Big Blue Huddle

That Patriots game was won because of Belichick's arrogance.  He saw the Giants were succeeding and rather than alter or make adjustments to their plan, he just kept doing the same thing believing his team was so superior that they would still win anyway.

Quote from: T200Brown on September 28, 2023, 09:20:34 AMAn effective pass rush can neutralize even the greatest QBs. The big difference between elite and average QBs is that they still find ways to be successful, even if it doesn't equate to a win. They don't fold under the pressure.

This is exactly how I feel.  It's not that pressure doesn't impact a QB but rather that it isn't the reason why a QB isn't great on a consistent basis.

https://twitter.com/danschneiernfl/status/1707122089449197956?s=61

A great example of an elite QB reading at the LOS of what is coming and making a play against a great amount of pressure.

Quote from: Rambo89 on September 28, 2023, 10:32:56 AMhttps://twitter.com/danschneiernfl/status/1707122089449197956?s=61

A great example of an elite QB reading at the LOS of what is coming and making a play against a great amount of pressure.

Rambo: Schneier is right, but..... so far Jones and Herbert are both 1-2.

IMO Jones' opponents (as a whole) in his first three games were slightly better teams than Herbert's opponents.

For a direct comparison, let's see how Herbert faces against the Cowboys in two weeks.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on September 28, 2023, 11:56:48 AMRambo: Schneier is right, but..... so far Jones and Herbert are both 1-2.

IMO Jones' opponents (as a whole) in his first three games were slightly better teams than Herbert's opponents.

For a direct comparison, let's see how Herbert faces against the Cowboys in two weeks.

Bob

A cowboys team without their best CB might be winnable for them.

Quote from: T200Brown on September 28, 2023, 09:20:34 AM@Rambo and @MightyGiants  - I think you both are right. Now you're just arguing the minutiae of who is "more right" to win the point.

An effective pass rush can neutralize even the greatest QBs. The big difference between elite and average QBs is that they still find ways to be successful, even if it doesn't equate to a win. They don't fold under the pressure.

Tim,

I sort of agree with your assertion in bold.  I view it as this:  If there is roughly equal support, an elite QB will perform significantly better than an average one.  In terms of support though, I think the extremes (either elite-level support or really poor support) can, to a significant degree, neutralize the talent gap between QBs substancially.

Quote from: Bob In PA on September 28, 2023, 11:56:48 AMRambo: Schneier is right, but..... so far Jones and Herbert are both 1-2.

IMO Jones' opponents (as a whole) in his first three games were slightly better teams than Herbert's opponents.

For a direct comparison, let's see how Herbert faces against the Cowboys in two weeks.

Bob

Just looking at their career numbers it's not even close as to the level Herbert is at compared to Jones.  There's a large enough sample size where we can do a fair comparison.

Herbert's team has the same record. He's played much better than Jones. Chargers defense has blown games they should have won easily. There is not a GM in football who would rather have Jones than Herbert.

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on September 28, 2023, 12:59:53 PMHerbert's team has the same record. He's played much better than Jones. Chargers defense has blown games they should have won easily. There is not a GM in football who would rather have Jones than Herbert.

At this point in time, it's hard to argue that Herbert isn't better than Jones.  Although if you are going to compare the two it's worth noting (PFF rankings)

Pass Protection:

Herbert- 7th
Jones- 31st

Receiving

Herbert- 7th
Jones- 30th

Regardless of talent levels with that sort of support disparity, one would certainly expect Herbert to be playing better

There is always an excuse.

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on September 28, 2023, 01:29:45 PMThere is always an excuse.

Are you suggesting we should ignore the quality of pass protection and receiving?  If so, please explain why.

The receiving is ranked 30th right now because Jones isn't getting them the ball.


I refuse to go this whole season with the he doesn't have pass protection and receiving. He got paid, to the detriment of the team filling other areas of concern and they still drafted him a center, Wr, and traded for Waller. So what else could they possibly do to make a dream scenario for Jones every game? He's got a top 5 RB, Top 5 TE and serious speed on the outside.


You all thought it was the greatest show on turf against the panthers in the preseason but now it's "garbage" lol its honestly comical.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on September 28, 2023, 01:45:45 PMThe receiving is ranked 30th right now because Jones isn't getting them the ball.


I refuse to go this whole season with the he doesn't have pass protection and receiving. He got paid, to the detriment of the team filling other areas of concern and they still drafted him a center, Wr, and traded for Waller. So what else could they possibly do to make a dream scenario for Jones every game? He's got a top 5 RB, Top 5 TE and serious speed on the outside.


You all thought it was the greatest show on turf against the panthers in the preseason but now it's "garbage" lol its honestly comical.

That's not how PFF grades work.  Unlike production, a WR's PFF grade isn't impacted by the QB. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 28, 2023, 12:25:45 PMTim,

I sort of agree with your assertion in bold.  I view it as this:  If there is roughly equal support, an elite QB will perform significantly better than an average one.  In terms of support though, I think the extremes (either elite-level support or really poor support) can, to a significant degree, neutralize the talent gap between QBs substancially.

Rich,

I only gave my unsolicited view about QBs and pass rush. If you're adding support to the equation, that's a totally separate factor that changes the conversation.

An average QB versus an elite pass rush will typically not perform as well as an elite QB versus an elite pass rush.

You and Rambo are essentially saying the same thing. Neither of you want to say "I agree" since that would give the appearance of you two getting along. Just my opinion.

Herbert has often performed much better than Jones in similar circumstances. It's been 5 years. This team needs an upgrade at the position.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 28, 2023, 01:34:49 PMAre you suggesting we should ignore the quality of pass protection and receiving?  If so, please explain why.