never the answer. Now he is the problem.
Simply said, there is NO WAY Schoen or Daboll be sent packing next year. Just no way. Once we rid ourselves of William's disastrous contract, which should have been done this past year, and eat the dead money, maybe we can start to work on some of the major problems.

[brownelvis54]

Agreed. This was always going to take a couple years to climb out of the gettleman hole. 2024 always should have been the target. What happened last year, while fun in the moment, hurt them in the long run.  If they had this season last year there's no Jones no Barkley and a fresh rebuild happening which is what they desperately need.

Schoens biggest mistake so far for me is not seeing last year as the mirage it was and thinking they could compete for anything this year.

His biggest mistake was not giving Jones his 5 year. They would be playing on his 5th year option right now and I strongly doubt he would be resigned

[files58]

I've been a fan since 1965. Their regular season record since then is 420-474, rounded up that is a .470 winning percentage for the last 58 years. Despite too few all too brief periods of success we root for a historical losing franchise even though the Giants are considered to be a NFL flagship franchise. I'll pause for a moment while you all grab a towel to wipe the cold water from your faces. Despite the fact that Schoen is not responsible for the Dick Jameses, Tommy Longos, Derrick Browns, and Ian Allens of the world Atlas would have a hard time holding up that world of truth. Yes while some of us are growing long in tooth(or don't have them any longer) we need to give some time for the Joe/Brian show to play out. They were first given a plate of cow diarrhea to hand in for the Pitmaster BBQ Contest. The look of disgust on Daboll's face Monday night tells me all he needs to know about Jones. After last season there was some hope, but Schoen correctly structured the contract with an out. If/when Daboll hoists the Lombardi as Giant coach Jones will not be the QB. Frankly the first thing to fix is the poor tackling. Football in it's essence is a violent, COLLISION sport, not a contact sport. When the Seattle TE played ole' along the sideline the first Giant to tackle(sic) him should have hit him in a full sprint anywhere from the knee to the hip sending him careening like a bowling pin into the bench area. Like LT said "play like some crazed dogs". Unfortunately there may not be enough junkyard dogs to go around. That's a topic for another thread.

[DaveBrown74]

His biggest mistake was not giving Jones his 5 year. They would be playing on his 5th year option right now and I strongly doubt he would be resigned

I think it's fair to say that with the benefit of hindsight, they should have exercised his fifth year option, but with the information they had at the time I don't regard this as having been a poor decision. Jones had not only not played well up to that point, but just as importantly he had never played a full season without missing multiple games due to a significant injury. QBs need to be more reliable than that, given the price range of the position. So I think that was a big concern at the time that weighed into their decision, and I think it was a fair concern.

[MightyGiants]

I think it's fair to say that with the benefit of hindsight, they should have exercised his fifth year option, but with the information they had at the time I don't regard this as having been a poor decision. Jones had not only not played well up to that point, but just as importantly he had never played a full season without missing multiple games due to a significant injury. QBs need to be more reliable than that, given the price range of the position. So I think that was a big concern at the time that weighed into their decision, and I think it was a fair concern.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I think Jeff's point is a strong one.  One can only make a decision based on the information at hand.