Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 25, 2022, 01:43:35 PMI think it is fair to say that there is no precise, widely-agreed upon definition of "franchise QB." Everyone has their own take on the phrase, which is fine. It's not a phrase with a precise definition.

To me, and this is just my personal opinion, I think it's hard to firmly declare any QB a "franchise QB" if he's not clearly top 10. If you start extending it beyond the top 10, you're getting to a point where you're close to saying that half or nearly half of the league's starters are "franchise QBs." I don't personally feel that way myself. I think the "franchise QB" label has a more exclusive scope than that. I think 10 is probably the most. Again, this is my personal opinion of the definition of the phrase, and I'm not saying those who disagree are wrong.

I do not see Jones as a top 10 QB this year, and I don't think many objective people do. I have felt and said for a while now that he is a middle of the road starter, which is hardly an insult or even being a "detractor." If someone says you're the 14th-17th best QB in the world, that's not exactly an insult in my book. But to me that's not a "franchise QB."

Yeah, these terms are horribly imprecise.  To me a franchise QB is a guy whose team doesn't think of replacing him.  Eli was rarely in the top ten of QBs but the Giants never thought seriously of replacing him until the end.  And, IMO he was elite for 2 playoff runs and the 2011 season.  But he was clearly a franchise QB, IMO.

The conundrum with DJ is that he is ranked 17 playing on an offense that is far below 17th.  And some blame him for not elevating the other players.  An elite QB can elevate a good offense to very good, and an average offense to a good offense, but I don't think the QB has been born who can elevate a bad offense to a very good offense.  I think DJ has elevated a bad offense to a slightly below offense.  And the question is, what could he elevate an average or good offense to.  And how would playing on such offenses change his ranking, because rankings are dynamic, not static.  He wouldn't be Mahomes in the KC offense, but I doubt he'd rank 17th.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 25, 2022, 12:56:01 PMIf Jones feels that way let him walk.  While the Giants didn't provide him the perfect situation Jones didn't do everything he could to elevate those around him.

There is a vast gulf between a "perfect" situation and the garbage they saddled him with, up to and including this year, although the coaching HAS improved this year.  But the offensive roster hasn't.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 25, 2022, 12:42:15 PMI have no doubt that Jones will want to resign with the stable coaching staff he has now.

Time will tell.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 25, 2022, 09:57:27 AMI mentioned this in another post!

Great minds, and all that.

Quote from: TDToomer on December 25, 2022, 10:29:21 AMI though Jones was fantastic yesterday outside of a rare interception. I was watching the game with my dad who was a big Jones critic and we both expect him to be resigned. 

But, it takes 2 to tango and he might not be all that interested in re-signing with a team that hasn't been stable coaching wise and that has failed, in 4 years, to put more than a couple of decent pieces around him.  And if he looks back and sees how they essentially wasted half of Eli's career with the same problems . . .  I guess it depends on whether he has faith that the new regime can reverse the failures of the last 10 years.

Given the expectation that the Jets are supposedly going to move on from Wilson, I wonder if they will be one of the team's that goes after DJ?

Daniel Jones needs to be able to throw over 300 yards and lead a 4th qtr drive with his passing.

Daniel Jones throws over 300 yards and leads a 4th qtr drive with his passing.

Not good enough.

Good game for DJ, but I like it better when he throws for 170 yards and the Giants win.

And I've made it no secret that I consider the first 2 wins of the season as flukes.  Well in my book, losing to a 61 yard walk-off cancels out one of the early flukes.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 24, 2022, 08:40:22 AMJust proves Christmas miracles do happen   

Awww, c'mon, we agree about a lot of things.      

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 24, 2022, 09:02:32 AMJones has great command of an offense that is 22nd in total yards, 28th in passing yards and at the top of the league in fewest turnovers.  Put it all together and it says that Daniel Jones is a highly efficient game manager.

He could be elite if you gave him the 90's Cowboys offensive line, the 98 Vikings WR's, Marshall Faulk as his RB and Tony Gonzalez as his tight end. 

Fine, so long as you understand that is you saying that, not me.  I've never claimed he needs elites at every position, just a reasonable amount of quality on the ofense, something he has never had here.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 24, 2022, 12:30:55 AMI actually believe 90%+ agrees on DJs potential future. The fringes (he stinks or he'll be elite with a top-tier Wr) are minor.

I'm in a different 'fringe', apparently.  I think he could become elite on a team that has an offense with a reasonable amount of NFL-level quality.  And as I said before I'm not talking about the hyperbolic distortion some have read into this and claimed I want an elite guy at every position.

Alas, I think circumstances have made this impossible to occur for the Giants, because they needed to get to that point of a reasonable amount of quality on the offense while he was on his rookie contract and they didn't.  So now he is more valuable to a team that has this, but no QB, than he is to the Giants, who don't have this yet and need to build it out over the next year or two.  Letting DJ and Barkley walk would accelerate the build out.  IMO, needless to say.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 08:42:26 PM3 pages to answer a multiple choice question is something I've personally never seen before lol.

Nuance is difficult with a multiple choice questions.  It is not a multiple choice world.  My own position didn't fit anywhere within those choices.

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 07:26:01 PMSounds like where in violent agreement, Rich.

Maybe on process, but not on outcome.

Ironically you don't seem to like Jones that much but now seem to be willing to transition tag him if they don't have a suitable draft target, while I like Jones a lot* but I think the 28 million the tag would cost is too much and would be too much of an impediment to resigning our key players and filling some of our myriad holes with solid middle cost players and maybe one bigger signing. Same reason I prefer not signing Barkley.  The Giants window of opportunity with Jones closed when they failed to use the years of his cheap rookie contract to successfully build out the team.  But he is worth good money to a team that is built out already but who lack a QB, IMO.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I like Jones more than you do, but you are more willing to transition tag him than I am.

*I've previously opined that on an offense with a competent NFL quality OL and NFL quality receivers (not an offense with elites at every position, as some have distorted the position) Jones would be a top ten QB.  My sense is you wouldn't agree.

Of course there is a decent chance that I am completely wrong, which is why I'm glad I'm not making the decisions. 

Quote from: kingm56 on December 23, 2022, 06:42:58 PMThat's true for everyone whose revenue and/or contacts is predicated by viewership.  It's all about content, regardless of the accuracy of said content. I'd recommend posters do their own critical thinking and analysis, vice consuming multiple podcasts.

Hence why I don't post these kinds of things myself.  But there are a lot of guys who provide meat to get eyeballs, not just pure clickbait that is devoid of content beyond just a throwaway  opinion.  Like the guy who does the detailed film breakdowns under 'Talking Giants', Bobby Skinner, or the guy who did the Thib's breakdown over the last 3 games that I posted - I don't even know the name or credentials of the guy who runs 'The Football Scout' but I know his breakdown deepened my understanding.  I'd love to see him do a similar video on this last, monster, game Thibs had.  Or the guy who does the QB School website who did a nice breakdown after the London game.  Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj_YlNSwUME&t=9s

For me, things like this provide actual value.

And considering that my position on Jones is pretty unique on this board, I think it's clear that I don't follow any of these guys as gurus, I do my own thinking.  You may not agree with my thinking, but it is my own.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 23, 2022, 03:00:52 PMPersonally, I find it astonishing, outrageous even, that a group of people who have zero NFL experience, either as a coach, executive, scout, or player, and (barring perhaps one or two exceptions) have never played serious college football even, think they are more knowledgeable about this sport or a specific player than a Hall of Fame TE who won three Super Bowls, was a first team all pro four times, and spent a number of years practicing and playing with one of the ten greatest QBs ever to play this game (John Elway).

For some random dude sitting at home or at work in front of his computer who has never sniffed an NFL paycheck to refer to Shannon Sharpe as a "shock-jock", and for others here to deny that he's an expert on this sport (or imply as much), simply because what he had to say doesn't happen to suit their agendas, shows how far some are willing to go to defend their views and besmirch others whom they have absolutely no business doing that to and look ridiculous while doing it.

It is especially hard to fathom considering a lot of these same people post random tweets and articles written by some random nobody with zero professional football credentials just because the content is attempting to pump a certain player up that they want to see pumped up.

Pretty wild and crazy stuff if you ask me. But hey, the truth is that nothing really surprises me that much anymore these days.

Maybe it's that lots of other professionals have given an opposite argument and included analysis while the guy in question makes his money by providing controversial opinions and just threw out a clickbait tweet without anything behind it.  I have a much higher regard for his brother Sterling, who used to do that show with Baldinger analyzing upcoming match-ups.  I don't see a lot of Shannon, but I can't recall ever seeing him doing any serious analysis.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 23, 2022, 12:33:35 PMThat's the problem right there, I don't think Jones is a superstar but I don't think he's garbage either. I think he's ok but not for 20 or 30 million a year. Tannehill got a 4yr 118 million and because of that aav of 29 million a year coupled with Henry's contract, those two single handedly handicapped the Titans. We got Adoree because of that, and the Eagles got AJ Brown, they lost most of their home grown talent on defense and offense because of a contract for a great RB and decent QB.

Can 2 people single handedly do something?  LOL

Just teasing.