Giants and the Alex Smith model

[kartanoman]

Smith had an unreal defense that carried him. He was not the reason for the success of those teams. And that is the model for Jones to succeed. But that is a problem because you can't maintain that talent level once a QB is paid.

Funny, I remember Smith carrying the defense against New Orleans in the 2011 Divisional Playoff game where Drew Brees cut holes in the 49ers' defense and Smith kept leading the offense and matched Brees score for score until he tossed the winner to Davis with nearly no time left to win 36-32.

Even in the NFC Championship game, Smith and Manning played to a draw with both defenses taking the game over. It came down to turnovers by the special teams which proved the difference.

Even in 2012, Smith had the 49ers at 6-2 before a concussion ended his career in SF. Harbaugh helped Smith resurrect his career and he sustained a period of demonstrated performance, self-confidence and leadership before he sustained that concussion. But history will show that Kaepernick brought a dynamic skillset to the SF QB position which transformed that offense and Harbaugh decided to roll the dice and ride it all the way to the Super Bowl where the 49ers just fell short in the end.

The 49ers traded Smith to the Chiefs in 2013 and Andy Reid further helped Smith develop and he had five solid performance seasons for the Chiefs.

So, I'm still not seeing the analogy between Smith and Jones. Especially since Jones hasn't been "carried" by anyone on his team, maybe that's where I'm missing the boat. You tell me.

Peace!

[Dgoodmantrublu]

We won the NFC title game largely because Alex Smith couldn't convert a single third down besides a meaningless completion at the end of regulation. If the QBs were reversed in that game, San Francisco wins easily. Their defense was simply a much better unit than ours.

Funny, I remember Smith carrying the defense against New Orleans in the 2011 Divisional Playoff game where Drew Brees cut holes in the 49ers' defense and Smith kept leading the offense and matched Brees score for score until he tossed the winner to Davis with nearly no time left to win 36-32.

Even in the NFC Championship game, Smith and Manning played to a draw with both defenses taking the game over. It came down to turnovers by the special teams which proved the difference.

Even in 2012, Smith had the 49ers at 6-2 before a concussion ended his career in SF. Harbaugh helped Smith resurrect his career and he sustained a period of demonstrated performance, self-confidence and leadership before he sustained that concussion. But history will show that Kaepernick brought a dynamic skillset to the SF QB position which transformed that offense and Harbaugh decided to roll the dice and ride it all the way to the Super Bowl where the 49ers just fell short in the end.

The 49ers traded Smith to the Chiefs in 2013 and Andy Reid further helped Smith develop and he had five solid performance seasons for the Chiefs.

So, I'm still not seeing the analogy between Smith and Jones. Especially since Jones hasn't been "carried" by anyone on his team, maybe that's where I'm missing the boat. You tell me.

Peace!

[Rambo89]

We won the NFC title game largely because Alex Smith couldn't convert a single third down besides a meaningless completion at the end of regulation. If the QBs were reversed in that game, San Francisco wins easily. Their defense was simply a much better unit than ours.

That's the difference between an Average QB and an Elite one.  That's the difference between the Chiefs with Alex Smith and the Chiefs with Patrick Mahomes.

[True Blue]

That's the difference between an Average QB and an Elite one.  That's the difference between the Chiefs with Alex Smith and the Chiefs with Patrick Mahomes.

True, Mahomes literally took over the team Alex Smith was running.

[nicky1000]

@Dgoodmantrublu I agree with your post and assessment. Alex Smith is a great comparison.

Daniel Jones is a good QB, as was Smith. Jones is a much better runner, Smith probably a slightly better passer so it about evens out. But while these guys are good QBs they limit the ceiling the team has.

I would be in favor of the approach you suggested. This lets them compete and build for another season and a half, and then they can work towards taking that next leap for the team. A trade for DJ is unlikely but they can get out easy enough if they decide that is the best move. Hopefully he breaks out but after 5 years I think what you see is what you get, but I am holding out hope that he can put it all together and step up to where he needs to be. If he does that makes things that much easier with him at QB.

But in all likelihood he has that Alex Smith ceiling

Im torn. Starting with the film, some of it may be deceiving while other parts of it are eye opening. Alex Smith is a fair comp and you can win with a guy like that.

That said, remember when Payton was stripped
of play calling? Or when Hufnagel was fired? One knock in Payton was he had too much motion and it gummed up the offense. Hufnagel didnt work well
with Eli's skillset. Point being, under Shurmur DJ let it rip. Because he has to game manage more because of the perceived talent gap between most teams, he is tentative. Bottom
line, even with a suspect O line he needs more autonomy to let if fly.

[Bob In PA]

Banks is correct. If the timing of a play is disrupted it changes everything.

There are too many "moving parts" on the field for a QB to keep track of all at the same time.

That is WHY having a disruptive pass rush is so important in today's pro football.

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Banks is correct. If the timing of a play is disrupted it changes everything.

There are too many "moving parts" on the field for a QB to keep track of all at the same time.

That is WHY having a disruptive pass rush is so important in today's pro football.

Bob

One only needs to look at the first Super Bowl against the Patriots.   Spags put pressure on the greatest QB of all time, Tom Brady, and it impacted his game to where he looked very ordinary.   As Wink likes to say, pressure breaks pipes.

[Rambo89]

We can pull the rare exception for the great QB's where pressure impacts their performance in that game.  But again those are the rare exceptions for them not the norm.  For those QB's who are average or worse it's used as the norm to explain poor performances/lack of production not the exception.

[MightyGiants]

We can pull the rare exception for the great QB's where pressure impacts their performance in that game.  But again those are the rare exceptions for them not the norm.  For those QB's who are average or worse it's used as the norm to explain poor performances/lack of production not the exception.

They are not "rare exceptions." we saw the same issue suffered by Mahomes in a Super Bowl, before the Chiefs invested big time in his protection.

[Rambo89]

They are not "rare exceptions." we saw the same issue suffered by Mahomes in a Super Bowl, before the Chiefs invested big time in his protection.

Those games for those QB's are the rare exception not the norm for them where they are unproductive and don't play well.

[MightyGiants]

Those games for those QB's are the rare exception not the norm for them where they are unproductive and don't play well.

They are rare because good QB play is usually paired with good protection.   However, it's very rare to see good QB play when there is very bad protection, even from the best QBs.   At it's heart, this is why we differ on QB assessments of players like Jones. You don't believe QB play can be harmed by poor pass protection and/or poor receiver play, while I do.

[Rambo89]

They are rare because good QB play is usually paired with good protection.   However, it's very rare to see good QB play when there is very bad protection, even from the best QBs.   At it's heart, this is why we differ on QB assessments of players like Jones. You don't believe QB play can be harmed by poor pass protection and/or poor receiver play, while I do.

Then again this goes back to the QB's are interchangeable point and that the logic is that supporting casts are more important than the QB's themselves.  Which means it doesn't make sense to invest as much into a QB as you do the supporting cast.

[MightyGiants]

Then again this goes back to the QB's are interchangeable point and that the logic is that supporting casts are more important than the QB's themselves.  Which means it doesn't make sense to invest as much into a QB as you do the supporting cast.

The NFL loves to spin the tales of individual heroics.  It drives fan interest and sells jerseys.   The reality is that the NFL is and always will be a team sport.  Eli Manning isn't the MVP of Super Bowl XLII if David Tyree doesn't catch the ball with his helmet.   Let us not get confused. QB is an important position (the most important position), but that doesn't change the reality of QBs needing proper support.  Ask Rodgers if pass protection is important in terms of being able to perform on the field.

[Rambo89]

The NFL loves to spin the tales of individual heroics.  It drives fan interest and sells jerseys.   The reality is that the NFL is and always will be a team sport.  Eli Manning isn't the MVP of Super Bowl XLII if David Tyree doesn't catch the ball with his helmet.   Let us not get confused. QB is an important position (the most important position), but that doesn't change the reality of QBs needing proper support.  Ask Rodgers if pass protection is important in terms of being able to perform on the field.

If QB is the most important position then the results produced and performance should be viewed as more dependent on their own play than those around them.  If their performance and production is more dependent on their supporting cast then they aren't nearly as important as they are made out to be.

[T200]

@Rambo and @MightyGiants  - I think you both are right. Now you're just arguing the minutiae of who is "more right" to win the point.

An effective pass rush can neutralize even the greatest QBs. The big difference between elite and average QBs is that they still find ways to be successful, even if it doesn't equate to a win. They don't fold under the pressure.