There is a bumper crop of QBs coming out in this year's draft. Yet there doesn't seem to be enough of them because there appear to be so many teams seeking a QB.
I heard recently (unfortunately, I don't remember who said it) that someone suggested that teams no longer just seek a franchise quarterback (I would define it as a top-20 quarterback). Every team now seems to be seeking an elite 5 QB, and if they don't have one, they are in the QB hunt.
Has the game really changed that much that only teams with a top 5 QB can compete, or is this part of the long tradition of the NFL being a copycat league? Can teams with a solid quarterback and a talented team make it to the Super Bowl (I would suggest the 49ers were one such team)?
So is it wise for teams to feel they need a top 5 QB or bust? Should they be focusing more on overall talent rather than top QB at all cost?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 10, 2024, 08:51:52 AMThere is a bumper crop of QBs coming out in this year's draft. Yet there doesn't seem to be enough of them because there appear to be so many teams seeking a QB.
I heard recently (unfortunately, I don't remember who said it) that someone suggested that teams no longer just seek a franchise quarterback (I would define it as a top-20 quarterback). Every team now seems to be seeking an elite 5 QB, and if they don't have one, they are in the QB hunt.
Has the game really changed that much that only teams with a top 5 QB can compete, or is this part of the long tradition of the NFL being a copycat league? Can teams with a solid quarterback and a talented team make it to the Super Bowl (I would suggest the 49ers were one such team)?
So is it wise for teams to feel they need a top 5 QB or bust? Should they be focusing more on overall talent rather than top QB at all cost?
QB was always the most important position on the field, by a long shot. Now it's more so especially when you see the impact some of these QBs have on games. The reality now is that you can't really expect to win that Super Bowl without an elite QB. Overall talent should of course be paid attention to, but those holes are so much easier to fill than finding that QB. Think of Super Bowl MVPs or even league MVPs. The majority are QBs. They impact the game more than pretty much any other position. There are exceptions. Back in the day, LT's dominance and presence was as effective as a QBs. And I'm sure there are a few other non-QBs who have had that effect. But they are rare. It's all about the QB.
Quote from: katkavage on April 10, 2024, 09:03:29 AMQB was always the most important position on the field, by a long shot. Now it's more so especially when you see the impact some of these QBs have on games. The reality now is that you can't really expect to win that Super Bowl without an elite QB. Overall talent should of course be paid attention to, but those holes are so much easier to fill than finding that QB. Think of Super Bowl MVPs or even league MVPs. The majority are QBs. They impact the game more than pretty much any other position. There are exceptions. Back in the day, LT's dominance and presence was as effective as a QBs. And I'm sure there are a few other non-QBs who have had that effect. But they are rare. It's all about the QB.
I think Andy Reid/Mahommes and Belichick/Brady sort of skew the results (2 is a pretty limited sample size)
When you look at QBs who have made it to the Super Bowl in the last 10 years I would break them down by truly elite vs elite play by virtue of supporting talent
elite
Mahommes X4
Burrows
Brady X5
Wilson
played very well by virtue of talent
Purdy
Hurts
Stafford (especially at that age)
Brady (at over 40)
Goff
Garapollo
Foles
Ryan
P. Manning (at that point in his career)
Newton
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 10, 2024, 09:12:11 AMI think Andy Reid/Mahommes and Belichick/Brady sort of skew the results (2 is a pretty limited sample size)
When you look at QBs who have made it to the Super Bowl in the last 10 years I would break them down by truly elite vs elite play by virtue of supporting talent
elite
Mahommes X4
Burrows
Brady X5
Wilson
played very well by virtue of talent
Purdy
Hurts
Stafford (especially at that age)
Brady (at over 40)
Goff
Garapollo
Foles
Ryan
P. Manning (at that point in his career)
Newton
MG, you can break them down any way you want. This is a QB-driven league, now more than ever. And that second tier you mentioned, with a couple of exceptions, are all very good to elite QBs. Goff, though he is no Mahomes, is a very good QB as is Ryan. They were in the top ten at their peaks and Goff, this year still can be considered top ten. Hurts is just outside the top ten while Newton, that year was certainly top ten. The two outliers are Garapollo and Foles. Purdy, in his second year, is on his way to elite. Time will tell. Really no "average" or below average QBs on that list with maybe Foles and Garapollo being close to average.
Quote from: katkavage on April 10, 2024, 09:18:11 AMMG, you can break them down any way you want.
What exactly does that mean? Are you saying my list is inaccurate, or doesn't it show that the overwhelming number of QBs leading their team to the QB was good but not elite?
You say Goff was good to near elite but the Rams treated him as a throw-in in the trade to get Stafford, so your assessment doesn't match the Ram's assessment.
Sorry, Purdy is not on his way to elite. Purdy is the poster boy for QBs propped up by superior talent. Purdy is a top 10-20 QB who enjoys great protection, outstanding targets, and elite coaching
Reality set in on the Journeymen who never will be.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 10, 2024, 09:26:40 AMWhat exactly does that mean? Are you saying my list is inaccurate, or doesn't it show that the overwhelming number of QBs leading their team to the QB was good but not elite?
You say Goff was good to near elite but the Rams treated him as a throw-in in the trade to get Stafford, so your assessment doesn't match the Ram's assessment.
Sorry, Purdy is not on his way to elite. Purdy is the poster boy for QBs propped up by superior talent. Purdy is a top 10-20 QB who enjoys great protection, outstanding targets, and elite coaching
No, I'm not saying the list is inaccurate. I explained what I felt about the list. We will disagree about Purdy. No way you can determine now, after two years in the NFL, that Purdy is not on the way to elite. Doesn't mean he will be elite, but he certainly could become elite as he progresses. And Goff, the throw-in, took the Rams to a Super Bowl and the Lions to a championship game. He is "near elite," in my opinion and if only the Giants had anyone close to that level of QB play. Most of those QBs, on your list, as I said in my last post, are top ten level, maybe not elite. NFL teams who have QBs, below even the top 15-level, and there are over 15 of them, want to find someone who can reach the top ten. Let's put it this way in terms of the Monopoly games. The QB position is worth "Boardwalk" or "Park Place" in value while other positions are worth significantly less.
IMO there is a shortage of QB's (if you measure by evaluating the percentage of starters who are elite against the number of QB's who are merely serviceable, barely average, or outright useless. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 10, 2024, 12:59:01 PMIMO there is a shortage of QB's (if you measure by evaluating the percentage of starters who are elite against the number of QB's who are merely serviceable, barely average, or outright useless. Bob
I seem to remember a pretty good, but non-"elite", QB whose team won 2 Superbowls against the most elite QB in NFL history by virtue of their defense. What has been done once can be done again. Even moreso when it has already been done twice.
I agree that QB is without a doubt, the most important position on the team. I don't, however, think that you need to have an "Elite" QB to be successful.
Everyone wants a "Mahomes", but let's face it, that's not gonna happen. If you can get one, by all means, go get him, but I think Rich's list proved you can be successful without the best of the best at QB.
I believe building a good, solid, all around team with a solid QB is a more sustainable way to be consistently good, than an having an elite QB with less that average players around him.
I also think that teams do both themselves and the QB's a disservice by not being patient enough with them and letting them develop.
So, my answer to the original question is, No, I don't think there is a shortage of QB's, I think there are too many teams looking for short-cuts to success and believing you have to have an "Elite" QB to win.
Quote from: ozzie on April 10, 2024, 02:26:11 PMI agree that QB is without a doubt, the most important position on the team. I don't, however, think that you need to have an "Elite" QB to be successful.
Everyone wants a "Mahomes", but let's face it, that's not gonna happen. If you can get one, by all means, go get him, but I think Rich's list proved you can be successful without the best of the best at QB.
I believe building a good, solid, all around team with a solid QB is a more sustainable way to be consistently good, than an having an elite QB with less that average players around him.
I also think that teams do both themselves and the QB's a disservice by not being patient enough with them and letting them develop.
So, my answer to the original question is, No, I don't think there is a shortage of QB's, I think there are too many teams looking for short-cuts to success and believing you have to have an "Elite" QB to win.
I think you said it better than I did. =D>
Great minds think alike! HAHA!
Quote from: ozzie on April 10, 2024, 02:26:11 PMI agree that QB is without a doubt, the most important position on the team. I don't, however, think that you need to have an "Elite" QB to be successful.
Everyone wants a "Mahomes", but let's face it, that's not gonna happen. If you can get one, by all means, go get him, but I think Rich's list proved you can be successful without the best of the best at QB.
I believe building a good, solid, all around team with a solid QB is a more sustainable way to be consistently good, than an having an elite QB with less that average players around him.
I also think that teams do both themselves and the QB's a disservice by not being patient enough with them and letting them develop.
So, my answer to the original question is, No, I don't think there is a shortage of QB's, I think there are too many teams looking for short-cuts to success and believing you have to have an "Elite" QB to win.
There are no shortcuts to building a SB caliber team. It take a bunch of parts working together and only one of them is the QB. That's why in this draft we need to focus on building the team. We need as many draft picks as we can get AND we need our front office to have an A+ draft. I'm not so sure any one of the QB's in this draft will become "elite".
Quote from: jimc on April 10, 2024, 04:18:10 PMThere are no shortcuts to building a SB caliber team. It take a bunch of parts working together and only one of them is the QB. That's why in this draft we need to focus on building the team. We need as many draft picks as we can get AND we need our front office to have an A+ draft. I'm not so sure any one of the QB's in this draft will become "elite".
There are no shortcuts and you need to build a team. But like it or not, without the QB, the hardest element to find, you have not much of a chance. You can't plug in mediocrity at that position no matter how good the supporting cast is. Getting your QB is worth at least four position players. He is that important to the success of your team.
Quote from: ozzie on April 10, 2024, 02:26:11 PMI agree that QB is without a doubt, the most important position on the team. I don't, however, think that you need to have an "Elite" QB to be successful.
Everyone wants a "Mahomes", but let's face it, that's not gonna happen. If you can get one, by all means, go get him, but I think Rich's list proved you can be successful without the best of the best at QB.
I believe building a good, solid, all around team with a solid QB is a more sustainable way to be consistently good, than an having an elite QB with less that average players around him.
I also think that teams do both themselves and the QB's a disservice by not being patient enough with them and letting them develop.
So, my answer to the original question is, No, I don't think there is a shortage of QB's, I think there are too many teams looking for short-cuts to success and believing you have to have an "Elite" QB to win.
Contrary to popular belief, Mahomes didn't just happen in a vacuum. He was assisted in reaching his potential as a pro by the best QB friendly head coach since Bill Walsh.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 10, 2024, 05:02:17 PMContrary to popular belief, Mahomes didn't just happen in a vacuum. He was assisted in reaching his potential as a pro by the best QB friendly head coach since Bill Walsh.
Despite being the "best QB friendly head coach" in 30 years (in your estimation), Reid never won the Superbowl until he had Mahomes. His reputation when he left Philly was a coach who could not win the big one, despite very talented squads (recall the putative "Dream Team"). Mahomes has done a ton for Reid's legacy. My statements also do not imply anything other than Reid is a very good coach.
Quote from: katkavage on April 10, 2024, 04:28:54 PMGetting your QB is worth at least four position players. He is that important to the success of your team.
I don't quite get the correlation, but of course the QB is important. You can win with a good cast of characters and an average QB. We have done it.
Quote from: jimc on April 10, 2024, 05:46:27 PMI don't quite get the correlation, but of course the QB is important. You can win with a good cast of characters and an average QB. We have done it.
When?
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 10, 2024, 05:15:09 PMDespite being the "best QB friendly head coach" in 30 years (in your estimation), Reid never won the Superbowl until he had Mahomes. His reputation when he left Philly was a coach who could not win the big one, despite very talented squads (recall the putative "Dream Team"). Mahomes has done a ton for Reid's legacy. My statements also do not imply anything other than Reid is a very good coach.
You could also point out that Reid never won a Super Bowl without Steve Spagnoluo as his DC or Travis Kelcy as his TE
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 10, 2024, 06:48:53 PMYou could also point out that Reid never won a Super Bowl without Steve Spagnoluo as his DC or Travis Kelcy as his TE
Why would I? QB is the most important position on the field and Mahomes is a generational superstar. This was a thread about QBs. The other comment mentioned Reid's ability with QBs and I was identifying that the primary reason he has such a reputation is Mahomes.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 10, 2024, 07:13:58 PMWhy would I? QB is the most important position on the field and Mahomes is a generational superstar. This was a thread about QBs. The other comment mentioned Reid's ability with QBs and I was identifying that the primary reason he has such a reputation is Mahomes.
I bring that up because I believe the conventional wisdom is that quarterbacks are given too much credit for victories and defeats. While QB is the most important position on the field, it's just a single position on a team with 22 starters (and more on special teams and key subs).
Reid's ability to coach up QBs is generationally great, Reid was enjoying success before he ever met Mahommes
Like someone wrote
Every team.wants a top 5 QB
The only problem is there are only 5 of them
You need a QB with the IT factor
There are a lot of amazing QB but its always
If this happen
If this didnt happen
Only if this happened
The 49ers should of won both of those superbowls
The reason why they didnt
When they had to make that throw they didnt
The throws also.werent hard to make
They just didnt step up
It happens
Like in basketball
Big shot horey had it
7 game winning shots
7 rings
Was he the best ? No, he wasnt
But he had that It factor
Quote from: jimc on April 10, 2024, 07:57:37 PMHostetler 1991
33 years ago. A different era. And, like I said earlier there were exceptions when another player besides QB were so dominant. The Giants had one of those players on that team. LT. But the reality is, it's a QB-centric league now. More so than ever before.
Quote from: katkavage on April 10, 2024, 06:41:16 PMWhen?
2007 and 2011. Those Superbowls were built on a great defense more than a great QB. Take away those 2 playoff runs and Eli is an average QB with a .500 winning percentage. And if scouting QBs is hard enough, scouting a QB that can go on 2 playoff runs that are out of character with the rest of his career is impossible - it is a matter of luck and we got lucky.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 11, 2024, 03:42:45 AM2007 and 2011. Those Superbowls were built on a great defense more than a great QB. Take away those 2 playoff runs and Eli is an average QB with a .500 winning percentage. And if scouting QBs is hard enough, scouting a QB that can go on 2 playoff runs that are out of character with the rest of his career is impossible - it is a matter of luck and we got lucky.
I agree about luck. And exceptions now and then. But you can't deny history. The overall history and fact is that it's it's about the QB. And Eli during that period was a top ten QB.Ypu can't get there with average.
Quote from: katkavage on April 10, 2024, 08:09:52 PM33 years ago. A different era. And, like I said earlier there were exceptions when another player besides QB were so dominant. The Giants had one of those players on that team. LT. But the reality is, it's a QB-centric league now. More so than ever before.
I'm just not feeling that the QB's in this draft are worth giving up picks for. I've said it before, none of them may prove to be better than what you already have. To invest draft capital to take one, the FO needs be in "love" with the guy.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 10, 2024, 05:15:09 PMDespite being the "best QB friendly head coach" in 30 years (in your estimation), Reid never won the Superbowl until he had Mahomes. His reputation when he left Philly was a coach who could not win the big one, despite very talented squads (recall the putative "Dream Team"). Mahomes has done a ton for Reid's legacy. My statements also do not imply anything other than Reid is a very good coach.
What exactly is your point?