Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 03, 2024, 09:50:15 AMIs a great WR behind an average QB better, or is a great QB with average receivers better? That is the question

I was reading through Great Blue North this morning and saw this blip and figured I'd share https://gbnreport.com/giants-report-thoughts-on-the-draft/

Maybe there's more hope than some believe 

"...in fact, there have been rumblings that head coach Brian Daboll had been lobbying for the Giants to take a WR with their first round pick, possibly even if one of the top QB was still on the board at that point. Just maybe Daboll recalls that Josh Allen, whom he has been credited with 'developing' in Buffalo really didn't emerge as a top player in the NFL until the Bills went out and acquired a true #1 receiver in Stefon Diggs. Whatever, Giants fans probably shouldn't underestimate how impactful a really good receiver can have on a team.

Indeed, in addition to the Bills' Allen, Joe Burrow didn't really take off in Cincinnati until the Bengals' selected Ja'Marr Chase, his former teammate at LSU with the 6th in 2021, while there questions being asked in Miami whether Tua Tagovcailoa was indeed a legitimate franchise QB before the Dolphins brought in Tyreek Hill and Jaylen Waddle. And we could go and name QBs from Jaylen Hurts to Geno Smith whose careers improved dramatically once given elite receivers with which to work.

And one can also look at the Giants own history. Back in 2008, for example, they appeared to be on cruise control to a possible second straight Super Bowl appearance before Plaxico Burress shot himself – and his career – in the leg and the 11-1 Giants finished the season 1-4 and crashed out of the playoffs in the first round. They were crowned champions again in 2011 with Eli throwing to a couple of Pro Bowl receivers in Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz, only to have the bottom fall out the following season, which coincided with Nicks being injured and never playing at that level again. And while there has been a tendency to dismiss the impact of Odell Beckham, the reality is that Eli had the best three-year run of his career from 2014-2016 during which the Giants had a top 10 offense in both 2014 and 2015 and made the playoffs in 2016. It's also hard not to notice that the bottom really fell out for the Giants in 2017 around the time that Odell was injured. Indeed, the fact is that over the course of his career, Eli was a very good QB when he had special receivers, but was closer to ordinary when he didn't..."

Jolly, I think Daboll probably wanted Maye due to his potential freakish great tools converting into a Justin Herbert or even Josh Allen 20 in the NFL. Short of that, they probably reasoned no other QB really was a clear upgrade to the upside of a DJ if he is given better tools to work with.

The points GBN made about better receivers was on point.

I think the following at least from a potential standpoint can be looked at as a positive:

1. Good offensive minded coaching staff in place,   
2. Good OL coach finally in place,   
3. Decent WR unit with an average to above WR1 in place 
4. Decent enough OL with not too many rookies with long learning curves and some depth in case of injury 

5. A capable enough RB by committee core with some pass blocking ability   ....maybe

I worry about #5 the least in a well constructed pass-heavy scheme and Schoen/Daboll didn't seem to mind losing Barkley, so I think they feel the same way.

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 10:32:29 AMThis requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

If you believe Kafka didn't have issues, how do you explain Daboll seeking to take away (and he did take away multiple times last season) play-calling duties?

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on Today at 10:24:23 AMThe most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system.

I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.

This requires further explanation. Are you claiming the HC and OC are part of the problem?  If so, can you explain their successes in KC and Buff?  I also believe the Giants have some talent that's being hindered by the QB. Is it a coincidence that Robinson started to emerge with the backup QB?  Can we also agree that DJ enjoyed playing with a top 3 LT and RB? 

His support system was indeed below average; however, you lost me on the coaching aspect.  I also think it's a bit of stretch to say his Kitchen was completely bare.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on Today at 10:19:09 AMI mean when I look at the last 5-7 OL coaches we have had that might be the greatest joke of all time!

Most of them are not even coaching OL anymore in the NFL and many of them had very, very weak resumes to boot. That was a horrific job by this organization finding a good one. Now this Bracillo guy his resume and rep when you listen to a bunch of guys who either know him closely or have played under him are absolutely glowing. Been waiting a long time for them to get this position on the staff adequate addressed.

I would argue the O-line coach is as important as your OC and DC.  First off, they are the only position to coach 5 players on the field (6 in heavy tight-end packages), with the possible exception of a DB coach in a system that plays mostly nickel.  Second, I don't think there is a position in the league where prospects come in less prepared for NFL games than O-linemen.  Finally, with the CBA limits, coaching O-linemen has never been more challenging owing to the lack of time in pads.

The most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system.

I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on Today at 10:14:12 AMDJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.

He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)

I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.

I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.

Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?

Brother, the pre season is rarely in indicator on future success; id caution you from trying to glean anything from those pointless exhibitions.

Regardless, I appreciate the conversation and how you carry yourself.  Again, I look forward to future discussions.

Btw, I hope the Giants aren't relying on hope, as hope is not a viable course of action 😝

Quote from: kartanoman on May 03, 2024, 05:04:23 PMWe know you're not a jokin' 'cause neither are we! 

Peace!

I mean when I look at the last 5-7 OL coaches we have had that might be the greatest joke of all time!

Most of them are not even coaching OL anymore in the NFL and many of them had very, very weak resumes to boot. That was a horrific job by this organization finding a good one. Now this Bracillo guy his resume and rep when you listen to a bunch of guys who either know him closely or have played under him are absolutely glowing. Been waiting a long time for them to get this position on the staff adequate addressed.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 01:59:40 AMPeople forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.

The Giants pushing the "Danny Dimes" nickname was a classic PR blunder.   If Gettleman and NYG were savvy, they would have let it leak to one or two draftniks or insiders that they had an interest in Daniel Jones in the draft.  Part of the overall negative reaction to Jones being drafted at 6 is it made the draftniks who failed to predict that look bad (since where players are drafted is really the only measure for people in the draftnik community).   Had there been leaks and some draftniks looked good by calling the pick, the reception would have been at least less negative.

Calling a rookie QB "Danny Dimes" before he even took a regular-season snap just put a bull's eye on Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 10:09:05 AMDid you see what Barkley was paid? 

Yep. There was absolutely a market for Barkley. Not trading him during the season seemed odd. In hindsight it looks even worse.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 01:59:40 AMPeople forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.

DJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.

He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)

I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.

I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.

Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?