For Joe Schoen that should be a major part of the core of the team he puts together.
2022 1 Kayvon Thibodeaux 5
2022 1 Evan Neal 7
2022 2 Wan'Dale Robinson 43
2022 3 Joshua Ezeudu 67
2022 3 Cordale Flott 81
2022 4 Daniel Bellinger 112
2022 4 Dane Belton 114
2022 5 Micah McFadden 146
2022 5 D.J. Davidson 147
2022 5 Marcus McKethan 173
2022 6 Darrian Beavers 182
While admittedly early for a definitive judgment, how many of these 11 appear on track for a second contract?
You should do this at the end of the season, Rich.
Although early, I'd say ZERO appear to be on track to have a 2nd contract.
2022 1 Kayvon Thibodeaux 5 -- disappointment thus far. Some validity to questions around how he's being used, but 1) he hasn't performed even when asked to pass rush, and 2) why draft an edge rusher so high if you're just going to ask him to set the edge, drop back in coverage?
2022 1 Evan Neal 7 -- major disappointment thus far. Has actually looked worse than last year, which is a major concern. Again, some valid questions here around coaching and development, but the eye test right now tells me Neal will not succeed at tackle. The sooner they make a decision on whether to move him, the better his chance to be successful.
2022 2 Wan'Dale Robinson 43 -- persistently injured, Robinson now seems like a luxury pick on a team full of holes. With the OL struggling to provide protection, he's a guy that should be helping with quick throws and YAC. His production in his first game was lacking.
2022 3 Joshua Ezeudu 67 -- uneven performance thus far. Wasn't able to beat out either starting guards, then performs admirably in emergency duty at LT. Team needs to give him a position and have him dive in with both feet. Shows WAY more athleticism than Neal, so I'd like to see a chance at RT.
2022 3 Cordale Flott 81 -- injured, and not even able to unseat Holmes when healthy. Had more hope for Flott, but he hasn't been able to step up. With Robinson looking like a lost cause and the potential to lose Jackson in the offseason, the team needs Flott to contribute.
2022 4 Daniel Bellinger 112 -- after a solid rookie season, hasn't found his footing in his backup role to Waller. Need him to be a force as a blocker, but too many mistakes thus far.
2022 4 Dane Belton 114 -- injured. Pinnock has seemingly staked his claim to one of the safety spots, but between McKinney's poor play and ending contract, there will likely be a spot up for grabs. I'm not convinced Belton is the man for the job, which is too bad, as a 4th round safety should be a contributor.
2022 5 Micah McFadden 146 -- has looked too slow and not athletic enough for much of his NFL career, then has game of his life against the 49ers. There's a chance for MM to be a fixture on this defense, but he needs to be a film rat and hone his instincts to make up for his lack of athleticism.
2022 5 D.J. Davidson 147 -- someone I didn't really think about, Davidson has had a strong year thus far. Let's hope the injury in last game doesn't derail the momentum he built.
2022 5 Marcus McKethan 173 -- pretty uneven in spot duty due to injuries to starters. Maybe with a better OL coach, McKethan could develop into something.
2022 6 Darrian Beavers 182 -- injured. Not sure he's a part of the team's future.
In summary, between disappointing performance of high 1st rounders and injuries, this draft class is not looking promising early on in Year 2. How long this rebuild will take will be impacted a great deal by these players' ability to step up.
They improve and Giants have a good offseason, this team can compete as soon as next year. They continue to struggle and underperform, and it sets them back another 2-3 years.
@Stringer Bell Excellent summary. I appreciate the work you put in. :ok:
I thought with all the Intel coming in from Buffalo, Philly. KC, etc that we would crush the draft. The second half looks ok,but first 4 picks are not living up to the billing so far
Quote from: sooners56 on September 26, 2023, 10:24:23 AMAlthough early, I'd say ZERO appear to be on track to have a 2nd contract.
I always go back to the Giants 2018 draft which was praised after the 2018 season. A year later and since it's gone done as one of the worst drafts in Giants history. Think we need to give this one more time.
Quote from: gregf on September 26, 2023, 11:17:48 AMI thought with all the Intel coming in from Buffalo, Philly. KC, etc that we would crush the draft. The second half looks ok,but first 4 picks are not living up to the billing so far
Greg,
I had completely forgotten this aspect of it. I remember Schoen saying he was done with the first 4 rounds in Buffalo and how the Eagles were upset that the Giants had signed Brandon Brown away so late in the draft process.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on September 26, 2023, 10:29:30 AM2022 1 Kayvon Thibodeaux 5 -- disappointment thus far. Some validity to questions around how he's being used, but 1) he hasn't performed even when asked to pass rush, and 2) why draft an edge rusher so high if you're just going to ask him to set the edge, drop back in coverage?
2022 1 Evan Neal 7 -- major disappointment thus far. Has actually looked worse than last year, which is a major concern. Again, some valid questions here around coaching and development, but the eye test right now tells me Neal will not succeed at tackle. The sooner they make a decision on whether to move him, the better his chance to be successful.
2022 2 Wan'Dale Robinson 43 -- persistently injured, Robinson now seems like a luxury pick on a team full of holes. With the OL struggling to provide protection, he's a guy that should be helping with quick throws and YAC. His production in his first game was lacking.
2022 3 Joshua Ezeudu 67 -- uneven performance thus far. Wasn't able to beat out either starting guards, then performs admirably in emergency duty at LT. Teams needs to give him a position and have him dive in with both feet. Shows WAY more athleticism than Neal, so I'd like to see a chance at RT.
2022 3 Cordale Flott 81 -- injured, and not even able to unseat Holmes when healthy. Had more hope for Flott, but he hasn't been able to step up. With Robinson looking like a lost cause and the potential to lose Jackson in the offseason, the team needs Flott to contribute.
2022 4 Daniel Bellinger 112 -- after a solid rookie season, hasn't found his footing in his backup role to Waller. Need him to be a force as a blocker, but too many mistakes thus far.
2022 4 Dane Belton 114 -- injured. Pinnock has seemingly staked his claim to one of the safety spots, but between McKinney's poor play and ending contract, there will likely be a spot up for grabs. I'm not convinced Belton is the man for the job, which is too bad, as a 4th round safety should be a contributor.
2022 5 Micah McFadden 146 -- has looked too slow and not athletic enough for much of his NFL career, then has game of his life against the 49ers. There's a chance for MM to be a fixture on this defense, but he needs to be a film rat and hone his instincts to make up for his lack of athleticism.
2022 5 D.J. Davidson 147 -- someone I didn't really think about, Davidson has had a strong year thus far. Let's hope the injury in last game doesn't derail the momentum he built.
2022 5 Marcus McKethan 173 -- pretty uneven in spot duty due to injuries to starters. Maybe with a better OL coach, McKethan could develop into something.
2022 6 Darrian Beavers 182 -- injured. Not sure he's a part of the team's future.
In summary, between disappointing performance of high 1st rounders and injuries, this draft class is not looking promising early on in Year 2. How long this rebuild will take will be impacted a great deal by these player's ability to step up.
They improve and Giants have a good offseason, this team can compete as soon as next year. They continue to struggle and underperform, and it sets them back another 2-3 years.
Solid write up.
I'm starting to think the KT pick was done without really understanding what Martindale wants from his edges. For what the Giants claim they're asking KT to do, we didn't really need to spend the #5 overall pick on that type of role player.
As far as Neal, too many teams (including Dallas who we can assume knows a little about OL) had him rated highly. I think just like Thomas improved when Columbo was sacked, Bobby Johnson probably needed to go during this mini-bye and a new guy with a fresh approach brought in. At the very least, it may be worth it to get a coach to concentrate just on working with Neal. I'm no expert on linemen, but just watching him, it seems like the problem is he's unsure what to do the first second or so on a lot of plays.
Robinson was a luxury pick, but before he was hurt it seemed like he was starting to make an impact.
Bellinger I think could be a long term functional starter at TE, not a star, but reliable.
Nobody else in the draft has done much one way or the other yet ...
But the 2022 draft is looking a little concerning at the moment. Schoen isn't above criticism for these picks.
If top picks don't play up it will be like the Trey Lance disaster for the 49ers
You usually need about 3 years to see how things pan out. IMHO it is fun to play this speculation game, but it is futile.
I remember when people were calling Andrew Thomas a bust, and now he is one of the best LT in the league if not top 1-3.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 26, 2023, 10:31:54 AM@Stringer Bell
Excellent summary. I appreciate the work you put in. :ok:
Is McKinney becoming Landon Collins 2.0 only a lesser version?
Quote from: nicky1000 on September 27, 2023, 12:47:22 AMIs McKinney becoming Landon Collins 2.0 only a lesser version?
Hard to say. It might just be a case that Mckinney is a poor fit for Wink's system
Quote from: DragonSoul on September 26, 2023, 11:45:56 PMYou usually need about 3 years to see how things pan out. IMHO it is fun to play this speculation game, but it is futile.
I remember when people were calling Andrew Thomas a bust, and now he is one of the best LT in the league if not top 1-3.
Thomas is not the best example to make the point you're trying to make IMO. He started off very poorly but then looked better later in his rookie year. Then in year two he was legitimately good.
I think if a rookie is very bad, that's one thing, but you're hopefully looking for signs of improvement by late in the rookie season and then definitely clear signs of improvement in year two. When a rookie is awful, and then he is awful again in year two, to me that's a really bad sign. That was the case with Zach Wilson for example.
In todays NFL, it doesn't take more than a year and a few games into next season to really grasp what a player is and will be. Maybe in the past it took players a few years to know (Strahan, Tuck, etc) but all the big bad defenders were known by the end of year 1 really (watt, bosa, Garrett, parsons, etc). The same goes for Olineman and WRs. Rarely does it take more than 2 years to know what kind of player you have.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 06:04:15 AMHard to say. It might just be a case that Mckinney is a poor fit for Wink's system
The new excuse for bad defensive play these days..
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 27, 2023, 09:51:37 AMThe new excuse for bad defensive play these days..
I am not making an excuse. Frankly, McKinney underperformed last season (when healthy). There is a harsh but little-discussed cost when you change coaches and schemes. Whenever you make such changes, there is always a risk of a player being a square peg trying to fit a round hole. The more drastic the changes, the greater the chances of players not fitting the new scheme.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 09:59:48 AMI am not making an excuse. Frankly, McKinney underperformed last season (when healthy). There is a harsh but little-discussed cost when you change coaches and schemes. Whenever you make such changes, there is always a risk of a player being a square peg trying to fit a round hole. The more drastic the changes, the greater the chances of players not fitting the new scheme.
Rich - what's crazy is current management drafted Thibs. Is he a bad fit or is he a talent miss? I'm tending toward the latter.
Quote from: Philosophers on September 27, 2023, 12:02:14 PMRich - what's crazy is current management drafted Thibs. Is he a bad fit or is he a talent miss? I'm tending toward the latter.
I looked at PFF's grades last year and this year (same system). Last year KT played well. I am at a loss to explain his drastic drop in performance in all aspects
(https://i.imgur.com/rUM4V3n.png)
Looks like this was a need draft especially at the top although after Gettleman, there were lots of needs. I'm of the camp to not panic and that's it's still early.
I posted this as part of the thread drift in the injuries thread, but it really fits better here:
To be fair, that draft [2022] was largely based on the remnants of Gettleman's scouting structure. That wasn't something it was reasonable to expect Schoen to be able to completely overhaul immediately, although he made what changes he could. He was hired on Jan. 21, 2022, by which time all of the in-season college scouting had been done. And any input from the Bills & Eagles scouting staff was of limited value as it would only include whatever he and Brandon Brown could remember from raw scouting reports. I doubt either team let them take scouting reports with them.
Setting up the draft board is a team effort and we had 2 guys with some prior team info none of the rest of the team had, the Gettleman team's scouting reports, and largely the Gettleman team doing the post processing in the three months between his hiring and the draft. For these reasons I personally cut him a lot of slack for the 2022 draft.
Frankly I think expectations were skewed by the team's success in 2022, which I think was more of a coaching phenomena than a drafting phenomena. It got us thinking that we were much closer than just entering into year 2 of the rebuild. And the cloud in the silver lining was that 2022's success degraded our drafting and waiver wire position.
On the GM side it was more about clearing out some players/contracts, revamping the front office and restructuring the scouting operation for 2023. And the fact that we seem to have gotten 3 starters, a potential #1 receiver, and other promising guys shows the quality of his revamping work far more than a less than stellar (so far) 2022 draft, IMO.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 06:04:15 AMHard to say. It might just be a case that Mckinney is a poor fit for Wink's system
Richie, in his first three seasons, Landon Collins was 2016 NFL Defensive Player of the Year, a one-time 1st Team All Pro, a two-time Pro Bowler, a defensive player of the month, and three times defensive player of the week. McKinney, now in his 4th season, has one defensive player of the week award.
My take is that McKinney is getting closer to being the older, rather than the younger, Landon Collins. McKinney has some work to do in order to turn that around. I hope that he does so.
Quote from: bighitterdalama on September 28, 2023, 02:29:18 PMRichie, in his first three seasons, Landon Collins was 2016 NFL Defensive Player of the Year, a one-time 1st Team All Pro, a two-time Pro Bowler, a defensive player of the month, and three times defensive player of the week. McKinney, now in his 4th season, has one defensive player of the week award.
My take is that McKinney is getting closer to being the older, rather than the younger, Landon Collins. McKinney has some work to do in order to turn that around. I hope that he does so.
I would agree, McKinney doesn't exactly have a proven body of work