Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:37:43 AMIn the 2022 offseason, most considered Daniel Jones a dead man walking.   

Consider:

1) The Giants passed on exercising DJ's 5th-year option

2) The Giants signed Tyrod Taylor who many fans claimed was as good or better than Jones (he did have a Pro Bowl to his resume)

3) Jones had injury issues and needed to prove he could stay healthy

4) Worst of all, Jones was going to have to prove himself behind a mediocre, at best, O-line with no significant receiving targets.  He would get a bit of a tangential boost from Barkley (who already lost something after his major knee injury)

Everyone was writing Daniel Jones off, there was much talk about the QBs in the draft. Only Daniel Jones decided he wasn't ready to be dead and buried.  He dragged his under-talented team to the playoffs and beat the 13-4 Vikings in the hostile Minnesota stadium.  He earned himself a solid contract.

From Daniel's perspective, this is just deja vue all over again.   I am not suggesting that Jones will stay healthy and knock it out of the park.  I am just suggesting we shouldn't be shocked if Jones plays like a franchise QB and takes the team to the playoffs again while at least staying healthy enough.

Jones is a good player. just not good enough at the QB position. he has a lot to prove to everybody this season.


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Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 30, 2024, 06:43:28 PMClearly those who think Jones is this really good, franchise QB who has been a victim of circumstance are not going to change their minds about that, and those who think he is a middling talent aren't going to either.

This is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues.  Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet.  They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022.   On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:41:40 PMThis is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues.  Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet.  They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022.   On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.

I think this is fair.  I wanted McCarthy at 6.  I feel Jones is an injury risk, yet, I have not seen the actual medicals and have not been present for his recovery.  From an above orbit, risk management standpoint, having Jones replacement on hand seemed valid. That said, in this offense in particular, Jones can succeed.  He can throw short passes to playmakers. The best Jones has had is crappy playmakers in a system designed to have them.  Daboll/Kafka system doesn't work without YAC.  I want to see the kid with an average OL and some playmakers.  I think his body ends up betraying him.  If Jones is healthy he will look good in this system I suspect with these playmakers.

Nabers is a beast, a true number 1 changes everything.

Quote from: Thegratefulhead on April 30, 2024, 10:01:19 PMI think this is fair.  I wanted McCarthy at 6.  I feel Jones is an injury risk, yet, I have not seen the actual medicals and have not been present for his recovery.  From an above orbit, risk management standpoint, having Jones replacement on hand seemed valid. That said, in this offense in particular, Jones can succeed.  He can throw short passes to playmakers. The best Jones has had is crappy playmakers in a system designed to have them.  Daboll/Kafka system doesn't work without YAC.  I want to see the kid with an average OL and some playmakers.  I think his body ends up betraying him.  If Jones is healthy he will look good in this system I suspect with these playmakers.

Nabers is a beast, a true number 1 changes everything.

Jones threw down the field in Shurmur's offense and in Duke. His downfield passing according to advanced metrics was really good.

I would suspect with a Bracillo coached OL the guy who took average lines with NE and an injury riddled Raiders line last year to top 10-12 finishes gets these guys playing sound cohesively and much more technically sound as unit.

I heard an football guy once say you build your passing game like a basketball team. It's not a perfect comparison obviously but I love the analogy. Theo Johnson is your Center, Hodgins is your Power forward, Hyatt/Slayton are your 'undersized' speedy small forwards, Nabers is your electric do-it-all shooting guard, and Wan'Dale is your shifty jitterbug Point guard. A lot of gameplans can be formulated when you have so many receiving options with varied size and strengths to their games.

Jones has never had a WR corps like this not even close. In fact he has never had a receiving threat that was pro bowl caliber like ever. The walking corpses of Golden Dome Tate, Kenny 'on a Holiday' Golladay, Darren 'Hit A' Wall-er or Kyle the Red-nosed Reindeer doesn't count.

In theory, this should be a drastically better receiving group and a drastically better offensive line , if nothing because of coaching alone. No rookies starting on this line either.

Again, I present all this not because I guarantee Jones balls-out but quite simply now there is finally a reasonable opportunity in place that he could.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:41:40 PMThis is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues.  Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet.  They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022.   On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.

This is an INCORRECT assessment of those who are questioning Daniel Jones. Speaking for myself, it was not said he is "terrible, or middling and no possibility of having success!"....actually those who are negative on Jones have stated QUITE the opposite!....we are still rooting for the guy and feel he is a good QB but not a franchise QB. Posts like that make me sincerely give pause.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:41:40 PMThis is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues.  Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet.  They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022.  On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.

What a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.

I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality. To wit, I literally noted I could see Jones repeating or improving somewhat on 2022, but you ignored what I actually stated in responding to me in favor of what you find easier to attack.

Divergence of opinions is fine, and indeed healthy. Willfully misstating another's opinion because you disagree with it is dishonest and unworthy of recognition.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 01, 2024, 12:22:29 AMWhat a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.

I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality. To wit, I literally noted I could see Jones repeating or improving somewhat on 2022, but you ignored what I actually stated in responding to me in favor of what you find easier to attack.

Divergence of opinions is fine, and indeed healthy. Willfully misstating another's opinion because you disagree with it is dishonest and unworthy of recognition.

I agree. This was a disrespectful post Mighty.

This topic/thread was put up as click bait. Nothing more. And it succeeded in that.

What does Daniel Jones need to show you this year to prove that he's "the guy?"

Let's say he miraculously stays healthy all year, throws for 4000 yards, 35 touchdowns to 15 ints...do you trust that he's "arrived" and it's the new normal? I'm not sure I would. The eye test matters. I need to see things in his mechanics and how he responds to situations that raw metrics cannot capture. 

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 01, 2024, 12:22:29 AMWhat a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.

I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality. To wit, I literally noted I could see Jones repeating or improving somewhat on 2022, but you ignored what I actually stated in responding to me in favor of what you find easier to attack.

Divergence of opinions is fine, and indeed healthy. Willfully misstating another's opinion because you disagree with it is dishonest and unworthy of recognition.

I'm just going to say one thing about this board that has always frustrated me. Nuance is usually missed or ignored when a forumite's post can be swept up in the current of a major running narrative.

Inevitably the Jones conversation breaks down to a debate about some abilities being coachable and others being innate. While I think there is some merit to this, it is often over-exagerated and becomes a crutch. 

@H-Town G-Fan

That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character.  I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply.  Only this old dog is learning new tricks.  I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it.  So first I went back to read what you wrote:

QuoteI don't consider Jones magically playing like an MVP-caliber candidate to be realistic. It's possible he replicates 2022--maybe even marginally exceeds it

I have a few thoughts on your comments:

1)  I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will not prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.

2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.

Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me.  As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close.   In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.

QuoteWhat a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.

I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality.

I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it.

Quote from: TONKA56 on May 01, 2024, 06:20:37 AMWhat does Daniel Jones need to show you this year to prove that he's "the guy?"

Let's say he miraculously stays healthy all year, throws for 4000 yards, 35 touchdowns to 15 ints...do you trust that he's "arrived" and it's the new normal? I'm not sure I would. The eye test matters. I need to see things in his mechanics and how he responds to situations that raw metrics cannot capture. 

I agree; I think setting statistical goals to decide his fate would be less than ideal.   DJ's performance will need to be properly evaluated in context.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:33:36 AM@H-Town G-Fan

That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character.  I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply.  Only this old dog is learning new tricks.  I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it.  So first I went back to read what you wrote:

I have a few thoughts on your comments:

1)  I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.

2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.

Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me.  As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close.  In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.


What a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.

I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it.

Rich,

If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it. 
 

Quote from: kingm56 on May 01, 2024, 07:50:00 AMRich,

If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it. 
 

Matt, 


MVP is reserved for one or two QBs.   You know that.   That is not remotely the same as potentially being in the top ten.  @tonka was right, once DJ enters the conversation, all naunce is lost.