https://x.com/clt_ny/status/1707145760309965233?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Good question. In one respect, going to the playoffs and winning a game, made Schoen's job harder. Some of the moves that were made were short term moves that might not have been long term helpful. We gave up 3 ir 4 draft choices to target certain players and its not clear to me helped build a stronger team although on paper, all looked like good moves. The question is, for example, could one of those picks help solidify the OL.
WR shallow depth?...I think not. That was supposed to be a strong point.
If we backtrack a few months, I think it's fair to say that the majority of people out there expected the Giants to regress a bit this year due to (1) a harder schedule and (2) some mean reversion on the luck front insofar as their winning close games in often fortuitous ways went last year. Right now, it looks like that is what we are seeing a little bit.
If there are new problems, I think the primary issue is that some of the younger players who were either extremely promising as draft picks or who showed signs or flashes of potentially being good in the recent past are very disappointing this year so far. I would apply that to both of Schoen's top two picks in 2022 as well as guys like McKinney.
The Giants are not a very good team as of yet. They have a few good players and a few very good players, but the 53-man roster is not especially talented from top to bottom compared to the rest of the league. That was absolutely the case last year too. I'm not sure this is a new problem though. It's been the reality for a while. If some fans convinced themselves that the Giants were going to be Super Bowl contenders this year, I would say that's more those fans' problem than it is the Giants'. The Giants are in a building phase that is ongoing. This was never going to be an overnight fix. I don't think it's news, myself.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 27, 2023, 08:05:54 PMIf we backtrack a few months, I think it's fair to say that the majority of people out there expected the Giants to regress a bit this year due to (1) a harder schedule and (2) some mean reversion on the luck front insofar as their winning close games in often fortuitous ways went last year. Right now, it looks like that is what we are seeing a little bit.
If there are new problems, I think the primary issue is that some of the younger players who were either extremely promising as draft picks or who showed signs or flashes of potentially being good in the recent past are very disappointing this year so far. I would apply that to both of Schoen's top two picks in 2022 as well as guys like McKinney.
The Giants are not a very good team as of yet. They have a few good players and a few very good players, but the 53-man roster is not especially talented from top to bottom compared to the rest of the league. That was absolutely the case last year too. I'm not sure this is a new problem though. It's been the reality for a while. If some fans convinced themselves that the Giants were going to be Super Bowl contenders this year, I would say that's more those fans' problem than it is the Giants'. The Giants are in a building phase that is ongoing. This was never going to be an overnight fix. I don't think it's news, myself.
Definitely, though I disagree with the poster about the WR's that's a solid group that's deep.
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 27, 2023, 08:11:15 PMDefinitely, though I disagree with the poster about the WR's that's a solid group that's deep.
Agreed. WR depth is not our issue. We cut NFL roster-worthy receivers like Jamison Crowder. We have plenty of competent receivers this year. Depth at this position has been an issue in the past but not this year.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 27, 2023, 07:40:25 PMhttps://x.com/clt_ny/status/1707145760309965233?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Rich: Sorry I just don't see it that way (and I suspect you might actually agree).
This team has done no worse than the vast majority of the football world expected thus far.
It would have been nice to be 2-1 but almost no one thought they would be, so I don't think your issue is pertinent YET. If the Giants lose to Seattle on Monday, then we might delve into it. IMO, Seattle is a team in basically the same situation as the Giants. Both teams are on the "road back" from being not very good, and one of them will win Monday's game. The winner will still be "alive" as a contender while the loser probably will not be, because both teams play in very strong divisions (IMO the NFC Super Bowl representative this year will be the winner of the NFC-East or NFC-West).
Bob
Problem isn't expectations. It's poor performance on the field.
Quote from: T200Brown on September 28, 2023, 07:17:59 AMProblem isn't expectations. It's poor performance on the field.
I agree with this.
I'll never have low expectations, all teams should always aspire to win and succeed to the highest level. Their play simply has not been able to cut it.
fix the OL and........
better pass protection
better passing game
more productive running game
more time of possession [defense can rest]
more points
more wins
it all starts there.
Man ive been saying this was a rebuild even last year, we are just in year 2, and us beating a bad Vikings teams after skidding to end the season changed people's perception as they routinely ignored the Eagles playoff ass whooping.
We are super young with some good and bad pieces but we need to keep moving forward and building an actual team. I don't see any chemistry on this team whatsoever.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on September 28, 2023, 03:49:58 PMMan ive been saying this was a rebuild even last year, we are just in year 2, and us beating a bad Vikings teams after skidding to end the season changed people's perception as they routinely ignored the Eagles playoff ass whooping.
We are super young with some good and bad pieces but we need to keep moving forward and building an actual team. I don't see any chemistry on this team whatsoever.
J: True. The good news is Shoen/Daboll/Kafka/Martindale made the very best "silk purse" possible out of last year's "sow's ear" (making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, for anyone who cares, is a descriptive phrase much older than any of us). I see no reason to believe they won't do a repeat performance.
It may not translate into the same results as last year, but IMO there is (at the present time) no reason to suspect differently. They are the same people. The Eagles showed everyone how to beat the Giants in last year's final game, and now it's up to the powers-that-be to respond and counter.
That process, IMO, begins on Monday night. We've had far more time to prepare for Seattle than they've had to prepare for us.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on September 29, 2023, 05:28:18 AMThe Eagles showed everyone how to beat the Giants in last year's final game, and now it's up to the powers-that-be to respond and counter.
The Giants lost 7 games in the regular season last year 2 to the Eagles. So it's not like going into that playoff game there was a mystery teams had in beating the Giants who were not and still not this unbeatable force.
Quote from: Trench on September 27, 2023, 07:50:24 PMWR shallow depth?...I think not. That was supposed to be a strong point.
theres depth. we just have 5 of the same player.
thats part of it. the other part is lackluster play. yes, jones has many obstacles to overcome regarding the line, but other than 2 quarters this season, he has been wholly uninspiring. he needs to turn it up. lots of qb's deal with bad line play and still make plays. yes, his situation is a bit worse. but at some point, he needs to make plays that breathe life into this team.
the defense needs to buck up and start playing with some passion. we were supposed to have elite run d, and we have been anything but. the missed tackles need to stop.
so yes, expectations are maybe a bit high. but honestly, they should be high. we improved a playoff team roster, daboll won coach of the year last year, and its year 2 in the same offense/defense. things we havent had in a long time.
When is that not the issue? When do we not make it so? We are here to cheer and jeer, praise and blame against the background of our expectations and very little else. How often must we prove it; more often than right now and every day?
It's not a fault, it's our nature. We are defined by our expectations and, for better or worse, more gently and accurately than does a label like fanatic.
Cheers!
Not at all.
The issues are:
Lack of preparedness
Lack of intensity
Abysmal play by the OL causing multiple failures across the offense
Non-existent pass rush
Failure to generate turnovers or make any big plays on defense
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 29, 2023, 07:13:50 AMSo it's not like going into that playoff game there was a mystery teams had in beating the Giants who were not and still not this unbeatable force.
Rambo: I disagree partly with that statement. IMO there WAS a bit of mystery/intrigue. In the playoffs both teams obviously try to use their very best schemes. The Eagles had 18 regular season and playoff games of film to watch before we played them the third time. Under those circumstances IMO it would be "football malpractice" for a team having the Giants on this year's schedule to fail to watch that game. Bob
Bob
For me- my expectations were falsely heightened with all of the glowing camp reports about the offense. The reports of the OL doing better, Waller being a true #1 target, our WR depth coming on strong, DJ looking better and more confident, etc. Before those reports I was expecting a true growth year for all involved (which is how it's looking) rather than the potential to make some noise (still possible...but less likely for sure).
Just goes to show that training camp can be (and always seems to be) deceptive for the fans.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on September 29, 2023, 11:21:26 AMFor me- my expectations were falsely heightened with all of the glowing camp reports about the offense. The reports of the OL doing better, Waller being a true #1 target, our WR depth coming on strong, DJ looking better and more confident, etc. Before those reports I was expecting a true growth year for all involved (which is how it's looking) rather than the potential to make some noise (still possible...but less likely for sure).
Just goes to show that training camp can be (and always seems to be) deceptive for the fans.
Going against this Giants defense with very little pass rush will be making a lot offenses look better then they should.
Add in the tackling issues and it's pretty ugly.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on September 29, 2023, 11:21:26 AMJust goes to show that training camp can be (and always seems to be) deceptive for the fans.
Agreed. This is the last time I've ever going to put any sort of serious stock in the preseason or any of the camp clickbait. All that matters is health. What you see on the field in real games in September doesn't correlate to the camp noise, plus all camp info comes from Giants beat reporters and Giants fans, so there is a natural bias there to always want to be positive. Might as well basically tune out completely in July and August.
Yes,expectations are part of it. Another part is attitude. The attitude of the players. No one plays with the attitude of a LT, Ronnie Lott, Dick Butkus, Reggie White, Jack Lambert, Conrad Dobler. When Leonard Williams gets flagged for making a form tackle on Purdy you know the game has gone to hell. Want to stop the Eagle scrum play. Fine it's a first down, but Hurts comes out of the pile with fingers looking like the legs of a right triangle. Can you imagine the eventual result of the iggles trying that play a few times against the likes of the 85'Bears, 86' Giants, Steel Curtain, Doomsday? Ancient history you say. The human condition hasn't changed for many centuries. Football at it's core is a violent, collision sport. It is really our modern Roman Coliseum. No one plays with a f#$k you attitude. As Deion said years ago when he was doing NFL hilites "he made a business decision". I don't blame the players considering the owners really don't give two cowterds about them. Thank you for providing the space to rant.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 29, 2023, 12:12:39 PMAgreed. This is the last time I've ever going to put any sort of serious stock in the preseason or any of the camp clickbait. All that matters is health. What you see on the field in real games in September doesn't correlate to the camp noise, plus all camp info comes from Giants beat reporters and Giants fans, so there is a natural bias there to always want to be positive. Might as well basically tune out completely in July and August.
DB: I don't think there's reason to ignore camp reports from "homers" because what camp shows is like investing in mutual funds. "Past performance is not guarantee of future results" lol. It's all relative to how you receive the news. I tend to view camp and preseason games as showing what MIGHT happen in a perfect world. A team like the Giants is likely to look worse in real games because there is no scheming, no match-ups etc. during preseason and the Giants are still a work in progress with IMO inferior personnel over all compared to the majority of other teams. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on September 29, 2023, 10:42:33 AMRambo: I disagree partly with that statement. IMO there WAS a bit of mystery/intrigue. In the playoffs both teams obviously try to use their very best schemes. The Eagles had 18 regular season and playoff games of film to watch before we played them the third time. Under those circumstances IMO it would be "football malpractice" for a team having the Giants on this year's schedule to fail to watch that game. Bob
Bob
Not every team has the personnel that the Eagles do to play the Giants that way. Dallas is a team that also beat the Giants twice last season. So I disagree that playoff game provided a blueprint when Dallas had their own that had worked against the Giants twice last season.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 29, 2023, 12:12:39 PMAgreed. This is the last time I've ever going to put any sort of serious stock in the preseason or any of the camp clickbait. All that matters is health. What you see on the field in real games in September doesn't correlate to the camp noise, plus all camp info comes from Giants beat reporters and Giants fans, so there is a natural bias there to always want to be positive. Might as well basically tune out completely in July and August.
Team's tend to play very bland generic schemes in the pre season where getting reps in is more important than actual results. I never put much stock into pre season performances either good or bad. Health and readiness for the regular season are the most important factors for me in the preseason.
My expectations for the offense were never that high, but I've been disappointed in the defense. They've looked completely lost at times, tackling has been terrible and they still don't generate a pass rush pretty much at all. KT has been a big disappointment so far given how good he looked at times last year.
On the offense, they weren't that great last year and I was never sure they'd be that much better this year. I never listen to what's going on in Training Camp. Until you see it in a real game, it doesn't matter. We knew the O-line needed a big jump from Neal (he seems to have regressed) and the WR corps was always more quantity than quality. It's a bunch of NFL caliber guys, but no standout option and Waller was still a 31 year old TE who hadn't played a full year since 2020. In fairness, we've also played two of the best defenses in the league so far, which has probably made them look worse than they really are.
Someone once told me, if you don't expect much you won't be disappointed. Not really a philosophy that I have ever been able to embrace.
This team right now, there are a few things:
1) There was hope/expectation that the OL would improve significantly this year. So far after two games against top 5 (in the NFL, NOT NFC) front 7s, it doesn't look better. The worst part of it is that they will face one of those defenses again and another top 5 front 7 twice (Philly if you are not sure). Maybe those of us who had expected rather than hoped for the OL to be able to hold their own against a top defensive front are a victim or our expectations
2) The defense has been worse than most hoped/expected. As mentioned above, its a young group. I have been disappointed by the tackling, but I was expecting a certain amount of mental mistakes. The IDL is still solid, but the groups around them seem to be inconsistent at best. For me the key is whether the rookie CBs pan out. If they do, there is a lot of potential with a guy like Dex up front. And like the OL, this D faced two really solid offenses with good OLs in 2 of three outings. And again they will also face one of them again and Philly with the best OL in the NFL twice.
On the topic of defense I also wonder if the aggressive style needs to be reigned in some. I get wanting to blitz on 3rd and 15 or 3rd and 13. Of course when you have been blitzing all game and the offense expects it, they will run plays that will be short, quick and give them the opportunity to make one guy miss to get a 1st down. Backing out of a blitz and playing zone here or there to create some element of surprise probably wouldn't hurt.
3) Getting behind every game. Some of this goes back to what I just mentioned about the aggressive defensive style. But the bigger issue IMO here is scoring a total of 6 first half points in 6 quarters of first half play. I don't think my expectations are the issue here. I don't think it's out of line to expect a touchdown or two in the first half of the first 3 games of the season. Not sure what it is about this team, but they look completely overwhelmed in the 1st half of games. How are the game plans that poor? Or how are they being executed that poorly?
My issue is: NO Confidence. No Dogs on the team. And lastly guys wanting to get paid, but not producing on the field.
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 27, 2023, 08:11:15 PMDefinitely, though I disagree with the poster about the WR's that's a solid group that's deep.
Agree with both you guys with a couple of additional points. First, I think there was too much made of our draft and how we'd get so much contribution from them in 2023.
Second, I think almost all of projected some players as developing upward so they'd be rising stars in 2023. Guys like Neal and Thibs. Instead we are seeing regression.
If you add up the players from my first and second above, we probably thought we had 10 good players out of them and that has not transpired. Hence a team with less talent than we thought.
Quote from: Rambo89 on September 29, 2023, 12:26:07 PMNot every team has the personnel that the Eagles do to play the Giants that way.
Rambo: IMO that's a very astute observation. But with enough time to prepare, you can execute the "basics" of what a certain team did against the Giants even though the talent on your team might be less at some positions than the team you're copying. Nevertheless, you're right, and that's one reason why NFL head coaches get paid so much money. Decisions like that require in-depth knowledge of each of your own players and making a reasoned determination about what is possible... and what is asking too much. Bob
You folks don't seem to get it, or maybe you don't want to because you think having expectations is somehow a bad thing when it is actually ineluctable, the very essence of what it means to be a fan.
It is a problem only if we choose to make it one which can happen when our expectations aren't met when after 3 games, it becomes a question of why haven't they?
Cheers!
Second year of the same system and coaches, plus expected improvements particularly on offense, I expect at least same success as last year, 9 wins.
I expect to win back my lost wagers from two years ago.. or may be that is why they are losing?! 🤔
Lets look at the bright side the Giants have lost to the same teams they would have lost to last year. Beat the team they would have beat last year. Last year of their 7 losses 4 came against Eagle and Cowboys which looks like they will repeat this year unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat.
I don't think expectations is the reason they are not doing better in defense and offense. It's effort and a mentally tough attitude. Their offensive line is flat out soft they aren't playing with any nastiness they aren't driving their guy into the ground and sucking their will out of the opposition.
As for the defense they are soft. They don't play with an edge. Also they know Wink is going to blitz all the opposing team has to do is get rid of the ball fast as possible and get it into their play makers hands. The rest the Giant defense will assist by not tackling. They don't hit with aggressiveness with the intent of dislodging the football.
The team flat out is lacking the dawg mentality and they have no swag. The opponents are imposing their will on the Giants. Won't win many games with that. It's all effort.
Quote from: Giantleap56 on September 30, 2023, 11:23:23 AMLets look at the bright side the Giants have lost to the same teams they would have lost to last year.
Excellent point.
If I told you back in August that the Giants would be 2-2 coming out of week four, would you really have been shocked and devastated by that?
Through four games we will have played two of the best teams in football, plus a third team that beat us last year and made the playoffs. Not to mention we will have gotten our road Thursday night game out of the way. I'm sorry but if you're 2-2 coming out of that start, that's not the end of the world.
That's why winning on Monday is so damn important. If we can get that done, we're right where we were supposed to be.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 30, 2023, 12:19:03 PMExcellent point.
If I told you back in August that the Giants would be 2-2 coming out of week four, would you really have been shocked and devastated by that?
Through four games we will have played two of the best teams in football, plus a third team that beat us last year and made the playoffs. Not to mention we will have gotten our road Thursday night game out of the way. I'm sorry but if you're 2-2 coming out of that start, that's not the end of the world.
That's why winning on Monday is so damn important. If we can get that done, we're right where we were supposed to be.
If you isolate the numbers of wins and losses and also assume we'll win the 4th game, you make sense; however, the way they have played so far makes me really concerned about the 4th game and the fifth and the sixth games against better teams; so based on performance so far, I see the possibility of 1-3 or even 1-5 much higher than a 2-2.
Of course my heart is hoping that you are right.. that somehow the O line will turn it around, the play calling will be better and the defense decides to play with balls and hit hard.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 30, 2023, 12:19:03 PMExcellent point.
If I told you back in August that the Giants would be 2-2 coming out of week four, would you really have been shocked and devastated by that?
Through four games we will have played two of the best teams in football, plus a third team that beat us last year and made the playoffs. Not to mention we will have gotten our road Thursday night game out of the way. I'm sorry but if you're 2-2 coming out of that start, that's not the end of the world.
That's why winning on Monday is so damn important. If we can get that done, we're right where we were supposed to be.
I can't speak for everyone but for me the non-competitive nature of those losses is the issue.
I guess I thought they would fair a little better than a combined score of 70-12 in those games. I didn't expect a 4-0 start or even 3-1, but I thought maybe they would score more than 6 points in the 1st half of those 1st 3 games.
I think just using the record as a barometer/expectation is very different than what you saw on the field.
I get that a 1 point loss counts the same as a 40 point loss and those 1 point losses can even sting more for the fans and players. It's just tough to stomach that after what most thought was a good offseason, 2 of 3 games thus far have looked like a Sun Belt team visiting Georgia or Bama.
As you mentioned if the team gets to 2-2, I would have taken it and it's still early in the season and improvements can be made.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 01, 2023, 06:56:05 AMI can't speak for everyone but for me the non-competitive nature of those losses is the issue.
I guess I thought they would fair a little better than a combined score of 70-12 in those games. I didn't expect a 4-0 start or even 3-1, but I thought maybe they would score more than 6 points in the 1st half of those 1st 3 games.
I think just using the record as a barometer/expectation is very different than what you saw on the field.
I get that a 1 point loss counts the same as a 40 point loss and those 1 point losses can even sting more for the fans and players. It's just tough to stomach that after what most thought was a good offseason, 2 of 3 games thus far have looked like a Sun Belt team visiting Georgia or Bama.
As you mentioned if the team gets to 2-2, I would have taken it and it's still early in the season and improvements can be made.
I get that Jack, and it's not unfair, but just think for a moment about the other side of your argument. The other side of your argument is that "moral victories" matter and are worth feeling good about. We had a lot of that kind of talk here during and after the 2020 season, and I will raise my hand and admit that I bought into it to a considerable degree. Turns out it meant nothing, as 2021 was an unmitigated disaster.
Also the only game that was truly "non-competitive" this year was week one, which was obviously awful on every level. Week two we won, and week three, while I get that it was very clear that the 9ers were the much better team, we were playing on the road on short rest with a very shorthanded group against probably the best team in football. And say what you want, but the fact is it was a one-score game in the fourth quarter. To me, "non-competitive" means it's over by halftime or at least by midway through the third quarter. That wasn't the case in that game. Obviously they were much better, but I don't see how a game that was a one score margin in the fourth quarter can be termed non-competitive.
So while I get what you're saying, we have only played three games so far, and I would say your description only really applies to one of the games.
If the Giants win tomorrow night, to me they are still alive, and then who knows what happens after that. Maybe the Fish win an emotional game today on the road against Buffalo and they're flat for our game. Maybe Tua gets concussed and we'll be going up against Mike White instead. Who knows? I'm just focused on tomorrow. I'm not worrying about how we looked 3 weeks ago against Dallas, and I'm not worrying about the schedule after week four. It's just about tomorrow for me, and I hope the team has the same mentality.