Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 03, 2024, 07:52:30 PMIf we don't finish last we'll be third. That is our realistic ceiling.

I have to think the Eagles are the odds-on favorite to win the division.  I am not sure Dallas won't look very diminished this season.   Washington's standings will depend on how quickly all the draft picks and free agents can come together.

I think if everything falls right, the Giants could top out at 2nd in the division

Quote from: gregf on May 03, 2024, 09:37:34 PMWinner: Kayvon, help on the other side. Jones. JMS,  vets to help with stunts next to him. Bellinger,  chance to be a starter. 
Loser: Ojularri. Drx, nit enough DT quality or depth. Neal, might get pushed out ar RT.

It's funny; I have seen many list Ojulari as a loser.  I wonder if perhaps being a backup, Ojulari will finally stay healthy and perhaps find a niche (or at least that's what I hope)

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 06:37:46 PMWinner Pinnock, Bobby Ok, and Flott- Pinnock because he gets to stay at FS and continue to grow with Nubin at Strong. Flott because drafting Phillips gets him another Shot at boundaOK, Bobby Ok will thrive with all the talent around him on the front 7, and only get better.

Losers- Belton, Bellinger, and Gray- Drafting a safety let's Belton know that he will only get snaps if he beats Pinnock. Since Bellinger has been drafted we traded for a TE, and drafted another. I think he's the first person at risk of losing his job because Theo is a better talent now than Bellinger is now. Gray got stuck in the doghouse and never got out, maybe taking KR duties away finally will let him focus.

Jess,

Those are some interesting observations.  I never considered Bellinger at risk of losing his job (I still think of pre-injury rookie Bellinger), but you very well may be right


As for Flott, I thought Phillips is very similar to Flott, so I wonder if perhaps Flott may be in jeopardy of making the roster, especially if they signed a veteran with similar inside/outside flexibility

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was able to overcome terrible oline play
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to giving up just 16 sacks
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB role in that stat; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on Today at 01:12:32 AMYou're forgetting the offsetting that occurs when the Giants signed players. Runyon effectively cancelled out Saquon with a similar AAV.

This! it's not just who a team loses but who the team signs.  That's why the Giants would have been far better-served trading Saquan and McKinney last season at the deadline than letting them walk.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 08:40:01 PMAll of those accomplishments you listed happened as a rookie besides the coming back against a horrible Arizona team. Most of the people he was listed with outside Peyton and Russell haven't exactly taken the league by storm.

Kinda like the "how it started, how it's going" meme.

As a Rookie he also has the 3rd most turnovers for a rookie in NFL history with 5 less than Deshon Kizer and 2 less than Geno Smith.

100s of QB have played against bad teams, and never had they done what DJ did.   Look, in the end, you and @kingm56 and the other critics of Jones could ultimately be proven correct in that he will never be a quality starting quarterback.  In fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.

That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair.  There have been flashes of brilliance by Jones; that is something most reasonable people would agree.   Flashes of brilliance don't mean Jones will ultimately be successful, so why not just concede the more than fair point?   It's like the other claim I hear from some of the critics, claiming the Giants have no one to throw them the ball.  As Jordan Raanan says, that's silly.  Jones has his flaws, but he is also an NFL thrower.  It's not like Jones is some little leaguer trying to play in the majors.

I don't think it hurts your case to concede the positives of the man.  If anything, it gives your opinions more validity because it shows you are capable of seeing and acknowledging the good and the bad.  If someone is only willing to see what supports their beliefs and finds excuses to dismiss anything else,  I tend not to value those opinions very highly as they are formed with a flawed process.

So we don't have to agree, but we all should find common ground in acknowledging the good and the bad.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 01:52:01 AMExpecting our O-Line to improve to average is putting a LOT of faith in the new O-Line coach.

Last year, we felt the Giants offense could take a step up.  We hoped that rookie JMS would play well and Neal would get his act together.  While I was optimistic, the old saying, "hope is not a substitute for a plan" kept playing in my head.

Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 03:45:01 PMYou highlighted DJs 'brilliance', while simultaneously discounting Mitch T own brilliance. The latter was an NFC player on the week and pro bowler in 2018. That's the point; a lot of NFL starters flash brilliance, which is why they're 1 of 32 people in the world to do it. 

I listed actual historic accomplishments by DJ.  Most reasonable people would consider a historic accomplishment (against a league with a 100+ year history) as "flashes of brilliance".  In what way did what you just say negate the point I made?

Quote from: B1GBLUE on May 03, 2024, 03:36:49 PMim pulling for him. you can certainly argue he does deserve an extension/raise, even though he's a bit expendable now with nabers in the fold. i do still think he's our current #2. which is a good role for him

With the injury rate the Giants suffer, it's good to have quality depth at every position

Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 03:31:40 PMPassing attempts:
1,872
Passing completions:
1,200
Completion percentage:
64.1%
TD–INT:
72–48
Passing yards:
12,536
Passer rating:
85.5

Career history

* Pro Bowl (2018)
* Third-team All-ACC (2016)

DANIEL JONES
Passing attempts:
1,900
Passing completions:
1,221
Completion percentage:
64.3%
TD–INT:
62–40
Passing yards:
12,512
Passer rating:
85.2
Rushing yards:
1,914
Rushing touchdowns:
13

Career history
* New York Giants (2019–present)
Roster status:
Active


Almost identical numbers, except Mitch has a pro bowl to his name and some college accolades.  DJ has Active player.

I'm not saying Mitch is better, but he had equal 'flashes.' Again, they are no tangible examples in 25 years, and only 1 in 40 years that support your supposition. Why do you think there are Limited, to no tangible examples?

 I do appreciate the time supporting your positions.

Matt,

You are conflating season stats with what @Uncle Mickey called "flashes of brilliance."

https://x.com/QuirkyResearch/status/1786471388540231684

I am going to add an observation I think is reasonably on topic. What is a really great driver of an offense is a long-time pairing of a receiver (WR or TE) with a quarterback. I think the longer the pair works together, the better they get.

FRIDAY, May 3, 2024 (HealthDay News) -- Primates are capable of tending to wounds using medicinal plants, a new case report says.

A male Sumatran orangutan treated a facial wound with a climbing plant known to have anti-inflammatory and pain-relieving properties, researchers say in the journal Scientific Reports.

The orangutan, named Rakus by observers, plucked leaves from a vine called Akar Kuning (Fibraurea tinctoria) and chewed on them, researchers said.

Rakus then repeatedly applied the resulting juice onto his facial wound for several minutes, before fully covering the wound with a poultice formed by the chewed leaves, researchers said.

This is the first documented case of a primate applying a known naturally occurring medicinal substance to a wound, researchers said.

It indicates that the medical wound treatment people receive at home and in urgent care clinics might have arisen in a common ancestor shared by humans and orangutans, the research team says.

"The treatment of human wounds was most likely first mentioned in a medical manuscript that dates back to 2200 BC, which included cleaning, plastering, and bandaging of wounds with certain wound care substances," researcher Caroline Schuppli, an evolutionary biologist with the Max Planck Institute of Animal Behavior in Germany, said in a news release.

https://www.healthday.com/health-news/alternative-medicine/an-orangutan-healed-himself-with-medicinal-plant


A Sumatran orangutan in Indonesia has self-medicated using a paste made from plants to heal a large wound on his cheek, say scientists.

It is the first time a creature in the wild has been recorded treating an injury with a medicinal plant.

After researchers saw Rakus applying the plant poultice to his face, the wound closed up and healed in a month.

Scientists say the behaviour could come from a common ancestor shared by humans and great apes.

"They are our closest relatives and this again points towards the similarities we share with them. We are more similar than we are different," said biologist Dr Isabella Laumer at the Max Planck institute in Germany and lead author of the research.

A research team in the Gunung Leuser National Park, Indonesia spotted Rakus with a large wound on his cheek in June 2022.

They believe he was injured fighting with rival male orangutans because he made loud cries called "long calls" in the days before they saw the wound.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-68942123

https://x.com/BigBlueVCR/status/1786466983908659583

https://x.com/JustinPenik/status/1786467649259548742

https://x.com/giantswfan/status/1786463071222841543

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 02:08:24 PMJust last year Jones accomplished something no QB in the NFL's 100+ year history ever accomplished (against the Cards)


Jones became the first quarterback ever to throw for 250 yards, rush for 50 yards, throw multiple touchdown passes, rush for a touchdown and not commit a turnover in the second half of a game.

Here were a few more flashes


Jones was the first rookie quarterback in NFL history with 2 games of 300+ passing yards and 4+ touchdown passes – and he had 3 of them.


Jones' 24 touchdown passes led all rookie quarterbacks in 2019 and were the 4th-most by a rookie in a single season in NFL history...Only Baker Mayfield (27 in 2018), Peyton Manning (26 in 1998) and Russell Wilson (26 in 2012) had more.

Jones was the 5th rookie in NFL history to throw 5 touchdown passes in a game...The others were Detroit's Matthew Stafford vs. Cleveland on Nov. 22, 2009; Tampa Bay's Jameis Winston at Philadelphia on Nov. 22, 2015; and Houston's Deshaun Watson vs. Kansas City on Oct. 8, 2017 and Ray Buivid, who played for the Chicago Bears in 1937-38...On Dec. 5, 1937, he threw 5 touchdown passes in the season finale in Wrigley Field vs. the Chicago Cardinals.

Jones joined Dallas' Dak Prescott (twice in 2016) as the only rookie quarterbacks in NFL history with 2 games of at least 300 passing yards, 2 touchdown passes and zero interceptions...The game in Washington was Jones' 3rd with at least 4 touchdown passes...The only other rookies in NFL history to do that were Watson and Pro Football Hall of Famer Fran Tarkenton in 1961.