Of waiting for this team to consistently play at full strength so that they can actually develop and improve?
Don't get me wrong, I understand that injuries are part of the game and in the past several years it's become more prevalent based on the size and speed of players today.
But can we catch a little bit of a break and have our key contributors spared?!
Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest.
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Teams are missing starters all around the league. To have literally all 22 starters healthy is not the base case around the league. Good teams can weather injuries by having depth on their roster.
And I would say most teams' head trainer isn't a guy who cut his teeth as a trainer in the 1970s.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 30, 2023, 12:32:45 PMTeams are missing starters all around the league. To have literally all 22 starters healthy is not the base case around the league. Good teams can weather injuries by having depth on their roster.
And I would say most teams' head trainer isn't a guy who cut his teeth as a trainer in the 1970s.
I didn't say starters and I'm clear that everyone has injuries, I was venting about losing "key contributors"
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on September 30, 2023, 12:35:35 PMI didn't say starters and I'm clear that everyone has injuries, I was venting about losing "key contributors"
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Fair enough, I understand it's frustrating. Look at teams like the Jets and Browns though.
Also Barkley always gets injured. I appreciate he made it through last year unscathed, but that is the exception not the norm. Anyone who just assumes he's going to play a full 17 game season with no issues is ignoring the obvious trend. And the fact that we're so dependent on one single RB rather than having a committee like smart teams do is on us. It's not bad luck. It's just plain bad roster-building.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 30, 2023, 12:32:45 PMTeams are missing starters all around the league. To have literally all 22 starters healthy is not the base case around the league. Good teams can weather injuries by having depth on their roster.
And I would say most teams' head trainer isn't a guy who cut his teeth as a trainer in the 1970s.
Pretty much most teams are missing contributors throughout the season. It can't be an excuse or the reasons the Giants don't win.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on September 30, 2023, 12:28:32 PMOf waiting for this team to consistently play at full strength so that they can actually develop and improve?
Don't get me wrong, I understand that injuries are part of the game and in the past several years it's become more prevalent based on the size and speed of players today.
But can we catch a little bit of a break and have our key contributors spared?!
Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest.
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Until the Giants are willing to transform from a mom and pop operation to one of accountability, I don't see things changing.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on September 30, 2023, 12:28:32 PMOf waiting for this team to consistently play at full strength so that they can actually develop and improve?
Don't get me wrong, I understand that injuries are part of the game and in the past several years it's become more prevalent based on the size and speed of players today.
But can we catch a little bit of a break and have our key contributors spared?!
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Im guessing here but it seems the Strength Coach is sub-par and does not empasize flexing and stretching
Parcells brought in Johnny Parker who had studied in the Soviet Union how to build both srenght and flexibility
We need another Johnny Parker, and perhaps a change of playing surface....
Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest.
Im guessing here but it seems the Strength Coach is sub-par and does not empasize flexing and stretching
Parcells brought in Johnny Parker who had studied in the Soviet Union how to build both srenght and flexibility
We need another Johnny Parker, and perhaps a change of playing surface....
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 30, 2023, 12:48:01 PMAlso Barkley always gets injured. I appreciate he made it through last year unscathed, but that is the exception not the norm. Anyone who just assumes he's going to play a full 17 game season with no issues is ignoring the obvious trend. And the fact that we're so dependent on one single RB rather than having a committee like smart teams do is on us. It's not bad luck. It's just plain bad roster-building.
Completely agree. Cannot sign him to a large, multi-year contract...utter nail in the coffin for Schoen and Daboll.
When is the trade deadline? At what record (if he's healthy), do you consider parting ways to receive some sort of equity for him to a contending team?
I would think it's a definite possibility barring his often-injured status and the date of the trade deadline
Quote from: Topshelf21 on September 30, 2023, 04:14:52 PMCompletely agree. Cannot sign him to a large, multi-year contract...utter nail in the coffin for Schoen and Daboll.
When is the trade deadline? At what record (if he's healthy), do you consider parting ways to receive some sort of equity for him to a contending team?
I would think it's a definite possibility barring his often-injured status and the date of the trade deadline
I'd listen regardless of the record.
On another Tread a few weeks ago, I called Barkley injury prone. There was some strong push back. The majority of the pushback was he's unlucky, not injury prone, it's the position he plays, he's not injury prone, and so forth.
And all you Barkley fans that want to hang your hat on him playing all 17 games last season, I recall a nagging shoulder injury that limited him for four or five games (?).
Had GM JS caved in and given Barkley that long term deal he was yapping about, I suspect there would have been a lynch mob awaiting as he left the building.
As for our bulletproof Trainer Rohnnie Barnes, Rich and myself have spoken about this long in the tooth guy many times. He's a real problem for us, and has been since forever. If I'm not mistaken, our former Strength and Conditioning Coach was Wellman. He left us to return to his alma matre. What a loss that was for us. His mantra was, training each leg individually. Hence, usually, a leg injury occurs when one leg is planted, while the other leg is non-weight bearing.
He also cross-trained playing other positions and utilized balance regimens. He would arrive every day at five a.m.
Yes Andrew , I am tired as well.
Injuries happen, but some teams look for less injury prone players than the Giants seem to. Also, lack of preparation and quality depth, specially at Oline is the real problem.
Injuries are most definitely an excuse for why a team can't win. This notion "every team has them" is just a cliche saying that fans use to boost an opinion.
The jets season is over due to injuries.
The ravens last two season ended because of injuries.
How did the Rams do last year with all their injuries?
When your two best players on offense are out - you are going to struggle and probably not look good. It's the nature of the beast.
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 07:50:17 AMInjuries are most definitely an excuse for why a team can't win. This notion "every team has them" is just a cliche saying that fans use to boost an opinion.
The jets season is over due to injuries.
The ravens last two season ended because of injuries.
How did the Rams do last year with all their injuries?
When your two best players on offense are out - you are going to struggle and probably not look good. It's the nature of the beast.
There's a difference between losing a key RB, WR, pass rusher, corner back, etc. and missing a QB because usually the drop off from Starter to Back Up is the greatest at QB.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 01, 2023, 08:47:39 AMThere's a difference between losing a key RB, WR, pass rusher, corner back, etc. and missing a QB because usually the drop off from Starter to Back Up is the greatest at QB.
So when a team loses its two best players on offense - we should ignore it as factors.
I mean come on. We are being ridiculous now. When you have very little talent to begin with and lose two great players - the offense is going to suffer.
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 08:57:25 AMSo when a team loses its two best players on offense - we should ignore it as factors.
I mean come on. We are being ridiculous now. When you have very little talent to begin with and lose two great players - the offense is going to suffer.
Point is it's not a factor that most teams don't deal with throughout the season. Losing a starting QB for an extended period of time is more devastating than a Left Tackle and RB. That's not to downplay it being a loss but it's not something that ends the season or at least it shouldn't.
Both Thomas and Barkley injuries have nothing to do with the strength coach. Overall we are in pretty good shape injury wise. Time for Wink's D to keep us in the game.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 01, 2023, 09:00:09 AMPoint is it's not a factor that most teams don't deal with throughout the season. Losing a starting QB for an extended period of time is more devastating than a Left Tackle and RB. That's not to downplay it being a loss but it's not something that ends the season or at least it shouldn't.
Yes it does. When you lose great players for extended time - teams are affected. How about when the chiefs lost two OL prior to the SB against TB - how did the chiefs offense look?
QB get all the notoriety because of the position - but when units get decimated it has a huge impact.
I think some are just looking for reason to blame Jones if the offense struggles again with bottom of the league talent surrounding him.
The NFL is the survival of the fittest. End of story. Everyone deals with it.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on September 30, 2023, 12:28:32 PMOf waiting for this team to consistently play at full strength so that they can actually develop and improve?
Don't get me wrong, I understand that injuries are part of the game and in the past several years it's become more prevalent based on the size and speed of players today.
But can we catch a little bit of a break and have our key contributors spared?!
Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest.
Andrew: I'm right there with you but the worst part is the inevitable injuries are to our best players.
Let's say we currently have three of the top 100 players in the NFL. That would be about the average number.
We play 2 games and we're down TWO of best three. That makes it real tough for a team to continue to rise.
Bob
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 07:50:17 AMInjuries are most definitely an excuse for why a team can't win. This notion "every team has them" is just a cliche saying that fans use to boost an opinion.
It's not a cliche - it's a flat out fact. You clearly don't look at injury reports around the league every week. If you do, then you're either consciously or unconsciously blocking out reality. Just about every team in the league is dealing with, or has had to deal with, multiple injuries to key players on their team at the same time. The Giants are not unique in this regard. To suggest that we are snake-bit because we have two players out and everyone else is better off is myopic and simply misinformed.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 01, 2023, 09:51:40 AMIt's not a cliche - it's a flat out fact. You clearly don't look at injury reports around the league every week. If you do, then you're either consciously or unconsciously blocking out reality. Just about every team in the league is dealing with, or has had to deal with, multiple injuries to key players on their team at the same time. The Giants are not unique in this regard. To suggest that we are snake-bit because we have two players out and everyone else is better off is myopic and simply misinformed.
So which team consistently win at a high level with injuries to their best players?
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 11:31:14 AMSo which team consistently win at a high level with injuries to their best players?
Eagles won a Super Bowl with a backup QB recently. The Pats beat the Falcons in a Super Bowl without first ballot Hall of Fame TE Rob Gronkowski. I don't know how much more "high level" it gets than winning super bowls. And I don't know how much more important injuries can get than injuries like those.
And those are just two quick examples that popped into my mind without spending more than a few seconds thinking about it. Am I saying injuries don't matter? Of course I'm not saying that. I never said any such thing. My point is just that to act like the Giants are the only team that has to deal with them or that other teams that have them never win is flat out false. I mean obviously believe whatever you want, but the facts on the ground tell a different story.
Are we dealing with injuries to key players right now? Yes. Does it matter? Yes. Do most other teams go through the same thing all the time? Yes. Do some still win anyway? Yes.
When we have a SB contending team where we can afford to lose our two best players - come talk to me.
When you have a below average team and lose your two best players - the impact is much greater.
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 11:48:00 AMWhen we have a SB contending team where we can afford to lose our two best players - come talk to me.
When you have a below average team and lose your two best players - the impact is much greater.
Ok, now this post I do agree with. Good teams are built to be able to manage injuries and still be competitive in spite of them. Bad teams can't deal with them. I agree there. But the part you're leaving out is that when you're a bad team, you're bad whether you're 100% healthy or only 90% healthy.
So in the end it doesn't make that much of a difference, unless you are up at night worrying about whether we're going to be a 7-10 team or a 5-12 team.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on September 30, 2023, 12:28:32 PMOf waiting for this team to consistently play at full strength so that they can actually develop and improve?
Don't get me wrong, I understand that injuries are part of the game and in the past several years it's become more prevalent based on the size and speed of players today.
But can we catch a little bit of a break and have our key contributors spared?!
Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I hear you Andrew, but you are not singing to just the choir, we all feel your pain. Every time play is stopped for an injury and I see it is a Giant, I say a quick prayer it isn't one of the 'main' guys. No one wants to see any player hurt, but if there has to be one, maybe it could be some guy who rarely sees the field instead of an 'impact' guy. This team is so devoid of those 'impact' players, to lose any of them really hurts, and this has been our pattern for way too long.
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 09:04:29 AMYes it does. When you lose great players for extended time - teams are affected. How about when the chiefs lost two OL prior to the SB against TB - how did the chiefs offense look?
QB get all the notoriety because of the position - but when units get decimated it has a huge impact.
I think some are just looking for reason to blame Jones if the offense struggles again with bottom of the league talent surrounding him.
The Chargers have been playing without Ekeler who is their best play maker it hasn't stopped Herbert from being productive and that's with a bad offensive line. If Jones and the offense need everything around him to be perfect then he's not the guy. The Giants need him to step up in these situations. Though I don't think he's the guy long term there is no reason why IMO with his ability that he shouldn't be able to be productive tomorrow night. There is still enough around him to get the job done.
No team is a deep playoff team unless it has tremendous depth. None. Giants not only dont have enough starting talent but they are woeful at depth.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 01, 2023, 12:30:27 PMThe Chargers have been playing without Ekeler who is their best play maker it hasn't stopped Herbert from being productive and that's with a bad offensive line. If Jones and the offense need everything around him to be perfect then he's not the guy. The Giants need him to step up in these situations. Though I don't think he's the guy long term there is no reason why IMO with his ability that he shouldn't be able to be productive tomorrow night. There is still enough around him to get the job done.
Chargers have great weapons that blow ours away. It's not even close.
You really overrated our skilled players. And last time I checked the chargers have 1 win.
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 01:58:51 PMChargers have great weapons that blow ours away. It's not even close.
You really overrated our skilled players. And last time I checked the chargers have 1 win.
Yet their QB's numbers blow away Jones's numbers. Difference between an average QB and an elite one. Watch Herbert play and tell me whether you think Jones is as good as he is.
Quote from: JT39 on October 01, 2023, 01:58:51 PMChargers have great weapons that blow ours away. It's not even close.
You really overrated our skilled players. And last time I checked the chargers have 1 win.
You continue to move the goal post; first, it was NO team/QB could be successful without thier star offensive players. When you were proven incorrect, you simply changed the narrative....
So the argument of showing me I was wrong by saying teams who lose their best players (plural) and still win consistently is very hard and I was showed a singular player who missed two games for a team who doesn't win consistently??
I am bowing out. We all have different opinions and at this point no one's minds are being changed.
After watching Washington/Philly game. Hate to say it but Giants can't compete with either one.
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Quote from: Woody on October 01, 2023, 04:20:07 PMAfter watching Washington/Philly game. Hate to say it but Giants can't compete with either one.
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Sam Howell is legit. To drive that team down the field for a Game tying TD against that Eagles team was impressive.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 01, 2023, 04:21:46 PMSam Howell is legit. To drive that team down the field for a Game tying TD against that Eagles team was impressive.
With a terrible oline too.
Agreed - very impressive by Howell. He has been up and down to this point but did great today. He joins Joshua Dobbs, CJ Stroud, and Jordan Love as young, unproven QBs with less than stellar surroundings who have been having some noteworthy success this season in their first years as starters. Impressive stuff for sure.