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Also, oline is ranked last in the NFL. And every game even going into week 4 will be a different lineup. How can they gel and lean on one another when a player or two is always changed? Hopefully this coming game it will finally be set and they can finally grow as a group.
I think the second stat is the more damning one. Pressure under 2 seconds will blow up almost any play from any offense. It's hard to put up a consistent offense if you are averaging nine blown-up plays due to major blocking failures a game.
Until or unless they can fix this issue, the offense will continue to struggle. I feel optimistic good health will fix the issues with the left side of the line; I am not sure what can fix the issues Neal is having. However, I will say this, coaches can usually coverup the deficiencies of one weak OT via scheme providing the other OT is sound.
Jones has rushed 24 time for 107 yards.
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Here's a pretty good article on just how bad the O-line is.
Giants' offensive line unsurprisingly ranks dead last in PFF's latest rankings
https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-giants/giants-offensive-line-unsurprisingly-ranks-dead-last-in-pffs-latest-rankings/
QuoteOnly 11 guards are allowing a 9%-plus pressure rate this season, and three of them — Mark Glowinski, Shane Lemieux and Marcus McKethan — play for the Giants.
Zoltán Buday of Pro Football Focus
I saw another "interesting" stat on Jones online. It states Jones has gone 36 STRAIGHT games without having multiple passing touchdowns in back to back games!...can anyone confirm if this indeed is true?
How is Bobby Johnson still allowed to coach them?
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 27, 2023, 12:37:30 PMHow is Bobby Johnson still allowed to coach them?
He was hand-picked by Daboll (they worked together in Buffalo). I believe he was one of the first position coaches hired. In those situations, it usually takes quite a bit for the coach to get fired. As I have said before, I think this team is missing assistant O-line coach Tony Sparano Jr., who was hired by the Colts and has that line blocking well.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 12:46:05 PMHe was hand-picked by Daboll (they worked together in Buffalo). I believe he was one of the first position coaches hired. In those situations, it usually takes quite a bit for the coach to get fired. As I have said before, I think this team is missing assistant O-line coach Tony Sparano Jr., who was hired by the Colts and has that line blocking well.
Have the Bills olines played good back when these two were coaching them?
I'm sorry I don't usually watch many of the games besides the Giants.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 11:03:41 AMI think the second stat is the more damning one. Pressure under 2 seconds will blow up almost any play from any offense. It's hard to put up a consistent offense if you are averaging nine blown-up plays due to major blocking failures a game.
Until or unless they can fix this issue, the offense will continue to struggle. I feel optimistic good health will fix the issues with the left side of the line; I am not sure what can fix the issues Neal is having. However, I will say this, coaches can usually coverup the deficiencies of one weak OT via scheme providing the other OT is sound.
Agree 100%. While being worst in the league at allowing pressure on pass plays is certainly a very bad thing, allowing immediate pressure will create unavoidable failure.
And to do at a rate twice as much as the second worst team is inexcusable. Bobby Johnson needs to go. Otherwise, the buck stops with Daboll. Period.
Quote from: RelaxTension on September 27, 2023, 12:47:59 PMHave the Bills olines played good back when these two were coaching them?
I'm sorry I don't usually watch many of the games besides the Giants.
The Bills threw a lot of resources at the O-line. They never played great and good might be a stretch but they weren't as bad as what we have seen with the Giants
Quote from: Stringer Bell on September 27, 2023, 12:50:24 PMAgree 100%. While being worst in the league at allowing pressure on pass plays is certainly a very bad thing, allowing immediate pressure will create unavoidable failure.
And to do at a rate twice as much as the second worst team is inexcusable. Bobby Johnson needs to go. Otherwise, the buck stops with Daboll. Period.
I agree Bobby needs to go if this line isn't fixed. Although I am not prepared to say he should be an in-season firing
Watching the 49ers and Eagles, I realize one thing about the Giants on the O-line we have no Dawgs. I think that went with Faliciano a D-bag type player. O-line needs to be a lot of bit nasty with execution.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 11:03:41 AMI think the second stat is the more damning one. Pressure under 2 seconds will blow up almost any play from any offense. It's hard to put up a consistent offense if you are averaging nine blown-up plays due to major blocking failures a game.
Until or unless they can fix this issue, the offense will continue to struggle. I feel optimistic good health will fix the issues with the left side of the line; I am not sure what can fix the issues Neal is having. However, I will say this, coaches can usually coverup the deficiencies of one weak OT via scheme providing the other OT is sound.
Those stats confirm what my eyes have seen. As he is dropping back, the pocket is already collapsing. It's not like he makes his drop back then scans the field then gets sacked in what is more of a blend between a coverage sack and pass rush sack. No, it is a 100% early pocket collapse most of the time. I know what my eyes see.
Quote from: Philosophers on September 27, 2023, 01:18:24 PMThose stats confirm what my eyes have seen. As he is dropping back, the pocket is already collapsing. It's not like he makes his drop back then scans the field then gets sacked in what is more of a blend between a coverage sack and pass rush sack. No, it is a 100% early pocket collapse most of the time. I know what my eyes see.
One thing I also noticed is that the pressure if often coming from multiple directions. A QB can often defeat pressure from one defender but it's extremely challenging to deal with pressure from multiple defenders
Quote from: Stringer Bell on September 27, 2023, 12:50:24 PMAgree 100%. While being worst in the league at allowing pressure on pass plays is certainly a very bad thing, allowing immediate pressure will create unavoidable failure.
And to do at a rate twice as much as the second worst team is inexcusable. Bobby Johnson needs to go. Otherwise, the buck stops with Daboll. Period.
And that's where a lot of times at the LOS audibling out of a play and knowing what your hot read is vital for a QB. The coming pressure is out of his control but how a QB adjusts and reacts to it is within his control.
One big reason the pressure is so bad is that the Giants are among the lowest in the league in Rushing attempts and yards. They don't have a balanced attack. They don't freeze the LB's to open up space in the intermediate range and the opposing D-lines do not pause in their fake Play Actions and RPO's. The Oline is getting punished while they inflict no punishment on the opposing D-lines.
Jones must take some responsibility for being unable to see downfield.
I posted a question earlier relating to another interesting stat on Jones which is another area of concern which I didn't even realize. I expect a monster game out of him on Monday Night Football. He needs it desperately.
Quote from: Trench on September 27, 2023, 02:27:59 PMJones must take some responsibility for being unable to see downfield.
I posted a question earlier relating to another interesting stat on Jones which is another area of concern which I didn't even realize. I expect a monster game out of him on Monday Night Football. He needs it desperately.
QBs are not going to be looking downfield when they are pressured in under 2 seconds. That is essentially the problem of the offense (beyond what I already mentioned). With pressure landing so quickly and consistently, the Giants can't target the deep part of the field. That allows the defense to crowd the LOS, which minimizes YAC and open receivers in the short and intermediate parts of the field.
It will be hard to spread out the defense by pushing them back if they can't run the deeper plays that require the line to hold up long enough for receivers to get down the field. It really comes down to the line needs to play much better than they have. Running the ball will no doubt help the line, but ultimately it comes down to the line playing well enough as to not disrupt and limit the offense.
Rodgers does it as he backpedals. Skinner pointed things out where receivers are open downfield and he is not seeing it. Then there is the issue of rarely (if not ever) calling audibles.
I'm rooting for this guy, still am...I believed he could be All-Pro this year especially after everything I was told in preseason from writers, people who were in attendance and experts who watched him. But there unfortunately no excuse for some of what has been pointed out. Even if people keep trying.
Fact - Daniel Jones (when he is visibly fired up) is 100% a different QB. It is during these times that he has proven to be lethal. Problem is he doesn't allow it to become unleashed nearly enough.
Disclaimer - I hope I am proven wrong on any perceived negativity on this post. I sincerely do.
Anthony Rivardo
@Anthony_Rivardo
Just how bad has the Giants' offensive line been this season?
- Daniel Jones has been under pressure on 46.7% of his dropbacks, the highest rate in the league. The league average last season was 34%.
- They have allowed 27 pressures in under two seconds, nearly 2x as many as the 2nd-worst team.
- Even when using added help (blocking 6 or more players), they have still given up pressure on 53.7% of those plays, the third-highest rate in the league. The league average is 33.5%.
- Jones has earned a 44.0 PFF passing grade under pressure, 22nd among 34 qualifying quarterbacks. However, that grade jumps to 75.7 from a clean pocket, 16th at the position.
This offensive line is historically bad. The team will not succeed this season with this level of play. Something needs to change, and it needs to change quickly.
Thank the heavens Andrew Thomas and Ben Bredeson are returning this week.
-Stats via
@PFF
9:35 AM · Sep 27, 2023
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Has there been a team that has invested more draft capital into "protecting" their QB after being drafted as the Giants have Daniel Jones? They've already invested the 4th, 7th overall picks plus a 2nd rounder into offensive linemen to protect him.
Looking around the league you have Dak who has 3 1st rounders on his line however, 2 of them were drafted years before the Cowboys drafted Dak. Herbert has 2 first rounders on his line drafted after he was taken but Herbert has also put up big time production his first 3 season's in the league. Beyond those two I can't think of another who has had their franchise invest as much into their offensive line in draft capital as the Giants have.
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 27, 2023, 01:44:00 PMAnd that's where a lot of times at the LOS audibling out of a play and knowing what your hot read is vital for a QB. The coming pressure is out of his control but how a QB adjusts and reacts to it is within his control.
So you're saying Jones should assume he's going to face pressure at all times and constantly be calling audibles?
Do you not think that the abundance of 4-yard catches are the exact outcome your asking for in Jones going to his hot read?
I know you and Trench will take any opportunity to blame Jones for anything and everything, but this one really does take the cake.
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 27, 2023, 03:15:47 PMHas there been a team that has invested more draft capital into "protecting" their QB after being drafted as the Giants have Daniel Jones? They've already invested the 4th, 7th overall picks plus a 2nd rounder into offensive linemen to protect him.
Looking around the league you have Dak who has 3 1st rounders on his line however, 2 of them were drafted years before the Cowboys drafted Dak. Herbert has 2 first rounders on his line drafted after he was taken but Herbert has also put up big time production his first 3 season's in the league. Beyond those two I can't think of another who has had their franchise invest as much into their offensive line in draft capital as the Giants have.
Sadly, the problem wasn't the willingness to spend, the problem was they (multiple GMs now) didn't spend wisely.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on September 27, 2023, 03:48:14 PMSo you're saying Jones should assume he's going to face pressure at all times and constantly be calling audibles?
Do you not think that the abundance of 4-yard catches are the exact outcome your asking for in Jones going to his hot read?
I know you and Trench will take any opportunity to blame Jones for anything and everything, but this one really does take the cake.
Since you mentioned me, I'll just say I rarely if ever see Jones make an audible nor do I see him studying defenses on the iPad as has been pointed out. He has had people open and missed the read - ALOT this year. Skinner and others have pointed it out. These are facts that I wasn't aware of until they showed me the proof. I do wonder at what point a conclusive decision can be made about the guy.
If he plays horribly this week on national tv then it will be a long week. If he has a big game then it will go a long way towards alleviating pressure.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on September 27, 2023, 03:48:14 PMSo you're saying Jones should assume he's going to face pressure at all times and constantly be calling audibles?
Do you not think that the abundance of 4-yard catches are the exact outcome your asking for in Jones going to his hot read?
I know you and Trench will take any opportunity to blame Jones for anything and everything, but this one really does take the cake.
I didn't mention Jones's name because as has been discussed the last week it hasn't been confirmed as to whether Jones has the option to audible at the LOS after breaking the huddle. I can't criticize him for something I have no clue if he has the option of doing. This was just an in general comment for QB's that face that type of pressure.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 03:51:27 PMSadly, the problem wasn't the willingness to spend, the problem was they (multiple GMs now) didn't spend wisely.
At some point the Giants have to get an ROI with these premium picks that could have instead been spent on the other holes on the roster. Giants can't go into another draft spending another premium draft pick on an offensive linemen with the other needs they have.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 12:26:51 PMHere's a pretty good article on just how bad the O-line is.
Giants' offensive line unsurprisingly ranks dead last in PFF's latest rankings
https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-york-giants/giants-offensive-line-unsurprisingly-ranks-dead-last-in-pffs-latest-rankings/
Saw that our WRS were also rated dead last. Where is that cape for DJ!
Quote from: DragonSoul on September 28, 2023, 11:15:52 AMSaw that our WRS were also rated dead last. Where is that cape for DJ!
The O-line being dead last while disappointing was not entirely unsurprising. The receivers being that low is a surprise. I thought the additions of Hyatt and Campbell (and the return of Won'Dale and Hodgins participating in training camp) would yield better results.
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 27, 2023, 03:15:47 PMHas there been a team that has invested more draft capital into "protecting" their QB after being drafted as the Giants have Daniel Jones? They've already invested the 4th, 7th overall picks plus a 2nd rounder into offensive linemen to protect him.
Looking around the league you have Dak who has 3 1st rounders on his line however, 2 of them were drafted years before the Cowboys drafted Dak. Herbert has 2 first rounders on his line drafted after he was taken but Herbert has also put up big time production his first 3 season's in the league. Beyond those two I can't think of another who has had their franchise invest as much into their offensive line in draft capital as the Giants have.
That has to fall on coaching. clearly these guys were talented enough to be drafted so high. and we are getting nothing out of them.