Giants and the Alex Smith model

[Dgoodmantrublu]

I firmly believe the most apt comparison for Daniel Jones is Alex Smith and you can win with him. However, you won't get to where you need to be because he is too timid of a QB. This is a very deep QB class coming up. I believe the Giants should trade up for a QB. Start Jones next season and let the QB learn behind him and then move on. Or let Jones pursue a trade. That is the best way forward to build a team that can compete to win a Super Bowl.

[MightyGiants]

Carl Banks, in his last podcast, called many Giants players out by name.  So Banks doesn't give players a pass.

That said, Carl did call out the criticism and this very message just today.


Here is Bobby Skinner calling out Jones for leaving plays on the table (being too "timid)

https://x.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1706478264926036007?s=20


Here is someone bringing that video to Carl's attention along with Carl's response.

https://x.com/CarlBanksGIII/status/1706708312173994110?s=20

[Dgoodmantrublu]

Banks and Papa contort like circus performers to excuse Jones. Papa was much harsher on Eli than he's ever been on Jones. I stand by my assessment. Other defensive coordinators see it that is why teams like Dallas and San Francisco are just killing us on these short passes that Jones throws far too often.

[MightyGiants]

Banks and Papa contort like circus performers to excuse Jones. Papa was much harsher on Eli than he's ever been on Jones. I stand by my assessment. Other defensive coordinators see it that is why teams like Dallas and San Francisco are just killing us on these short passes that Jones throws far too often.

I have listened to Carl Banks for quite some time, and I don't see the contortions that you claim they were guilty of.  Banks is pretty even-handed and calls it as he sees it.

I will add that far too many of the film breakdown guys, including Bobby Skinner, Dan, and Nick, are all guilty of talking with more certainty about plays than they really are.   Greg Cosell is the GOAT of film breakdown people, and he will tell you that there is always a degree of uncertainty in terms of the play design and the coach's intentions.

Banks also talks to the Giants coaching staff regularly, so he has insights that are quite valuable.  I can't imagine Banks is hearing comments like yours from the coaching staff, only to turn around and defend Jones from what he perceives as unfair criticism.

Like I said in another thread, once your line proves it can't protect, the QB needs to speed up his clock.   You can't expect QBs to predict the rare occasions when his line will actually hold up.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

We all have listened to Banks for some time. This is a guy who defended the Joe Judge staff until the very end. So he has a history of defending what shouldn't be defended. He works for the team and contorts himself to defend Jones. I trust film guys who willing to say what is obvious even when it makes the team look bad. Jones does what is safe. It may even be what is textbook. But he doesn't make the tough plays against good teams. That is as clear as night and day. The Niners were mocking him for this and knew they could just get him to throw quick to Campbell and make the tackle. Other teams know it. We need to stop pretending otherwise.

[MightyGiants]

We all have listened to Banks for some time. This is a guy who defended the Joe Judge staff until the very end. So he has a history of defending what shouldn't be defended. He works for the team and contorts himself to defend Jones. I trust film guys who willing to say what is obvious even when it makes the team look bad. Jones does what is safe. It may even be what is textbook. But he doesn't make the tough plays against good teams. That is as clear as night and day. The Niners were mocking him for this and knew they could just get him to throw quick to Campbell and make the tackle. Other teams know it. We need to stop pretending otherwise.

I explained who I believe and why I believe them (for the record, anonymous cheap-shot artists are not on my list of reliable sources).   You are certainly free to believe whomever you wish.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

Felato and Schneier are not cheap shot artists. Calling them that even by insinuation is pretty beyond the pale. Disagreement is fine. Character assassination is not. Critical analysis that they provide is vital for honest assessment. Listening only to those totally associated with the team is not the right way to go about things.

[MightyGiants]

Felato and Schneier are not cheap shot artists. Calling them that even by insinuation is pretty beyond the pale. Disagreement is fine. Character assassination is not. Critical analysis that they provide is vital for honest assessment. Listening only to those totally associated with the team is not the right way to go about things.

The cheap shot artists are the anonymous 49ers you cited to support your views.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

OK. That's fair. But you don't need the comments. You can just look at the film at how they played the Giants. They barely even paid attention to routes behind the sticks.

[MightyGiants]

OK. That's fair. But you don't need the comments. You can just look at the film at how they played the Giants. They barely even paid attention to routes behind the sticks.

In fairness, deep routes take time to develop.  If I was getting to the QB as quickly as the 49ers (or Dallas) was, I wouldn't be worried about the deep routes either.  This is especially true when I know the Giants' defense isn't doing well either so even if by some miracle the Giants burn my defense, I know I can make up the points.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

There was a deep route to Hyatt that could have been thrown with anticipation. But Jones just doesn't take chances. He goes too far to the check down. This is why he's Alex Smith. A guy you can win with under really good conditions. But not a difference-making QB.

[Rambo89]

The cheap shot artists are the anonymous 49ers you cited to support your views.

The cheap shots about Jones's contract I get but I do think there was something to their comments about him leaning on checkdowns as a habit.

[MightyGiants]

The cheap shots about Jones's contract I get but I do think there was something to their comments about him leaning on checkdowns as a habit.

When I talk about cheap shots, I am more referring to the ones they took on the field, like deliberately injuring DJ Davidson and sucker punching Robinson.  Although I will not disagree if one wishes to characterize tossing out insults and putdowns anonymously as a cheap shot.

As for the check-downs, as I said before, I am inclined to listen to what Carl Banks said.   The reality is only the coaching staff and the team know what Jones was instructed to do.   It's well within the realm of possibilities that Jones was instructed when it doubt check it down, due to the coaches being concerned about the terrible O-line and not wanting to take sacks or risk fumbles or INTs.

[Ed Vette]

Alex Smith was a good QB. Daniel Jones is a better QB and checkdown and caution were drilled into him the last 4 years. Tough to get it out of your head. He had a high % of accurate deep throws during his rookie season under Pat Shurmur. We all know he's been slow to process but the play call should be primary Hyatt and reads from there on some of those plays. Is it that complicated for Kafka to do that? Btw, the deep routes should be where he starts his reads and if he feels pressure he knows where his outlets are. There have been a lot of games where DJ had culpability but with a few exceptions of about a half dozen plays, this year ain't on him. Yet. And I'm sure someone will be pointing it out and it may even be me.

Now, let's look at some of these position coaches like Tierney and Johnson and question why their players are struggling so much. Daboll has some shine on him so he doesn't have to stick with who he's comfortable with from previous relationships. He stuck with continuity and I get that but at some point, there has to be consequences. 

[True Blue]

I firmly believe the most apt comparison for Daniel Jones is Alex Smith and you can win with him. However, you won't get to where you need to be because he is too timid of a QB. This is a very deep QB class coming up. I believe the Giants should trade up for a QB. Start Jones next season and let the QB learn behind him and then move on. Or let Jones pursue a trade. That is the best way forward to build a team that can compete to win a Super Bowl.

@Dgoodmantrublu I agree with your post and assessment. Alex Smith is a great comparison.

Daniel Jones is a good QB, as was Smith. Jones is a much better runner, Smith probably a slightly better passer so it about evens out. But while these guys are good QBs they limit the ceiling the team has.

I would be in favor of the approach you suggested. This lets them compete and build for another season and a half, and then they can work towards taking that next leap for the team. A trade for DJ is unlikely but they can get out easy enough if they decide that is the best move. Hopefully he breaks out but after 5 years I think what you see is what you get, but I am holding out hope that he can put it all together and step up to where he needs to be. If he does that makes things that much easier with him at QB.

But in all likelihood he has that Alex Smith ceiling