The If's and But's About It

[MightyGiants]

Guess they didnt have McCarthy or the other QBs left rated as high as the media or some fans.

Or the Giants are higher on Jones and Lock than many fans.  The 3 QBs came off the board shortly after the Giants picked.

[WheresDayne]

I hope J.J. McCarthy is a stud!   

[bamagiantfan]

That was 12 years ago but if Jones was throwing for 300 yards and 2 tds a game we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I like Phil Simms' comment from years ago. In the NFL, statistics lie. If the team is playing well on both sides of the ball, the QBs shouldn't have big numbers at the end of the game. Its the teams that struggle to win (or not) that are throwing the ball for big numbers. Everyone is looking for the next Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes was a mediocre QB statistically in 2023 (yes, I said it) due in large part to a bunch of mediocre WR receivers. Compare his stats in 2023 to Jones in 2022. They are pretty similar, except Mahomes threw 150 more passes for about 10 more touchdowns and 10 more interceptions. Mahomes was able to grind out first downs with short passes and and his legs when he had to for wins. Kinda like Jones in 2022.

No, I'm not comparing the overall talent of Jones to Mahomes but there is a formula for winning that has won Superbowls and Jones has shown he is capable of making the plays that win games, which may not include big stats. It also included horrible offensive line play which was/is the one thing that has to be fixed for ANY QB to be successful in NY.

I think uconnjack got it right. THe pieces around him from the Offensive line to the recievers at all positions prohibit Jones from being successful without a great Defense.

[Jclayton92]

I like Phil Simms' comment from years ago. In the NFL, statistics lie. If the team is playing well on both sides of the ball, the QBs shouldn't have big numbers at the end of the game. Its the teams that struggle to win (or not) that are throwing the ball for big numbers. Everyone is looking for the next Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes was a mediocre QB statistically in 2023 (yes, I said it) due in large part to a bunch of mediocre WR receivers. Compare his stats in 2023 to Jones in 2022. They are pretty similar, except Mahomes threw 150 more passes for about 10 more touchdowns and 10 more interceptions. Mahomes was able to grind out first downs with short passes and and his legs when he had to for wins. Kinda like Jones in 2022.

No, I'm not comparing the overall talent of Jones to Mahomes but there is a formula for winning that has won Superbowls and Jones has shown he is capable of making the plays that win games, which may not include big stats. It also included horrible offensive line play which was/is the one thing that has to be fixed for ANY QB to be successful in NY.

I think uconnjack got it right. THe pieces around him from the Offensive line to the recievers at all positions prohibit Jones from being successful without a great Defense.

The 1,000 yards and 12 tds difference is pretty significant. My problem isn't with Jones physically as he has the tools, I just see someone that can't mentally get over the hurdle of an offense that he's asked to do very little In. He can't read the field like he needs to or process things like he should for a Qb going into year 6.

In today's game you need a 4,000 yard 20td + qb to be relevant and we just don't have that currently.

[kingm56]

I like Phil Simms' comment from years ago. In the NFL, statistics lie. If the team is playing well on both sides of the ball, the QBs shouldn't have big numbers at the end of the game. Its the teams that struggle to win (or not) that are throwing the ball for big numbers. Everyone is looking for the next Patrick Mahomes. Patrick Mahomes was a mediocre QB statistically in 2023 (yes, I said it) due in large part to a bunch of mediocre WR receivers. Compare his stats in 2023 to Jones in 2022. They are pretty similar, except Mahomes threw 150 more passes for about 10 more touchdowns and 10 more interceptions. Mahomes was able to grind out first downs with short passes and and his legs when he had to for wins. Kinda like Jones in 2022.

No, I'm not comparing the overall talent of Jones to Mahomes but there is a formula for winning that has won Superbowls and Jones has shown he is capable of making the plays that win games, which may not include big stats. It also included horrible offensive line play which was/is the one thing that has to be fixed for ANY QB to be successful in NY.

I think uconnjack got it right. THe pieces around him from the Offensive line to the recievers at all positions prohibit Jones from being successful without a great Defense.

I appreciate your perspective, bama!  However, I have to disagree with your statement regarding Mahomes having mediocre season.  I also believe his stats prove the opposite of the point you're trying to make.  In point of fact, Mahomes finished in the Top 10 of almost every major NFL passing category, without a top-tier WR.  By definition, a top 10 performance is anything other than mediocre.  This also wasn't his first year playing without WR talent; he also played without WR talent last year, when he put up all world numbers.  Indeed, he had an off year for Mahomes; however, it was hardly mediocre.  In short, QBs akin to Mahomes and Brady can still put up top 10 numbers without quality WRs.   

Yards    #6
Comp    #3
TDs    #8
PCT    #9
RTG    #12
QBR    #8

[bamagiantfan]

I appreciate your perspective, bama!  However, I have to disagree with your statement regarding Mahomes having mediocre season.  I also believe his stats prove the opposite of the point you're trying to make.  In point of fact, Mahomes finished in the Top 10 of almost every major NFL passing category, without a top-tier WR.  By definition, a top 10 performance is anything other than mediocre.  This also wasn't his first year playing without WR talent; he also played without WR talent last year, when he put up all world numbers.  Indeed, he had an off year for Mahomes; however, it was hardly mediocre.  In short, QBs akin to Mahomes and Brady can still put up top 10 numbers without quality WRs.   

Yards    #6
Comp    #3
TDs    #8
PCT    #9
RTG    #12
QBR    #8

Great rubuttle.

You left out a few,

INTs   #4 Only three QBs threw more. I'll agree with you that 4th most interceptions is not mediocre. 
Y/A    #19 I don't consider that good or bad. If that is where  or when the ball needs to go because that is how Defenses are playing you, then that is where it needs to go, yet we kill Daniel Jones for similar numbers.

ATT #3 which of course drives all numbers, both good and bad.

[bamagiantfan]

In today's game you need a 4,000 yard 20td + qb to be relevant and we just don't have that currently.

Um, Lamar Jackson?

[kingm56]

Great rubuttle.

You left out a few,

INTs   #4 Only three QBs threw more. I'll agree with you that 4th most interceptions is not mediocre. 
Y/A    #19 I don't consider that good or bad. If that is where  or when the ball needs to go because that is how Defenses are playing you, then that is where it needs to go, yet we kill Daniel Jones for similar numbers.

ATT #3 which of course drives all numbers, both good and bad.

Great discussion, my friend!

I purposely left out ATT and Y/A as I don't view them as major stats, nor can be they be categorized as good or bad.  I did omit INT and should have included it; however, I don't believe his higher than normal INT invalidates his aggregate top 10 performance.  Do I agree he had an off year for Mahomes...Yes!  However, I don't view a top 10 statistical year as being mediocre.   

Having said that, I do appreciate someone who doesn't accept what pundits and 'expert' tells us.  Your cogent response made me think this morning; I appreciate that! 

[MightyGiants]

Great discussion, my friend!

I purposely left out ATT and Y/A as I don't view them as major stats, nor can be they be categorized as good or bad.  I did omit INT and should have included it; however, I don't believe his higher than normal INT invalidates his aggregate top 10 performance.  Do I agree he had an off year for Mahomes...Yes!  However, I don't view a top 10 statistical year as being mediocre.   

Having said that, I do appreciate someone who doesn't accept what pundits and 'expert' tells us.  Your cogent response made me think this morning; I appreciate that! 

Yards per attempt is a pretty critical stat, from what I have heard from NFL people.  Matt, I think the problem with hand-picking individual stats is that you can often miss the big picture.  That's why stats like QB rating and QBR are useful, as they are cumulative stats that assist and cover all aspects of play and prevent creating statistical subsets that can ultimately be misleading.

[Jclayton92]

Yards per attempt is a pretty critical stat, from what I have heard from NFL people.  Matt, I think the problem with hand-picking individual stats is that you can often miss the big picture.  That's why stats like QB rating and QBR are useful, as they are cumulative stats that assist and cover all aspects of play and prevent creating statistical subsets that can ultimately be misleading.

Do Qbr and Qb rating really matter if the qb is only averaging 45 yards a quarter or 180-190 yards a game?

[MightyGiants]

Do Qbr and Qb rating really matter if the qb is only averaging 45 yards a quarter or 180-190 yards a game?

Absolutely, QB rating and QBR are more qualitative stats that show how well a QB takes advantage of the opportunities given versus the raw stats that are most dependant on attempts

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I think DJ is a very accurate deep ball thrower.  In my opinion his problem is a fear to gamble to make that throw.

Am I wrong?

Nope...you are not wrong. DJ didn't get the nickname "Dimes" because of an erratic arm that was weak. In his first year he spent a lot of time looking at the turf or the sky. He led the NFL in interceptions. He was told he needed to cut down on turnovers, so he did what he was told and when no receiver was open and he had a couple of beasts about to fill his face mask with dirt and grass, he took off on his own becoming a bit of a legend for a running QB (but that was out of life-saving necessity)

But we all know the story and even Mara admitted that the team did everything in their power to screw the kid up. Every year he played under different head coaches, offensive coaches, QB coaches, OL coaches, etc., while always running for his life with a substandard receiving cast and was told "not to take chances and do NOT make turnovers". He did what he was told...and he still does what he is told

I'm still excited to see what he can do with a real offensive line that offers protection and some receivers that know how to make things happen. I'm not ready to throw out the baby with the bath water because I must have instant gratification that comes by going to the QB store and purchasing a franchise QB

[kingm56]

Absolutely, QB rating and QBR are more qualitative stats that show how well a QB takes advantage of the opportunities given versus the raw stats that are most dependant on attempts

Fundamentally, it's about moving the sticks (yards) and scoring points (TDs).  QBs who throw for lots of yards and TDs,  give your team the best chance to win championships, espically in the modern era.  I suspect that's why yards, TDs, and SBs are the focus for determining HoF worthiness, as it relates to QBs.  .

These QBs comprise the NFL(s) Top 10 ALL-TIME QB RATING:

Deshaun Watson
Dak Prescott
Kirk Cousins
Jimmy Garoppolo

It matters; however, not as much as yards and TDs.

[TONKA56]

The 1,000 yards and 12 tds difference is pretty significant. My problem isn't with Jones physically as he has the tools, I just see someone that can't mentally get over the hurdle of an offense that he's asked to do very little In. He can't read the field like he needs to or process things like he should for a Qb going into year 6.

In today's game you need a 4,000 yard 20td + qb to be relevant and we just don't have that currently.

Forget about the statistics, the reading of defenses, going through progressions, looking off safeties, and passing accuracy.

The number one thing that drives me insane about Daniel Jones is his lack of vision in the pocket when things get messy. He doesn't know where his blockers are and he certainly doesn't know where the rushers are. If the backside rusher makes contact with him he is almost always surprised and this results in a turnover far too often. He's got to get better at knowing without looking. For all the comedy surrounding Devito, watch how well he positions himself inside the pocket and only takes off at the absolutely correct time to abandon it. It's really his best ability.

Jones looks like an athlete "trying" to play quarterback. He doesn't just need better protection. He needs late 70s Raiders-early 80s Skins-early 90s Cowboys level of pass blocking.

But hey, hope springs eternal.

[bamagiantfan]

"The number one thing that drives me insane about Daniel Jones is his lack of vision in the pocket when things get messy."

I see it more of Jones not having time to see the play develop in a pocket that is always messy. I'll give Kafka some blame for that. Barkley wasn't great at blitz pickup but he was okay. Too often Barkley was in the pattern or wasn't on the field in a 4 wide set which, with the Giants offensive line woes, just begs the Defenses to bring extras. Kafka's personnel for protection schemes don't often match the playcalling. In simpler terms, if you count to two and the pocket is already collapsed, how is Jones supposed to get the ball out of his hand on a deeper route.

The play calling in 2022 was a natural reaction to the Offensive line injuries and issues and it worked. For some reason they abandoned that last year and started running routes further down field. It just didn't work, mostly because the problems on the line had not been fixed.

When Arizona went into a Prevent Defense we saw what the offense could look like. Unfortunately, the Giants were unable to handle the pass rush in normal situations and the O-line, QBs, and receivers all looked like they can't play.