NGT - If Klecko is HOF-worthy, why isn't Gastineau?

[DaveBrown74]

I saw Joe Klecko was being inducted into the Hall of Fame. I really liked Klecko. Excellent player, great team guy. I am supportive of him getting in. Good for him. I feel he deserves it, and I'm glad to see it.

However, if Joe Klecko is getting in, how is Mark Gastineau not in? Does anyone here who was watching football in the early/mid 80s think Klecko was close to Gastineau in talent and production during that period? I don't see the two as close, myself. Klecko was very good, but Gastineau was elite. Gastineau has had multiple 20 sack seasons, he's a 6 time all pro, and he's a top 50 overall sack leader. The guy was a monster.

I understand Gastineau has had controversy in his life, but dementia and other struggles have clearly plagued him. How much of his various troubles are his fault is a separate discussion. The bottom line for me is that if the HOF is primarily about what players did on the field, I am struggling to understand how they would put Klecko in but not Gastineau. Gastineau was absolutely dominant during that period. He was the first player in NFL history to lead the NFL in sacks in back to back seasons. He was the heart and soul of the New York Sack Exchange.

Is the Hall of Fame more a popularity contest than a genuine tribute to on-the-field play? If not, why is Klecko in over Gastineau?

[Dgoodmantrublu]

I don't think he is worthy. He just wasn't good enough against the run. Leonard Marshall is more deserving than Klecko.

[AZGiantFan]

I saw Joe Klecko was being inducted into the Hall of Fame. I really liked Klecko. Excellent player, great team guy. I am supportive of him getting in. Good for him. I feel he deserves it, and I'm glad to see it.

However, if Joe Klecko is getting in, how is Mark Gastineau not in? Does anyone here who was watching football in the early/mid 80s think Klecko was close to Gastineau in talent and production during that period? I don't see the two as close, myself. Klecko was very good, but Gastineau was elite. Gastineau has had multiple 20 sack seasons, he's a 6 time all pro, and he's a top 50 overall sack leader. The guy was a monster.

I understand Gastineau has had controversy in his life, but dementia and other struggles have clearly plagued him. How much of his various troubles are his fault is a separate discussion. The bottom line for me is that if the HOF is primarily about what players did on the field, I am struggling to understand how they would put Klecko in but not Gastineau. Gastineau was absolutely dominant during that period. He was the first player in NFL history to lead the NFL in sacks in back to back seasons. He was the heart and soul of the New York Sack Exchange.

Is the Hall of Fame more a popularity contest than a genuine tribute to on-the-field play? If not, why is Klecko in over Gastineau?

For a discussion of this:

https://www.profootballresearchers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6529&sid=4e4eb309c3041f4ed7738d7b83dcb080

Note, in particular, the 4th post by a guy named bryan.  My favorite Gastineau story.

[beaugestus]

Let me see, Klecko made the Pro bowl at DE....DT....and NT I think the first player in the NFL to do so. He was equally strong against the running game and the pass rush.

Gastineau, when retired in the documentary on Klecko (I'd highly recommend it on SNY) even admitted that all he cared about was the pass rush. Don't get me wrong Gastineau was a good player but was no Joe Klecko.

[DaveBrown74]

Let me see, Klecko made the Pro bowl at DE....DT....and NT I think the first player in the NFL to do so. He was equally strong against the running game and the pass rush.

Gastineau, when retired in the documentary on Klecko (I'd highly recommend it on SNY) even admitted that all he cared about was the pass rush. Don't get me wrong Gastineau was a good player but was no Joe Klecko.

If we're counting Pro Bowls and All Pros, Gastineau was in more of both of them than Klecko.

Again, I have no problem with Klecko being in. As I said in the OP, I'm totally supportive. My point is simply that I don't get why Gastineau is not in if Klecko is. Klecko may have been more popular and the better teammate, but Gastineau to me was the much more talented player by, and he had some pretty incredible seasons during that defense's heyday. If Klecko is deserving, which again I am totally fine with, then Gastineau is too.

[madbadger]

Right or wrong a man who went to prison for being a serial wife beater will never be enshrined in the hall of fame. Before his Alzheimer's it appeared as if he had cleaned his life up but by then the damage was done.

[Jaime]

In addition to his legal troubles (which were numerous and serious) I'll throw this out for debate.
I was A HUGE NFL fan in my late 20's, and I saw Gastinaeu in his prime, Sack Dance and all.
He was listed at 6'-5" 261 lbs. and ripped. I thought he was a tad heavier than that?
He had RB speed and a high revving engine. They didn't test for PED's or masking agents in those days.
I believe he used PED's aplenty. To mantain that level of production in spite of injury, for a decade without PED's,
rings hollow with me. His off-field behavior could be attributed to Roid Rage. I suspect that the Powers that be,
gave the thumbs down, when HOF was being considered.
Your thoughts?

[DaveBrown74]

In addition to his legal troubles (which were numerous and serious) I'll throw this out for debate.
I was A HUGE NFL fan in my late 20's, and I saw Gastinaeu in his prime, Sack Dance and all.
He was listed at 6'-5" 261 lbs. and ripped. I thought he was a tad heavier than that?
He had RB speed and a high revving engine. They didn't test for PED's or masking agents in those days.
I believe he used PED's aplenty. To mantain that level of production in spite of injury, for a decade without PED's,
rings hollow with me. His off-field behavior could be attributed to Roid Rage. I suspect that the Powers that be,
gave the thumbs down, when HOF was being considered.
Your thoughts?

Makes sense, although I doubt he was the only one doing roids back then (or now), assuming that's true. I'm sure there are numerous HOF members who took roids. So that alone doesn't seem a reason to keep him out, especially if it wasn't proven.

We can point to his off the field stuff, but if we do, we probably shouldn't be putting LT up on any sort of pedestal.

If the HOF is part popularity contest, then that's fine. But on-the-field wise I see him as worthy myself. Just my opinion.

[Jaime]

I saw a pic of him with his shirt off. At 6'-5" 261 lbs. he was sporting six pack Abs. Got to be under 10% body fat to make that happen. Tough to explain that one, being clean(?). He was running around OT's with regularity. Unless I'm mistaken, nobody else was putting up crazy Sack #'s comparable during Gastineu's career. The Sack gap between Gastineu and the rest of the NFL was too great to be explained away as "he's a superior athlete".

As for LT, after many failed tests (even after being given numerous heads up for testing) finally, dah Jints couldn't cover up LT's failed tests anymore. And the League suspended LT for four Games. To his credit, under increased scrutainey LT tested clean and continued to put up incredible #'s. Maybe the most blatant Off-field escape by LT was getting pulled over on the GSPW for being all over the road. Before he got tested for DWI by Troopers, LT threw his keys into the woods. Then he puked on the side of the GSPW. He blamed the entire episode on bad Chinese food, and got away with it. Popularity did wonders for LT, especially prior to increased rules & regs governing such behavior.

My Father was a sportsman ahead of his time. He owned and operated a Nightclub called the Country Squire in Wayne, NJ. At the same time, he held season tix for dah Jints, Knicks, & Rangers. I learned later on, he did in fact hang out with LT at his Nightclub called "LT's".I can't mention what my Father saw LT involved in. Suffice to say, when NFL rules & regs stiffened up, LT would have been tossed out of the NFL, permanently.

[DaveBrown74]

I saw a pic of him with his shirt off. At 6'-5" 261 lbs. he was sporting six pack Abs. Got to be under 10% body fat to make that happen. Tough to explain that one, being clean(?). He was running around OT's with regularity. Unless I'm mistaken, nobody else was putting up crazy Sack #'s comparable during Gastineu's career. The Sack gap between Gastineu and the rest of the NFL was too great to be explained away as "he's a superior athlete".

So if I'm understanding right, despite putting up HOF type seasons, the argument is that he should not be in the Hall because he was "probably" taking PEDs, even though to my knowledge that was never proven?

I have to conclude the reason he is not in the Hall is that people just didn't like him and he did have some off the field drama. LT has (arguably) worse off-the-field stuff but I guess was better liked.

There is a definitely a popularity contest aspect to the Hall. Why do you think it took so long for Parcells to get in? As far as coaches go, he should have been a first ballot guy.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

Gastineau was a one dimensional player. You could run at him with ease. The only way he belongs in the hall is if he buys a ticket.

LT and him aren't even comparable as players.

Parcells took a long time because he kept coming back to coaching and people didn't believe he was really retired for a long time.

[DaveBrown74]

Gastineau was a one dimensional player. You could run at him with ease. The only way he belongs in the hall is if he buys a ticket.

LT and him aren't even comparable as players.

Parcells took a long time because he kept coming back to coaching and people didn't believe he was really retired for a long time.

I never compared him to LT as a player. I was considering the off-the-field stuff, which has been listed throughout this thread as an explanation for why he is not in.

As for on-the-field, how many five time all-pros (four times on the first team) who have been retired for over five years can you name who are not in? I don't know the answer, but I bet it's a pretty small number.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

I think he was massively overrated. This was before the time when people who covered the league broke down film. You could have run against him. He was legitimately terrible against the run.

[DaveBrown74]

I think he was massively overrated. This was before the time when people who covered the league broke down film. You could have run against him. He was legitimately terrible against the run.

I'll take that as a compliment because here he is chasing down Franco Harris:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5mG633J4p8


Agree to disagree on him being massively overrated. As far as the early 80s go he was pretty much the most feared pass rusher in the league. LT was just cutting his teeth during Gastineau's heyday. Stopping the run may not have been his specialty but to say he was "terrible" against the run is hypperbolic.

Now... I do fully concede he was not a team guy and was involved in bad stuff off the field, and if that's why he's not in, fine, but I think he was extremely talented and productive. Even if there were weaknesses in his game, to get 19-plus sacks in three seasons is pretty impressive. You don't need to "break down film" to make that observation.

[andrew_nyGiants]

I don't think he is worthy. He just wasn't good enough against the run. Leonard Marshall is more deserving than Klecko.

My thoughts EXACTLY!!


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