In last years draft , Schmitz and Joe Tippman from Wisconsin were considered the two top centers in the draft and many pundits lauded them as future all pros.
In evaluating Schmitz' performance last year , he was not given a very good one.
I am not an offensive line judge , far from it , but can someone whose knowledge of offensive lineman and their performance is far, far greater than mine please tell me what were Schmitz' shortcomings, what does he have to improve in, is he still in the conversation of a possible All Pro and our center for years to come and might be considered a poor draft choice, ( too early ?) ? . Centers seem to have lengthy careers in the NFL.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on April 11, 2024, 03:23:29 AMIn last years draft , Schmitz and Joe Tippman from Wisconsin were considered the two top centers in the draft and many pundits lauded them as future all pros.
In evaluating Schmitz' performance last year , he was not given a very good one.
I am not an offensive line judge , far from it , but can someone whose knowledge of offensive lineman and their performance is far, far greater than mine please tell me what were Schmitz' shortcomings, what does he have to improve in, is he still in the conversation of a possible All Pro and our center for years to come and might be considered a poor draft choice, ( too early ?) ? . Centers seem to have lengthy careers in the NFL.
JMS first year struggles were completely predicable; in short, he needed a full year of strength training/growth to handle the massive DTs that populate the NFC East.
He also had a revolving cast either side of him and injury issues. We'd hope to see a significant step forward year two but unless and until it happens we just don't know.
I dunno.....I hope we're not whistling past the graveyard with this guy. His poor first year went under the radar because all our attention was focused on how bad our RT was. Just as we assumed (hoped) Neal would make a year 2 jump, we're in the same position with Schmitz. I'm very worried he's not what we hoped for and even more worried that due to his high draft pedigree, we'll stick with him longer than we should.
I don't know. Minnesota has a top notch weight training program. He clearly was not strong enough. Does he get more time in the NFL to weight train than in college?
He is a concern from my standpoint.
Let's not focus on all the negatives. He did play well on many snaps too. It's an adjustment and a learning process. I wouldn't label him a Will Hernandez just yet, who btw went on to have success elsewhere.
The book on JMS, when he was drafted, stated that he was an older prospect who was a high-floor/lower-ceiling type. His play last season was disappointing. I agree with
@londonblue. What sort of player he ultimately becomes is to be determined.
The offensive line has to work as an integrated team. They have to be coached to execute blocking schemes which enable offensive plays to yield their greatest potential.
Having said that, knowing the issues between the head coach and the offensive coordinator, how well would you think Kafka and Johnson's planning of the offensive line blocking schemes into the offensive game plan went? We witnessed it first-hand in the water-logged 0-40 whooping Dallas put on them. Did our new center even have a hope or a prayer in that game? Did any of them on the line, for that matter? Then add the injuries and Schmitz is playing with new lineman on either side of him. How can anyone judge a rookie in that cataclysmic environment and dare to suggest they are concerned about him, apart from his general welfare.
Have most of us here forgotten that, going into last season, many were touting this young man as a mature, responsible leader who would, one day, be wearing a captain's C on his uniform? What's changed about him that is so concerning?
If I were JMS, I'm counting my blessings I survived that experience, can turn the page and look forward to a new coach in Bricillo, and new and experienced linemen, who will help me get back on my development track and allow me to show the Giants, and their fans, the skills I have which made them want to draft me in the first place.
I'm not the least bit concerned. Quite the contrary, I'm excited for the young man, as well as the tackles that they have a professional coaching them now with a track record for development and success.
Peace!
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 11, 2024, 08:43:01 AMLet's not focus on all the negatives. He did play well on many snaps too. It's an adjustment and a learning process. I wouldn't label him a Will Hernandez just yet, who btw went on to have success elsewhere.
Very true, Ed. Living in Cardinal country, Hernandez had a near Pro Bowl season. He is a southwestern kid and probably didn't adapt well to the northeast. He loves it here in Arizona and he's close to his family in New Mexico. It could have been something as simple as that, sad as it may seem.
Peace!
Quote from: kartanoman on April 11, 2024, 08:50:42 AMThe offensive line has to work as an integrated team. They have to be coached to execute blocking schemes which enable offensive plays to yield their greatest potential.
Having said that, knowing the issues between the head coach and the offensive coordinator, how well would you think Kafka and Johnson's planning of the offensive line blocking schemes into the offensive game plan went? We witnessed it first-hand in the water-logged 0-40 whooping Dallas put on them. Did our new center even have a hope or a prayer in that game? Did any of them on the line, for that matter? Then add the injuries and Schmitz is playing with new lineman on either side of him. How can anyone judge a rookie in that cataclysmic environment and dare to suggest they are concerned about him, apart from his general welfare.
Have most of us here forgotten that, going into last season, many were touting this young man as a mature, responsible leader who would, one day, be wearing a captain's C on his uniform? What's changed about him that is so concerning?
If I were JMS, I'm counting my blessings I survived that experience, can turn the page and look forward to a new coach in Bricillo, and new and experienced linemen, who will help me get back on my development track and allow me to show the Giants, and their fans, the skills I have which made them want to draft me in the first place.
I'm not the least bit concerned. Quite the contrary, I'm excited for the young man, as well as the tackles that they have a professional coaching them now with a track record for development and success.
Peace!
Thanks
Quote from: kartanoman on April 11, 2024, 08:50:42 AMThe offensive line has to work as an integrated team.
kart-man: Please re-post this sentence about once per week until the season starts. lol
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 11, 2024, 09:32:22 AMkart-man: Please re-post this sentence about once per week until the season starts. lol
And then twice a week during the season. ;)
Quote from: Sem on April 11, 2024, 10:35:14 AMAnd then twice a week during the season. ;)
It's bad enough I have to preach it to engineers integrating components and subsystems into a system. That's another story I'll share in depth when I retire in a decade and change.
Peace!
The end result requires teamwork, but I think there is enough individual performance by linemen than they can be evaluated individually
Quote from: kartanoman on April 11, 2024, 11:13:20 AMIt's bad enough I have to preach it to engineers integrating components and subsystems into a system. That's another story I'll share in depth when I retire in a decade and change.
k-man: Does your final sentence mean you're going to change after you retire in ten years -or- you're going to retire in slightly over ten years? =)) Bob
John Michael Jingleheimer Schmidt
Quote from: londonblue on April 11, 2024, 07:06:52 AMHe also had a revolving cast either side of him and injury issues. We'd hope to see a significant step forward year two but unless and until it happens we just don't know.
Exactly. AND it shows what nonsense it is when fans say, 'pick this guy and we'll have an all pro for ten years'.
When I watched his tape in college, he seemed to be pretty good technically; however he looked to be physically on the smaller side and kind of weak, at least not muscular. So I agree that if he can bulk up a bit and spend time in the weight room, he should be able to visibly improve his game.
Here is what McGinn's scouts said about JMS prior to the draft
1. JOHN MICHAEL SCHMITZ, Minnesota (6-3 ½, 303, 5.31, 2): Sixth-year senior. "I have him ahead of Tippmann," one scout said. "He's my best center. Has a wrestling background. Very tough. Big and physical. He reminded me some of that kid that came out of Wisconsin, Travis Frederick. Has some athletic limitations but I think he can fit in both a gap and a zone scheme. He's a good enough athlete. He's played a lot of football. He's a plug-and-play, Day 1 starter." After redshirting in 2017, seldom getting on the field in '18 and starting four games in '19, he started all 31 games at center from 2020-'22. "Plays on his feet, works to finish, solid in the run game and pass pro," a second scout said. "It wouldn't surprise me if he starts right away. He has guard flex potentially, which is a big thing." Wonderlic of 22. "More fun to watch than he is talented," a third scout said. "We have him later in the draft. Center only. He's stiff and bends at the waist. Balance and body control are an issue. He's on the ground too much. Now, he is a XXXXX. He'll try to kill you on every play. But plays out of control." Arms were 32 5/8, hands were 9 ½. "Heart and hustle," said a fourth scout. "Gets in the way but nothing overly athletic about him. Just a smart, tough, heady player. He'll start." From Flossmoor, Ill.
I'm far from an expert on O line technique, but all I know is most rookie centers who were as highly rated as he was coming into the league do way better than that as rookies, and plenty go into less than ideal circumstances. Moreover, he's already 25 years old.
I heard a lot of excuses for Neal after his rookie season too. I have Schmitz down as a genuine concern.
FWIW he was never as good as Tippman. If you're using Tippman to judge JMS you're setting him up for failure. Tippman is a future pro bowler and JMS is going to be a good NFL starter. If we picked him over Tippman I'd be pissed but the Jets robbed us of that chance.
Technically, the farther and more lateral he has to go, the less effective. Good drive blocking and combo blocking and I like how busy he was in pass pro. Always looking to help G's and hit somebody.
The negatives I saw? Outside zone liability. With OZ you gotta stay even with the LOS and start arcing up the field. I saw him consistently taking false steps backward (bad trajectory out of his stance) and getting beat by the DT. That's a tough block - the reach block - against some athletic DTs who are sometimes already shaded ahead of you. If the C can't cut the guy off (or loses depth) the play is ruined by penetration.
This was a key play in the Daboll/Barkley offense (it was considered Barkley's best play) even though they sucked at blocking it. When you look at the G's they added, maybe they are going to more of a gap scheme this year, which seems to fit Neal better too. 4 of the 5 projected starting OL do not move laterally well.
To me, it looks like an OL that is going to struggle again picking up stunts and twists if they try to throw the ball without establishing the run. If they pound downhill with gap runs and Singletary keeping them on schedule, it can be an effective OL IMO.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 11, 2024, 11:16:39 AMThe end result requires teamwork, but I think there is enough individual performance by linemen than they can be evaluated individually
I used to work out at the same gym Bart Oates worked out in. He was very approachable and I once asked him if a fan watching television could tell who on the OL screwed up. He told me that unless one knew what the individual responsibilities were, it was impossible to tell who screwed up.
We draft a guy in the second round, and he steps in immediately and starts 13 games. Maybe he was worn out blocking Dexter Lawrence in practice every week.
I hope we draft 6 more guys like that this year.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 11, 2024, 12:20:57 PMk-man: Does your final sentence mean you're going to change after you retire in ten years -or- you're going to retire in slightly over ten years? =)) Bob
I should never have pursued that Systems Engineering Masters Degree. My brain is warped for all eternity now! But I love it so much I can't decide if I should retire, re-program my brain, do both or just go with the flow ...
Things that make me go .... :hmm:
Peace!
Quote from: 4 Aces on April 11, 2024, 09:06:35 PMWith OZ you gotta stay even with the LOS and start arcing up the field. I saw him consistently taking false steps backward (bad trajectory out of his stance) and getting beat by the DT. That's a tough block - the reach block - against some athletic DTs who are sometimes already shaded ahead of you. If the C can't cut the guy off (or loses depth) the play is ruined by penetration.
Aces: Right, but it's a typical rookie error, especially against an elite NT or DT. I'm certain he'll fix it this season. Rookies are caught between a rock and a hard place getting overpowered when they don't back up & getting getting beat around the side when they do. Bob