Big Blue Huddle

Honestly, I do not understand how anyone could not see the reality of the offense is as an indictment on the play of both, the Oline and QB's fault. 

to put it kindly both have not played well. 

Guy in the Howie Long Jersey got dropped.

Raiders and 49ers fans are nuts but I'm sure it is everywhere. 

Two Packer Game Stories :

1- In 2013 I wore my LT jersey to Green Bay an extremely wobbly drunk guy was laying into to me the best he could, his friends were very nice and apologized for him and gave me two beers to ignore him.

2- The Green Bay vs Gman game the day after Christmas in 2010 ELi tossed 4 INT's, the Giants lost 50-15 or something like that.   The female Packer fans next to me bought me a beer after each INT, gave my a hug and kept trying to put my head on their shoulders to cry on.  In the 3rd quarter, I was almost rooting against Eli.

As I age the midwest approach is much more my style

Rich
I agree with your sentiments.
I thought about entering into the discussion about the reality of Jones environment permanently altering his developmental ceiling and to what extent. It's a real concern. A beat dog never forgets what a raised hand has done in the past

No matter what the line must be fixed for Jones or for whomever is next.  

JT - I agree and the Giants are light years from providing that. 

What specific impact are you expecting to see a new line associated with DJ the QB?

I will start by listing the skills an elite QB has and relate those to DJ.  I will conclude with which of the ones he does not have have imo and what impact a better O line will have.

The skills and attributes associated with a top level QB are listed below:

1. Superior arm strength and accuracy

2. Anticipation - pocket presence

3. Anticipation - 6th sense connection with receivers, ability to place ball where only the receiver can get it

4. Learns offense and runs it with poise

5.  Studies, is a tiredless student of the game

6. stays calm in the midst of pressure and makes sound wise decisions

7. Quickly scans the whole field finding open receiver

8. Runs 2 minute offense

9. Leadership on the field, making others better

10. Appreciates and supports team and staff

11. Ability to lead team back to victory in 4th quarter

12. Rises to all occasions in all games, more so in big games

13. Wins championships or at least competes in them

14. Confidence

15. Accountability

16. Intelligence

17. Footwork

18. Decision making

19. Physically tuff

I am sure I missed some and or overlapped in the listing process.

Jones has some of these no doubt, I would say he has:
1. Intelligence
2. Accountability
3. ability to lead team back in 4th
4. Studies, is a student of the game
5. Arm strength to an extent.
6. leadership
7. Physically Tuff

I would say he is lacking in:
1. Accuracy
2. Pocket Presence and 6th sense
3. Running offense with poise
4. Stays calm and makes sound decisions
5. Quickly assess full field
6. Rises to all occasions and does not step up in big games
7. Confidence

My problem is a better O line will not fix many of his bigger issues.

1- Accuracy - Accuracy is considered one of the skills most likely to not improve through a career, you have it or you do not. It can be improved a little based on what you are asked to do but history says it is what it is.

2- pocket presence, Jones has below average pocket presence. hearing ghosts and running when no need exist and not running when he should.

3- Stays calm and makes sound decisions - He gets flustered under pressure and continues to fail to identify critical presnap reads (empty coverage and uncovered pass rushers, overhang pass rushers, hot reads, etc).

4- Runs offense with poise - IMO he does not, he is running a very basic offense with very easy reads and checkdowns. This has occurred through multiple coaches too, he runs an offense with training wheels built into it to cover up the line mostly.  That is a scary fact about what different coaching staffs think he is capable of handling.

5-Quickly assesses field- IMO he does not.  He does not do this well presnap or post snap often missing the open receiver.

6- Aside from the Vikings playoff game he typically does not rise up in all games.  To be fair to Jones at times he has been damn near perfect but too few for a 5th year player.

7- Confidence - IMO the way he reverts back to his bad habits when under pressure shows a lack of confidence and poise.


So my question is what skills do you feel Jones is currently not posing or excelling with that will be improved with better line play?  Or will better line play simply allow a better running game and the team will be better, thus buffering against Jones's shortcomings.

I will go first:

I can see the accuracy slightly improving associated with being able to make better reads and setting his body for the throws (not being on the run). But nothing major. He is missing throws now with no pressure.

I do not see his pocket presence increasing for him.  He simply is too smart for his own good and has anxiety and fears failure.

The biggest issue for me right now is the poor mental side to DJ's game.  A better line will ultimately reduce the times he is asked to deal with pressure situations that wear on a QB's mental state and that is a big deal no doubt but only against average competition.  Top defenses are going to bring it and he will need the mental skills to play the chess match.  The skills he has failed to display to date, as we saw last year vs Philli.
Confidence can certainly be increased with more and more successful repetitions.  I see the Oline helping with this, but will it last in games that matter most?

Ultimately, getting to the question, will a better line simply make the team better with DJ being a more functional QB (2022-2023)?
Or will a better line allow DJ to develop into an elite QB?

In short I see Jones's being a better QB behind an average to above average line and ultimately the Giants offense being better and leading to more wins against the lower 2/3rds - 3/4's of the league's teams. But I do not see him excelling with the traits that will help him win against the best defenses in the toughest of games. I simply do not see an improved O line allowing for Jones to start excelling at the critical traits carried in an elite QB.

Correct or not, and I am not implying I am correct, but that is how I am looking at Jones as the QB of the Giants when I give me 2 cents on Jones.

And so we are all clear I think the Oline is embarrassingly horrible, nothing short of a complete disgrace.

I just see both issues existing simultaneously, at this point a correlation and not causation.

Which coach is responsible for this level of disfunction?
Its Daball's team, plain and simple.  

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 11:02:19 AMIt's a similar story when topics relating to the offensive line come up.  We all pretty much agree that the line has been bad yet it gets taken that if you're being critical of Jones that means you're giving the offensive line a pass.  It's creating a straw man that doesn't exist while at the same time accusing others of doing the same thing.

The line is horrible, beyond horrible and the reality is Jones is not doing anything to buffer against that and at times he is actually making a bad line worse. He isn't identifying empty coverage, overhang players, hot reads, needed coverage adjustments, etc... 18 sacks in the past 2 games and at least 6 of them are directly associated with his inability to do his job presnap.  Add in the lack of accuracy and he simply leaves too many plays on the field as a result of his shortcomings.

If Jones doesn't demand 82 mill over 2 years, he gets more of a pass.  He demanded $'s based on future upside and he isn't delivering on the contract he wanted and got. It amplifies everything, including his critics.

The mess on the line and the impact on the rebuild and the impact on DJ's development is on Schoen, Dg before him and Reese before him. 

Quote from: T200 on October 09, 2023, 10:17:27 PMI don't frequent other message boards but I'm curious if other fan sites have this much bickering over their players.

We're all fans of the same team yet the infighting is off the charts. I cram to understand. 

Omg yes

Just seeing the various Giants social media threads it's as bad if not worse

People are :
Hypersensitive
Desire to be first to declare something
Desire to be correct
Desire to label others as pro or anti
Too invested in their opinion proving correct 

Bad seasons always lead to this 

You wait Tim, If giants draft a QB wait until he sits his first year behind jones and wait for the fighting that occurs then

 

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 03:40:31 PMThe argument wasn't who was better or worse as a player.  It's been clear and still clear Jones is a better player than Brown ever was.  The argument and topic is which QB took more heat and the answer should be Brown for those of us who were around for both.

I know, I was rushing and actually posted in wrong thread, my point that was unclear was brown deserved more heat. 

The team was good and just needed him to step up and not be horrible.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 10:53:11 AMHe did get it worse.  Back then the media never deflected to the team around him it was always about his performance.  So this idea that Jones has had it worse than any player in the history of the franchise is just flat out false.

Brown was in a much better situation and simply could not produce.

First of all, Brown started on bench for 2 seasons behind Hos and then Simms.

Brown had some very good Mike Nolan defenses and also benefited from an much better running game. 

Brown was a deer in headlights and the problem with the offense. 

Back then even the defensive players had turned on Brown and knew he was the problem.


1992 Bench                        Defense #26    Running Game #1       
1993 Bench                        Defense #1      Running game # 10
1994 Starter                       Defense # 8    Running Game #10
1995 Starter                       Defense #16   Running Game #13
1996 Starter                       Defense #10   Running game # 24
1997 Benched for Kennel     Defense # 4   Running game # 7

Right now Giants have the 7 pick, they are a long way from TOP 3. 

Getting a top QB or OT must be a priority. 

All that being said, whomever they pick they need to hit on it

Brown was in a much better situation and simply could not produce.

First of all, Brown started on bench for 2 seasons behind Hos and then Simms.

Brown had some very good Mike Nolan defenses and also benefited from an much better running game. 

Brown was a deer in headlights and the problem with the offense. 

Back then even the defensive players had turned on Brown and knew he was the problem.


1992 Bench                        Defense #26    Running Game #1       
1993 Bench                        Defense #1      Running game # 10
1994 Starter                       Defense # 8    Running Game #10
1995 Starter                       Defense #16   Running Game #13
1996 Starter                       Defense #10   Running game # 24
1997 Benched for Kennel     Defense # 4   Running game # 7

It certainly is not an environment to develop a QB in.  Although I must say it would seem Jones would get better at presnap reads, adjusting coverage and hot reads.  DJ is very smart, studies film and this should become a strength with the amount of practice he is getting at it.  Yet each week the same mistakes.

That skill does not seem to be getting better.  At some point the QB needs to negate and/or make the defense pay and despite the opportunities in each game it doesn't happen enough. 

Simply put the book on the Giants is stop the run and make Jones beat you. Until he can make the reads, adjust the coverages and hit the hot routes; nothing will change.  That exist outside of line play. It is not just Jones, San Fran did the same to Dak last night.

Just my two cents that even with better line play Jones will struggle with Top 10 defenses because he can not do this.

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 03, 2023, 01:28:21 PMOrlovsky was just on McAfee's show saying of the 11 sacks he put 4 on the OL and 6 on the QB, either not getting the protection right or scrambling into the sack when he didn't need to. 

(the last one being that lateral play to campbell that is considered a sack for some reason)

Making a bad situation worse?

That should not come with the pricetag it is...

2-14

Fumbling inside the 15 and throwing the pick 6 after he telegraphed his pass is all on him and a fairly common trait.

Jones is damaged goods in the sense that he can't take chances and go for it anymore.  He has been conditioned to play it save to protect the offense from the mistakes of yesteryear. 

Furthermore, once the pressure comes he unravels and starts having his PTSD flashbacks and reverts back to his old habits; missing open receivers by playing it save and checking down, literally missing receivers with poor throws and starring down receivers telegraphing his intentions. 

Everything must be going well, damn near perfect for him to succeed and that is not the trait of a stud franchise QB.

The O line is a huge problem no doubt and I am not understating this.  The Oline is horrible, simply an embarrassment.  That being said Jones is a problem too and has not lived up to 40 mill.  In asking and pushing for that much $ he lost the ability to get more line help with the finite $'s available to the team and put himself into this spot.

He will be off the team after this contracts 2nd year.  Lets hope the next QB has a line to develop behind.