I can't remember a season that has been more disappointing than this one. I mean there certainly have been plenty of seasons that have been as bad as this one (in just the past decade), but few that started with such optimism.
So, when I look at a team the 3 most important positions that are critical to team's success would be:
1) GM- I would say this is TBD. I think Joe has done some good, and I think he has made some mistakes. It seems like he is at least in touch with modern NFL thinking, and I think his people skills and emotional IQ are high, which usually leads to success.
2) Head Coach- This is another TBD. I think there are things Dabs has done which have been good. Year one, hiring Wink, his process for hiring coaches. His relationship with players seems strong. Of course, this is balanced out with how things have gone in year two. It's hard to say where things will end up with Dabs. Will, as Mara says, he ends up as Bono or Bozo?
3) Franchise Quarterback- It's sort of funny; yesterday's game could have been used as an, "I told you so game" for DJ's critics. Yet, the neck injury DJ suffered seems to render the whole, "Is DJ good enough to be a franchise QB?" moot. At this point, it seems DJ's neck is as weak as Tyrod's ribs. Neither the starter nor the backup seems to have a body that can hold up to the rigors of the NFL, made worse by coaching/GM malpractice in terms of the offensive line. So, all signs point to the Giants not having their franchise QB.
Speculation- Maybe another season ruined by injury will give Joe Schoen the ammunition he needs to convince the Maras to "retire" Ronnie Barnes. That would be a major victory for this franchise, should that happen.
Talent Levels- This is not a very talented team. They have some players to build around (although some have injury histories):
1) Andrew Thomas (injury)
2) Dex
3) KT
4) Banks and Hawkins and Flott
5) Okereka and McFaddin
6) Hyatt
Not exactly a stocked cupboard. The Giants will have some cap space to work with next season, but as of now, they don't even have all their original draft picks. I do suspect the team could trade Leo and Adoree to boost their pick count. They should double back on their word and trade Saquon as well.
After last offseason, I was feeling optimistic about the Giants, their immediate prospect, and their longer-term prospects. Now I see a team that is once again spinning its wheels. My hope is that, much like my misplaced optimism, I am wrong about my negative views of the team's prospects.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 09:44:27 AMI3) Franchise Quarterback- It's sort of funny; yesterday's game could have been used as an, "I told you so game" for DJ's critics. Yet, the neck injury DJ Talent This is not a very talented team. They have some players to build around (although some have injury histories):
1) Andrew Thomas (injury)
2) Dex
3) KT
4) Banks and Hawkins and Flott
5) Okereka and McFaddin
6) Hyatt
Rich: IMO Barkley's going nowhere unless someone TRULY AND SIGNIFICANTLY overpays (as a free agent or via draft picks to Giants). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 09:47:37 AMRich: IMO Barkley's going nowhere unless someone overpays (as a free agent or via draft picks to Giants). Bob
The Ravens could be a real good landing spot for Barkley, as the addition of a RB like Barkley could make them a true SB contender.
Barkley is a stud. A great running back. A great Giant. But if offered a third round pick, I would trade him. It's time to make those very hard sacrifices.
Quote from: katkavage on October 30, 2023, 09:52:14 AMBarkley is a stud. A great running back. A great Giant. But if offered a third round pick, I would trade him. It's time to make those very hard sacrifices.
I think Barkley WAS a stud. That one long run where he was tackled from behind drove home to me how Barkley is not the same RB that Gettleman bragged, "was touched by the hand of God". He's a tick slower, and those long runs for TDs are now just the long run we saw yesterday.
They need cap space to sign a QB and a kicker. ASAP. The Cap was badly managed. How are they going to get through the rest of the season when more injuries start mounting up?
Next season they need to support both Lines because Leo and Golinsky are gone.
Barkley is clearly not fully healed and put up a Herculean effort yesterday and was their only weapon. He may be on the wrong side of the market but he's a warrior you want on your side.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 09:58:45 AMI think Barkley was a stud. That one long run where he was tackled from behind drove home to me how Barkley is not the same RB that Gettleman bragged, "was touched by the hand of God". He's a tick slower, and those long runs for TDs are now just the long run we saw yesterday.
Couldn't agree more. The gap between what Barkley was in 2018 and what he is now is very substantial and very obvious. Anyone who can't acknowledge that is seeing what they want to see. Plus he gets hurt all the time. It's time to move on. I know they won't trade him before the deadline, but they'd be very foolish to sign him long term or even pay the $12mm tag cost on him next year. It's simply not worth it when there are good RBs available in every draft (well past the first round).
I mean even my wife (who has limited at best knowledge of the sport) immediately said "look how easily that defender caught up with Barkley in the open field there. If this were his rookie year that's a TD."
The point being, it is pretty obvious, even to someone who is not as observant of a fan as most here are. To be committing top 10 RB in the league money to him as a 27 year old who gets hurt all the time would be insane. And quite frankly I don't get why they are insisting on not trading him if a good offer comes their way. At 2-6 what exactly is the point?
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 10:06:45 AMBarkley is clearly not fully healed and put up a Herculean effort yesterday and was their only weapon. He may be on the wrong side of the market but he's a warrior you want on your side.
Ed: Just wanted to repeat this so it won't be missed. He is a giant in every sense of the word, IMO. Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 09:44:27 AMI can't remember a season that has been more disappointing than this one. I mean there certainly have been plenty of seasons that have been as bad as this one (in just the past decade), but few that started with such optimism.
So, when I look at a team the 3 most important positions that are critical to team's success would be:
1) GM- I would say this is TBD. I think Joe has done some good, and I think he has made some mistakes. It seems like he is at least in touch with modern NFL thinking, and I think his people skills and emotional IQ are high, which usually leads to success.
2) Head Coach- This is another TBD. I think there are things Dabs has done which have been good. Year one, hiring Wink, his process for hiring coaches. His relationship with players seems strong. Of course, this is balanced out with how things have gone in year two. It's hard to say where things will end up with Dabs. Will, as Mara says, he ends up as Bono or Bozo?
3) Franchise Quarterback- It's sort of funny; yesterday's game could have been used as an, "I told you so game" for DJ's critics. Yet, the neck injury DJ suffered seems to render the whole, "Is DJ good enough to be a franchise QB?" moot. At this point, it seems DJ's neck is as weak as Tyrod's ribs. Neither the starter nor the backup seems to have a body that can hold up to the rigors of the NFL, made worse by coaching/GM malpractice in terms of the offensive line. So, all signs point to the Giants not having their franchise QB.
Speculation- Maybe another season ruined by injury will give Joe Schoen the ammunition he needs to convince the Maras to "retire" Ronnie Barnes. That would be a major victory for this franchise, should that happen.
Talent Levels- This is not a very talented team. They have some players to build around (although some have injury histories):
1) Andrew Thomas (injury)
2) Dex
3) KT
4) Banks and Hawkins and Flott
5) Okereka and McFaddin
6) Hyatt
Not exactly a stocked cupboard. The Giants will have some cap space to work with next season, but as of now, they don't even have all their original draft picks. I do suspect the team could trade Leo and Adoree to boost their pick count. They should double back on their word and trade Saquon as well.
After last offseason, I was feeling optimistic about the Giants, their immediate prospect, and their longer-term prospects. Now I see a team that is once again spinning its wheels. My hope is that, much like my misplaced optimism, I am wrong about my negative views of the team's prospects.
Rich - that was a very well written post. Those are the key people to focus on.
I believe Schoen has more wiggle room at this point than Dabs does. The OL is such a disaster that an OL coaching change has to be the obvious first move. If he fails to make a change, it may ultimately sink him especially if they draft another QB who can't be protected. Some OL coaches can make a unit out of a bunch of nobodies. Giants have invested in players. Failure seems to be in coaching.
My other observation of your post ia your list of Giants foundational players and how few players it is. This is a huge problem. I had expected Neal to be on this list but he has been a huge disappointment. How about WanDale? Is he just a slightly more athletic twitchy Sheppard but not a true difference maker?
One player I'd add to your list not as a star yet but as an ascending player is JMS. Think he will be ok.
Like you, I cannot remember another year in which my expectations were so much higher than what they have achieved this year. I expected a worse record but to be blown out and shut out by Dallas and an inability to score TDs like we have witnessed.
Yikes!
Last season was a rebuilding year, they could have finished with 4 wins and drafted a QB. The worst thing to happen happened - they made the playoffs and DJ wasn't awful. But it was all an illusion.
The biggest mistake Schoen made was the DJ contract. I don't know how much of it is on Schoen and how much it was Mara meddling, but they should have signed a stop gap and drafted a QB or signed Geno Smith while planning for the QB of the future.
It's not that this season is so bad, it's that everything went right last season and everything went wrong this season. This is a regression to the mean
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Given that Taylor may not take another snap for Our Heroes, and DJ is at best it would seem, a "waiting to happen", and DeVito was placed atop the dung heap yesterday, a cap-strapped Schoen will have to find takers for Barkley or several others of lesser value.
Yeah, they need a punter but it's signing a 9 game QB that's the issue. And who might it be?
Wentz, Foles, Newton, (Matt) Barkley...Kaepernick?
Ugh!
Quote from: Painter on October 30, 2023, 11:18:04 AMGiven that Taylor may not take another snap for Our Heroes, and DJ is at best it would seem, a "waiting to happen", and DeVito was placed atop the dung heap yesterday, a cap-strapped Schoen will have to find takers for Barkley or several others of lesser value.
Yeah, they need a punter but it's signing a 9 game QB that's the issue. And who might it be?
Wentz, Foles, Newton, Barkley...Kaepernick?
Ugh!
Get TB12 out of retirement. =)) =)) =))
Quote from: Painter on October 30, 2023, 11:18:04 AMGiven that Taylor may not take another snap for Our Heroes, and DJ is at best it would seem, a "waiting to happen", and DeVito was placed atop the dung heap yesterday, a cap-strapped Schoen will have to find takers for Barkley or several others of lesser value.
Yeah, they need a punter but it's signing a 9 game QB that's the issue. And who might it be?
Wentz, Foles, Newton, (Matt) Barkley...Kaepernick?
Ugh!
Larry: Maybe they can sign Kafka...
I don't see this as very disappointing at all to be honest. I'm disappointed that they got blown out so badly by the Cowboys and Seahawks but it's not like I was expecting double digit wins this year. They won a bunch of flukey games and this year they're losing. Last year they'd have beaten the Bills and Jets and we'd be looking at a team that's in playoff position even though they're not very good.
Losing to the Jets, which hopefully initiates a fire sale, is probably the best thing that could have happened to them. The manner in which they lost was stupid...but the loss itself was probably necessary.
Quote from: katkavage on October 30, 2023, 09:52:14 AMBarkley is a stud. A great running back. A great Giant. But if offered a third round pick, I would trade him. It's time to make those very hard sacrifices.
have to agree. we might be truly unwatchable for the rest of the year if it happens. but theres also no benefit of keeping him the route we are going. its another lost season.
IMO, let this season play out and if they are going to make decisions on their team let it be this off season. I think trying to salvage a wasted season is not the way to go. Make do with what you have and maybe they can find a few players that they want to keep besides the list Rich made.
Another point if they are going to change the existing contracts it would be a mistake, who knows how that would affect upcoming seasons.
Quote from: beaugestus on October 30, 2023, 02:12:46 PMIMO, let this season play out and if they are going to make decisions on their team let it be this off season. I think trying to salvage a wasted season is not the way to go. Make do with what you have and maybe they can find a few players that they want to keep besides the list Rich made.
Another point if they are going to change the existing contracts it would be a mistake, who knows how that would affect upcoming seasons.
John: Totally agree.
IMO way too soon to worry/speculate/chew on certain issues like the draft, trade after the season ends, etc.
A lot can happen between now and then (to all 32 teams).
Bob