Giants and the Alex Smith model

[Rambo89]

Rich,

I only gave my unsolicited view about QBs and pass rush. If you're adding support to the equation, that's a totally separate factor that changes the conversation.

An average QB versus an elite pass rush will typically not perform as well as an elite QB versus an elite pass rush.

You and Rambo are essentially saying the same thing. Neither of you want to say "I agree" since that would give the appearance of you two getting along. Just my opinion.

Think where Rich and I disagree is the degree the supporting cast impacts a QB's performance/production with him believing it impacts it significantly more than I do (seems to be the case with everyone here).  I don't believe extremes neutralize a talent gap and he does and that's cool.  Think we both can agree that we disagree on that.

[True Blue]

Herbert has often performed much better than Jones in similar circumstances. It's been 5 years. This team needs an upgrade at the position.

I agree

Herbert makes plays under pressure, Keenan, Williams and Ekeler have all missed their share of time and he still produces and plays at a high level even without them. Numbers aren't even close.

He too is on his third offensive coordinator, he has produced extremely well despite that much turnover. Jones has never come close to breathing that same air.

If Mahomes is a 10, Herbert is a 9, and DJ is a 6.

Joe Burrow made it to a Super Bowl with an OL worse than what we have, protection matters, but the great ones find a way to make it work.

Jones has left many plays on the table, he has missed them. I don't care if some claim his internal clock is messed up from the poor OL play, the plays were there with a pocket available to him, he has to make it work when they are there for the taking. Look at Eli against SF in the NFCCG, took an absolute beating for 60 minutes, but he stepped up, shook it off, and did not let it make him play scared. He did what he had to do

Jones is good, but he is not great, and if we need a fairy tale dream scenario for him to have a CHANCE to succeed, he never will be great, he is what his resume says he is. A good, solid QB, nothing more, nothing less.

[Rambo89]

That's not how PFF grades work.  Unlike production, a WR's PFF grade isn't impacted by the QB. 

How so when a WR's PFF grade is based upon them getting the ball? 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-receiving

[MightyGiants]

Herbert has often performed much better than Jones in similar circumstances. It's been 5 years. This team needs an upgrade at the position.

I went through all the years Herbert was in the league and looked at the pass-blocking and the receiving ranks.  There wasn't even a single year where they were in "similar circumstances."  Herbert has consistently enjoyed significantly better blocking and better receiving (the closest ever was Herbert's rookie season; he has only slightly better protection to pair with superior receiving).

I appreciate that you believe the team needs to upgrade at QB, but if you believe that protection and receiving impact performance, then I don't think we should be using Herbert as proof of that need.

[MightyGiants]

How so when a WR's PFF grade is based upon them getting the ball? 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-receiving

Receivers who consistently beat man and zone coverage, win contested catches or create yards after the catch will grade well in the PFF system.  Receivers who fail to separate, fail to catch the ball consistently or fail to create after the catch will grade poorly.

Obviously, a pass thrown their way creates chances to improve or worsen their grade, but they do take into account how they are running routes and if they are getting open.  Considering 3 out of 4 INTs are on the receivers and the Giants are ranked low on separation gained, it's not hard to see how they earned their poor grade, and it has little to nothing to do with Jones (although the O-line likely hurts them as they have less time to achieve separation)

[Dgoodmantrublu]

This thread is what I mean by taking PFF as facts. Just because their grades say something doesn't make it true. Herbert was good his rookie year. Their OL was a joke. He made his OL look better with his quick release. He's done the same in other years.

[True Blue]

Receivers who consistently beat man and zone coverage, win contested catches or create yards after the catch will grade well in the PFF system.  Receivers who fail to separate, fail to catch the ball consistently or fail to create after the catch will grade poorly.

Obviously, a pass thrown their way creates chances to improve or worsen their grade, but they do take into account how they are running routes and if they are getting open.  Considering 3 out of 4 INTs are on the receivers and the Giants are ranked low on separation gained, it's not hard to see how they earned their poor grade, and it has little to nothing to do with Jones (although the O-line likely hurts them as they have less time to achieve separation)

This contradicts your prior statement. This can't be said while also claiming a QB doesn't impact a WR grade

EDIT: The third bolded I did not bold the others

[Rambo89]

Receivers who consistently beat man and zone coverage, win contested catches or create yards after the catch will grade well in the PFF system.  Receivers who fail to separate, fail to catch the ball consistently or fail to create after the catch will grade poorly.

Obviously, a pass thrown their way creates chances to improve or worsen their grade, but they do take into account how they are running routes and if they are getting open.  Considering 3 out of 4 INTs are on the receivers and the Giants are ranked low on separation gained, it's not hard to see how they earned their poor grade, and it has little to nothing to do with Jones (although the O-line likely hurts them as they have less time to achieve separation)

Exactly, so to say that a WR's grade isn't impacted by QB play isn't true.  It is impacted.  If a receiver isn't being thrown the ball they aren't being given a chance to better or worsen their grade.  I'm not sure how PFF would know what the play called for as far as the correct route or whether the receiver had the option of changing their route based upon the coverage.

This thread is what I mean by taking PFF as facts. Just because their grades say something doesn't make it true. Herbert was good his rookie year. Their OL was a joke. He made his OL look better with his quick release. He's done the same in other years.

That's another flaw with PFF it's not so much fact as it is a calculation based upon an opinion of the person doing the scoring.  So using it in a debate isn't necessarily using a fact as it is using a source based off of one method for looking at evaluations.

[MightyGiants]

Exactly, so to say that a WR's grade isn't impacted by QB play isn't true.  It is impacted.  If a receiver isn't being thrown the ball they aren't being given a chance to better or worsen their grade.  I'm not sure how PFF would know what the play called for as far as the correct route or whether the receiver had the option of changing their route based upon the coverage.


That's another flaw with PFF it's not so much fact as it is a calculation based upon an opinion of the person doing the scoring.  So using it in a debate isn't necessarily using a fact as it is using a source based off of one method for looking at evaluations.

@True Blue

You know to a degree, you guys may have a point.  More targets (although how much of that is a function of the QB, and how much is due to scheme, snaps, and separation?) could give a receiver a chance to boost their grade (although a bad QB throw would give them a chance to boost their grade by making a harder catch).  Still, I will concede there is a possibility Jones may have impacted their grades one way or the other.

 Although, since you were quite critical of my commentary, perhaps you can be equally analytic with the other side of things.  Please explain to me how "Jones didn't get them the ball." What was measured?   How was it exactly determined that Jones drove down the receiver's grades?

I was more than willing to concede a fair point, and I hope you will show a willingness to reciprocate by showing a willingness to look at both sides of the issue with equal intensity.

[Rambo89]

@True Blue

You know to a degree, you guys may have a point.  More targets (although how much of that is a function of the QB, and how much is due to scheme, snaps, and separation?) could give a receiver a chance to boost their grade (although a bad QB throw would give them a chance to boost their grade by making a harder catch).  Still, I will concede there is a possibility Jones may have impacted their grades one way or the other.

 Although, since you were quite critical of my commentary, perhaps you can be equally analytic with the other side of things.  Please explain to me how "Jones didn't get them the ball." What was measured?   How was it exactly determined that Jones drove down the receiver's grades?

I was more than willing to concede a fair point, and I hope you will show a willingness to reciprocate by showing a willingness to look at both sides of the issue with equal intensity.

That's all I was trying to point out when I asked my question about a QB's play impacting how PFF grades receivers.  The point also isn't just about Jones but also Herbert whose ability could be impacting those high grades in a positive direction.  To what degree we can speculate based upon our own opinions but not on any facts that can't be disputed.

[Bob In PA]

The Jones debate will never end. It was the same with Phil Simms (even after he WON). It's boring. I think we Giants' fans should stop taking seriously those annual "press clippings" stating that we're "knowledgeable." 

No doubt, as a group, we are unbelievably interested and involved, and we DO do our best to be informed in a situation where the team does EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to keep us in the dark.  We simply do not have access to all of the facts that would enable us to claim we "know better" than the guys who decided to pay Jones all that money.

All the angst, over-analysis and complaining in the world won't change the fact that Jones is the Giants' QB.

If you want to ignore facts, it's your privilege, and that's why this site is here, so have at it, but remember that no matter what you say (i.e., Jones is letting the team down -or- is overpaid -or- is not as good as "X") the same can be said of the rest of the offense... THEY (the OL in particular) are letting Jones down! 

Or does someone care to make the case that the offensive line is NOT letting Jones down, or that the offensive line IS giving him enough time run Daboll's/Kafka's plays, or that Jones is making the line look bad?

Bob